Concerns about the new EULA
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-09-11 04:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I spent a day or so on unleashed but honestly it just seemed like a place for racist to be racist and get away with it. Made me sick so I didn't go back.
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I don't think you have a very good understanding of things.
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Pfft, you don't know that for certain. They might add a sub-clause saying that if your pr0n folder is over 3.5 gigs in size, you may or may not be eligible for a ban. After all, with that much 'extra curricular' media on your computer, how much time can you possibly spend giving them money? ;P|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
To the VERY small number of people who thing NCSoft would use this to do naughty things to your PC, do get some level of common sense, please? What POSSIBLE reaason could they have for doing so? They REALLY don't care just how big your pron folder is, you know?
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I kid, obviously. I've seen a lot of over-arching and very base covering text in EULAs all over the place. I agree with LevitatingLargeGentleman, they have absolutely no reason to do anything malicious. Why bother doing something like that and not just losing a customer, but many, many customers and risking a run in with law enforcement when they could just NOT do anything malicious and keep getting an income?
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If you're not going to do it why not put your money where your mouth is? Is there a reason the EULA couldn't read something like:|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
And stepping in...
We have no plans to introduce malicious, harmful or intrusive software to your computers. While we do remain vigilant in our fight against exploits (we will be introducing a new anti exploit measure, server side, come Issue 21, but more about that later) we also respect your right to privacy and will not gather any information without your explicit permission (i.e.; you agreeing to send us crash/bug/whatever feedback via the launcher functionality). |
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| You consent to the foregoing monitoring and acknowledge that NCsoft may conduct such monitoring, including but not limited to monitoring in-Game communications and Message Boards provided by NCsoft as well as third-party Message Boards and the like. You also acknowledge that NCsoft may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring, including but not limited to action under Section 5, and that NCsoft has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring. (d) NCSOFT HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO MONITOR OPERATION OF ANY SERVICE, CONTENT OR SOFTWARE AT ANY TIME AND IN ANY MATTER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO MONITORING COMMUNICATIONS AND COMMUNICATIONS INTERFACES, STORAGE DEVICES, RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY OR CPU PROCESSES RELATED TO HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME. SUCH MONITORING MAY ALSO INCLUDE, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, MONITORING FOR THE PURPOSES OF DETECTING SOFTWARE UNDER SECTION 8(c) or 8(e). YOU CONSENT TO THE FOREGOING MONITORING AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT MAY, AT ANY TIME, AND IN ANY MANNER after seeking permission from the user in each instance of communication, COMMUNICATE ANY INFORMATION BETWEEN HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME AND ANY MECHANISM NCSOFT MAY CHOOSE FOR SUCH COMMUNICATIONS. YOU ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AS A RESULT OF SUCH MONITORING NCSOFT MAY IN ITS SOLE AND ABSOLUTE DISCRETION TAKE ANY ACTION, OR NO ACTION WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO: (i) CHANGING ANY PORTION OF THE SERVICE, CONTENT OR SOFTWARE; (ii) SEEKING RECOURSE AGAINST YOU BY WAY OF ANY PROCEEDING NCSOFT DEEMS APPROPRIATE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES; AND/OR (iii) DETERMINING THAT YOU ARE NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL PROVISIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND TERMINATING YOUR ACCOUNT UNDER SECTION 3(b) OR SECTION 3(c). NCSOFT HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NO OBLIGATION, TO PROVIDE YOU WITH NOTICE BEFORE SUCH TERMINATION. |
"we wont do X and we understand your objection to X"
Is little reassurance in the face of a legal statement of:
"We reserve the right to do X any time we like"
(for values of X akin to "Harvest data from your machine and send it anywhere we like")
*sigh* All of this will not make me stop playing. All the tantrums about Freedom not being "free" and now this. Look the big W has had something like this in the Eula for a while now and it's still at the top. When it came out for them there was a huge uproar, but you know what people continued and still continue to play. If you don't like or trust this development team to do the right thing then stop playing. You have the right, but coming onto these forums to droll up drama is getting really old and very much like the big W forums.
Fact: Zwill has already stepped forward on this matter and it's your choice to take his word or "leave" it. I hate to say it, but that legalese is going to be pretty common no matter where you go from now on to prevent our accounts from being hacked. Our personal information, which the developers already have btw since we have been subscribers. They have a right to take measures to not only protect the game, but us as well and that's what I view this as. You can choose to think the negative and spread conspiracy "thoery", and it's just that "thoery" and more assumptions, all you want, but this Development Team has treated us fairly over the years and I, for one, will continue to give them my support.
