Freedom? Hardly

No. If there's a debatable issue here, it is not in playing word games with people about what "buy" means. It's in directly addressing the desire for ownership at a fixed price.

If you purchase a one-month Architect license, you are not "buying" the Architect. You are renting it. If you subscribe to the game, you are not "buying" the incarnate system. You are renting it.

It's basically belittling to treat people who dislike renting games as people who are just too stupid or too greedy to appreciate what they've been offered.

Whether any individual player cares for the available option or not, the Premium membership does offer alternatives - either rent Architect/Consignments/Inventions at a nominal monthly rate or "purchase" it it by achieving the appropriate reward level. Whether that purchase price is an appropriate one or a better deal than renting those game systems is a question subject to individual taste.

I don't really care what anyone's leanings are one way or the other but I do appreciate when people deal with the real issues instead of setting up straw men with false issues and then knocking them down and pronouncing the issue "dealt with".

Right now, there are some systems that can be purchased outright. The morality system is one such system. Signature arcs is another. There are other systems that can be rented individually, or "earned" permanently through purchases of paragon points. There is one system that can only be rented and only by VIP's - the incarnate system.

Those are the issues. If you want to address them then please be good enough to address the real issues. I've alluded to one of those issues before - some people just don't care to rent their game. Those people have some options with most systems, but not with all systems.

The program managers at Paragon/NCSoft have spent at least a year preparing for this, so they have some good ideas and what they feel are good reasons for doing things this way.

Should they offer other alternatives? Maybe. The game supports vouchers that give per-character access to features. If I have five characters who are all under level 10 and one character who is level 30 then I may not care to pay $6/month to rent global access to invention/market game systems that benefit one character, but I might be willing to pay $10 to purchase permanent access to those features for that one character.

I see the license rentals as an experiment. It's something new in this game that I've never encountered in another game. If it turns out to be a failure after six months, they can always change policy and start offering permanent licenses for sale or offering vouchers as a purchase option.

Complaining won't change it BECAUSE it's an experiment. Until the results of the experiment are known, there's no point is complaining about being one of the test subjects.

The devs have reasons for reserving incarnates to VIP. In the short term, they're probably good reasons. Over the long term, they'll adapt their policies to the trends that their sales figures indicate that they should be following.

In the end, premium players have options about almost all features. It's up to them to decide how palatable the options are. I just ask both sides that if you're going to discuss/argue about it that you make your arguments about the real issues and not about made-up issues or about the character of the people that you're arguing with.

Ok, I don't know about you, but I didn't actually work for any of my vet rewards. I basically paid $45 each for them and now they'll be worth $15. Plenty of things I've paid for get devalued over time (cars, books, movies, most of my video games except for Panzer Dragoon Saga, and the good majority of the comic books I bought in the '90s) and I don't see how this is really all that different.

Heck, I'll keep on getting stuff faster now as well so fun times about that.

(Forum logout ate my reply, so here goes again.)

Thank you. "Sorry, we're fresh out of limited IO's, but here's an invention license for only $2 a month." And you know what's that called.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not really saying that this is bait and switch. That would imply that Paragon is doing it deliberately, and I don't believe that. I just hitched a ride on that term when someone posted it because that's what I think some people will feel.

"Limited" is not at all descriptive in this case. I assume it's meant to tell that there's a tier at which you get the system, but it doesn't do that. It's just confusing, because if the invention system is "purchasable" for free players and "limited" for Premium, this implies that there are parts of it you don't need to pay for, not that at some point you'll get the system for free.

By the way, "purchasable" is also confusing in this context. Players won't expect to rent systems, they'd expect to unlock them or buy limited number of uses for them. That's how it goes in other games and that's what "purchasable" means in other parts of the table (such as Going Rogue access).

To a large extent, yes. People might still be disappointed, but they'll have time to digest it. There's real need for expectation management here. As I said before, I was very excited about going back to my characters when Freedom was announced, then disappointed when I read about the IO's, then came to terms with it. I'm still disappointed, but I changed my plans to fit the situation (play new characters instead of old), so that I'll still be happy with Freedom. If I only found that out when I started to play, my reaction would likely have been much stronger.