I'm sure everything will be just fine: I covered my computer case with tin foil!
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Truthfully, I think 'PhiloticKnight' AKA 'Westley' is quitting because corruptors are soon going to be appearing blueside at level 1 and his precious defenders will be outclassed, outgunned (as it ever was) and lose the moral superiority of being a hero AT.
I can see him crying himself to sleep at night over that last one.
Just a vague thought on this general matter, because I know a little bit about contract law in the UK:
To enter into any legally binding contract in the UK, both parties must demonstrably have the "capacity to contract" at the time the contract is agreed. It includes all sorts of requirements (including mental health), but the real kicker is "must be aged 18 or over at the time of entering into the contract".
Which ultimately implies that, within the UK at least, the EULA is NOT binding in any way on any person aged 17 or less.
The entire document is unenforceable on such players.
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Dear NCSoft,
Pr0n is free now. Please stop downloading mine.
I have included several jpgs and movies in my pr0n folder of me parading around naked wearing only Statesman's helmet thingy. So, fair warning.
sincerely,
all_hell
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NCSoft: We've noticed some rather 'interesting' patterns in your account usage, and we'd like to use our monitoring software to check that you aren't cheating. If that's okay with you?|
Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Is there a reason the EULA couldn't read something like:
YOU CONSENT TO THE FOREGOING MONITORING AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT MAY, AT ANY TIME, AND IN ANY MANNER after seeking permission from the user in each instance of communication, COMMUNICATE ANY INFORMATION BETWEEN HARDWARE YOU USE WITH THE GAME AND ANY MECHANISM NCSOFT MAY CHOOSE FOR SUCH COMMUNICATIONS. |
Botting goldfarmer: No, 'fraid not.
NCSoft: Oh, okay, then. Sorry to bother you. Have a nice day!
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NCSoft: We've noticed some rather 'interesting' patterns in your account usage, and we'd like to use our monitoring software to check that you aren't cheating. If that's okay with you?|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
NCSoft: We've noticed some rather 'interesting' patterns in your account usage, and we'd like to use our monitoring software to check that you aren't cheating. If that's okay with you?
Botting goldfarmer: No, 'fraid not. NCSoft: Oh, okay, then. Sorry to bother you. Have a nice day! |
Botting goldfarmer: No, 'fraid not.
NCSoft: Oh, okay, then. Your account has been terminated. Sorry to bother you. Have a nice day!
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Originally Posted by all_hell
NCSoft: We've noticed some rather 'interesting' patterns in your account usage, and we'd like to use our monitoring software to check that you aren't cheating. If that's okay with you?
Botting goldfarmer: No, 'fraid not. NCSoft: Oh, okay, then. Your account has been terminated. Sorry to bother you. Have a nice day! |
Yeah. No. Having to go to any and every suspect to ask for permission to spy on them individually doesn't work. Because it alerts the user in question that they're being monitored. All they have to do is lay off the proscribed behavior for a little while or swap to a "clean" install.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Nope, because it also asks that if you are under the age of 18 that you have obtained permission and that the Guardian/Parent/Person over age of 18 has given permission for the minor to agree.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
Just a vague thought on this general matter, because I know a little bit about contract law in the UK:
To enter into any legally binding contract in the UK, both parties must demonstrably have the "capacity to contract" at the time the contract is agreed. It includes all sorts of requirements (including mental health), but the real kicker is "must be aged 18 or over at the time of entering into the contract". Which ultimately implies that, within the UK at least, the EULA is NOT binding in any way on any person aged 17 or less. The entire document is unenforceable on such players. |
((Which means that otherwise we could see whole armies of under 18's botting the game away and not allowed to be banned....))
Flip side, if they did get banned, then NCsoft could potentially be open for several complicated court cases if the parents decided to act on behalf of their children.
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Are you sure you didn't go to the KKK's website by mistake or something?|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
I spent a day or so on unleashed but honestly it just seemed like a place for racist to be racist and get away with it. Made me sick so I didn't go back.
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Because if so, that might explain the problems you had.
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I don't understand why people think are so completely incapable of separating these two concepts.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
To the VERY small number of people who thing NCSoft would use this to do naughty things to your PC, do get some level of common sense, please? What POSSIBLE reaason could they have for doing so? They REALLY don't care just how big your pron folder is, you know?
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- I think NCSoft will do things I would not want them to do to my personal computer and/or the data on it.
- I want to give NCSoft permission that would allow them to do things I would not want them to do to my personal computer and/or the data on it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Thanks a lot for that post. Even though I wasn't worried, I must say that an official word on this is helpful.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
That being said, it's important that you, as the customer, know our response, especially in regards to something as sensitive as individual privacy.