Knowledge helps people prepare. Add more details, add a specific section to the FAQ about going back to play old characters, what limitations will be on them, and what solutions (get to tier 5 or buy MM and Controller, get to tier 7 or license inventions, perhaps even add the suggestion to use a second build).


I still think the concept itself (renting a system) doesn't fit a "free to play" game (don't argue that it's hybrid, please). I think that limiting the invention system could be done better, and I discussed elsewhere the benefits I see in letting players continue to use IO's (one of these benefits, IMO, is that it would make more money for Paragon). But yes, providing more information would IMO do wonders to prepare people for the game. There's a lot of information on these forums (in particular the beta forum) which isn't available on the site, and I think it should be there. Hopefully it will appear there some time before Freedom.

Understood but with a couple caviats/observations...mainly one.

With the purchase of game time/PP/etc. you earn tokens over time. As has been pointed out $15.00 spent is $15.00 spent in the eyes of NcSoft...and tokens are rewarded. While the dollar amount to unlock the [insert feature here] varies it is on a scale that is traceable to a given monatary transaction and therefore bought. One can get to that tier by a straight purchase or by spending money over time but they do get there under Freedom.

In that respect one still buys the [insert feature here] for a given dollar amount. If you spead that $15.00 over one month or twelve it's still the same, is it not?

I wasn't attempting to belittle or riducule and I'd like to make that clear. I was attempting to establish a view of what would be a reasonable fee - but I feel you're also pointing to a reasonable time frame for that fee.

Is that accurate?

There IS a license to play Incarnate content. It's called a monthly subscription. You pay it, you can run Trials to your hearts content.

That's a great move by the devs, I'd say. It's a game; "work for it" doesn't fit. The generation of players who don't want to work hard at their games already exists. Make the game a better fit for them and you'll get more players and more money. If you can do that while still maintaining a high enough difficulty for those who want it, you're golden.

Such as?

And by my calculations, for the amount of time I played, my payments were something like 6 times what a subscription would have cost me for the same time.

They made a pretty smart business decision.

that
I am someone who would be classed as a non subscriber but willing to return if I like what Premium offers, and willing to spend money in the shop. the money is not really a bother for m. it does irk me that I would have to rent rather than purchase certain items.

I'd be happy purchasing Incarnate access on an individual character basis

Being a "dedicated" player is something that is without value. You cannot devalue something that lacks intrinsic value.

Yes but the trick of that is that there are things you really must buy from the store if you want to be effective. I don't want to talk about the number of bells, twigs, and cakes I've bought over there. And the sidekicks. I go through those like crazy too.

I think what people need to do is suggest on the Suggestion forum purchase options of things that would remain active when they revert to Premium status.

Personally I feel Incarnate stuff as the end game content is the kind of thing that ought to require being a subscriber since it is the end game content while most other stuff is easily in the realm of someone who may simply be dabbling or curious about the game.

As I understand it you really cannot casually do Incarnate stuff unless you plan to live a few lifetimes which has resulted in some people not being happy with the solo/casual path of incarnate rewards.

Limited could mean lots of things, but when you're not sure, you're not supposed to assume it means what you want it to mean, and then act disappointed when its not. And we're not supposed to be especially sympathetic to people who interpret ambiguity in that fashion.

And in this case, limited means you can buy them from the store, but the in-game invention systems including normally crafted inventions will not work without an unlock license. It is entirely reasonable to describe that as "limited access." It is definitely not "no access." The incarnate system is, at the moment, correctly described as "no access."

If any of those numbers are greater than zero, it is a waste for anything 99% of potential players have no chance of ever seeing.

Out of curiousity how much would you pay per character to unlock Incarnate access on a Premium account? I am just thinking if I am reading the company's mind about why they don't it could be something like a lifetime sub price for some MMOs in the $200 to $300 range if they were to go that way.

I bought one cake and zero of everything else you just listed. Sounds like you were trying to solo.

Wouldn't have needed the cake if my plate wearing cleric didn't do that underwater maze.

Buying the content was what cost the real cash over there. New zone = $10. Fight a new dragon? $10.

That's what "purchasable" means, and that's listed for free players. Therefore "limited" can't mean that. I think it would be good to listen to some wise words posted here: "Limited could mean lots of things, but when you're not sure, you're not supposed to assume it means what you want it to mean".

Heh, not for the 1% that get it, it isn't.

Wait, what in the game do 99% of the people have NO chance of even SEEING? It must be something I've.. er.. never seen before. Which would make sense given the argument but I still wanna know what it is.

Are you prepared, then to withdraw your statements that:

and

(emphasis mine)

Because if not, I stand by my original statement.

Actually, the fact that free players show "purchasable" means by definition "limited" in that context must mean at least that. It suggests that Premium players have additional options, and they do: they can also earn access to the invention system through the paragon rewards system, for example. Free players by definition cannot.

Limited isn't limited to only what I happen to type in this post. But it does mean, among other things, that you can purchase invention enhancements. Far from the free listing excluding that meaning, by definition all options available to free players are necessarily included options of Premium players.

O.O

I didn't know that! I've done the arc too.

*runs off to log on*

I was actually making the argument that the COH set up was superior to the other game's. I was ignoring the content purchases for two reasons, 1st, we have unlockable quests and zones in Freedom with First Ward and Signature Arcs (Obviously many less of them, another point in COH's favor), and 2nd, I am not really clear on what is and is not available over there for free since I am a VIP who bought the expansions before the switch over. (Possibly the best $200 investment I have ever made. )

I started here on launch day, so the only players that have been here longer are the ones in beta. And I didn't "work" for a single thing I have received as a Veteran. I paid for it, over the last 7+ years. If someone else wants to pay for it too, but in a lump sum, more power to them. I have had a lot more fun buying the Vet Rewards over 88 months then they will doing it in 1 day.

I don't even see them as being devalued so much as Pre-owned. I have had my use out of them, let others enjoy them too.

I am not sure if you are referring to DDO or LOTRO here, but if it is the latter, they needed people like you to make up for people like me.

So if IOs are the important factor to you, why not simply "renew your subscription" whenever you have a few weeks that you feel like playing CoX, but instead of paying $15, as you've had to do the last 7 years, simply pay $2 to use the invention system that month? Then let it lapse (as you have previously done with your sub) until you feel like playing again?

How is this not a bargain?

I chose your post to quote but I was responding to a trend, so I probably should not have done that. For that, I apologize for appearing to single you out.

My primary quibble was people saying that you can "buy" access to things by going VIP when nothing is "bought" as a VIP. It is rented. Telling people who WANT to buy permanent access to "buy" a subscription is not solving any problems (from their standpoint) or even addressing the source of their discontent. It's saying that their discontent is unwarranted and dismissible.

It's fair to say that premiums who want IO's have choices to buy SBE's or earn Paragon Rewards. It's not fair to say "you do have a purchase option - purchase a subscription". A subscription is not a purchase. When you cancel it, you have nothing and that is what the premium person is complaining about.

When someone says " This Sux0rz! I want it all and a pony and I want it for nothing!" then sure, they're being unreasonable. Many people who complain about this or that about the premium plan are treated as if they said that, when they actually said something rather different.

No plan will please everyone and many people will say "I paid before! That ought to count for something!" All you can do for those people is point at Paragon Rewards and say "That's how much it counts for." Trying to convince them that they should be satisfied with a program that doesn't satisfy them is a waste of energy, pretty much. Best to just let them vent and calm down or not as they see fit.

If someone has a legitimate discussion point, then by all means discuss it. Just discuss the game, not the person, IMO, and give anyone you respond to the benefit of the doubt. If they perceive themselves to be reasonable, then treating them as being unreasonable is not likely to sway them very far.