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I'm sure thus virtual Seer network won't actually lead to any of you "disappearing"
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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nah, we'll just be taken on "vacation" |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm sure thus virtual Seer network won't actually lead to any of you "disappearing"
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Players will be "sent overseas" to play other NCSoft games, but we'll never hear from them again? |
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
nah, we'll just be taken on "vacation"
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
*nod* a video will surface months later of people in a crowded internet cafe
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Grok context, much? I was talking about EULAs for websites. You also conveniently ignored the part where I said I install software when using the software is the point of visiting the site. CoH's client kind of blatantly qualifies.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
 ORLY? |
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| Honestly, I'm not too hot about it either. But I understand the reason they're phrasing it this way. |
I'm sympathetic with their cause, but I'm still not interested in abdicating my privacy to them to support it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Outside the OP itself, I don't think this thread is very "toxic". Oustside that one post, there's really not much doomcrying. There's just some "yeah, I really dislike this" and some "I don't see the problem" Outside the OP, this thread is less harsh than some of the ones about ATs and powersets.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Zwill, I appreciate your reply, but I don't think it'll help. If anything, you just added this already toxic thread to the community digest.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes. Yes I do. And you missed it.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Grok context, much?
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| I was talking about EULAs for websites. |
And, last time I checked, the game client wasn't a website.
So you seem a bit confused about exactly what point you're trying to convey.
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| I'm sympathetic with their cause, but I'm still not interested in abdicating my privacy to them to support it. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Yes. Yes, I did. My parents are totally down with it. They also gave me permission to buy a car on credit and purchase liquor and tobacco for them as well. Trust me, I absolutely asked them and they said Yes. Cross my heart.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Nope, because it also asks that if you are under the age of 18 that you have obtained permission and that the Guardian/Parent/Person over age of 18 has given permission for the minor to agree.
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What?
This is one of those things that 50 courts could interpret 50 different ways. I rather doubt that a minor's inablility to contract gets trumped if the minor then asserts that the parents are okay with it.
On the other hand, the Supreme Court has routinely engaged in logical gymnastics that would embarrass a kindergardener, so who knows? The actual answers to questions about being overbroad and unenforcible will likely be provided after extensive litigation.
Example: When I went to rent an appartment in order to attend the university, someone had sued a landlord for the filthy conditions that allowed cockroaches and other vermin to flourish. The state supreme court had just ruled that every lease had an unwritten but implied Warranty of Habitability: the landlord was promising that the premises did not contain any conditions that would undermine your health and that the premises could be occupied safely. So my lease stipulated in about six places (which I had to initial) that I Happily, Freely and Without Coercion was WAIVING the Warranty of Habitability and that was Just Swell with me.
About the time I graduated, events had progressed to where the state supreme court ruled further (after extensive litigation, etc.) that the Warranty of Habitability could NEVER BE WAIVED, and anything purporting to do so was ABSOLUTELY UNENFORCEABLE. Coming years later, as it did, probably was not a lot of help to those whose cases had been dismissed under the voided clauses.
There is no way to exactly tell where this will wind up, but I would expect that if NCSoft took any of the extreme privacy-busting actions that have been suggested, ie, with no relation to CoH and they looked at your private stuff, that the EULA would not protect them a bit. I would not be surprised, however, if some of the anti-botting measures stood up. But where the lines would be drawn and how far NCSoft would actually be allowed to go, I have no clue. We will see where the courts rule, as I would guess that provisions like these will get litigated.
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"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Movies teach us that ALL webcams have motors to rotate them and backdoors that allow hackers and shadowy government agencies to turn them on at will, even when the computer is off. You'd better just unplug the damn thing. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's why my webcam is always turned sideways when I'm not using it. My PC may sporadically decide to turn it on for no reason (**** you, L4D2, for turning on my webcam even when you don't need it!), but so long as it's not motorised, it can't turn around to look at me. Nyah!
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As IANAL I can't tell you the effect that such laws have on games and services that cease to operate, however, I do know how they impact theft of virtual items.
A EULA is just a contract that says "There either aren't laws that cover this or the laws that exist require us to get your permission, so that's what we're doing".
I'll say this again because people don't seem to be getting it, but a EULA cannot permit either party to break local laws, nor can it criminalise legal behaviour. All that it *can* do it to set out terms that, if breached, could lead to account termination or - in the extremes - civil penalties.
*AND* all of the above is dependent on the EULA actually being ruled as legal and enforceable by a court in your local jurisdiction, which is fuzzy at best in most cases.
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