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Just because you drop a ton of money on something instantly does not mean you are dedicated. I know plenty of people who drop a ton of money into hobbies that last a few months and then drop them like a hot potato. Dedication means you've wholly and earnestly set yourself aside for a task or for a person. Where money comes into that has no bearing on being dedicated toward a game. |
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Let me ask this question: who's the more dedicated customer, the one who spends $15 over several years to equal $x, or the one who spends $x up front? Both are giving NCSoft the same amount of $x.
Have I been against players being able to buy Vet Rewards in the past? Yes. But that was before the entire game switched to a F2P model. Arguably, with a F2P model, being able to purchase Vet Rewards with money makes sense. We're already monetizing everything else, after all, including access to things like /tells to Invention Licenses and purchasing entire IO sets outright. By all means, if someone wants to drop a few hundred dollars / euros in the Paragon Market to earn more Paragon Reward tokens, more power to them, IMPO. |
What I am getting at that in their pursuit of chasing the dollar they've devalued the idea of what it means to be a dedicated player. No longer is there anything to set anyone apart. Now you can just buy your way toward vet rewards rather then having to work for it.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Common and Uncomoon IO sets will be purchasable from the Paragon Market, but attuned to an account and only trade-able with other characters on the same account. This does NOT apply to Rare or Very Rare IO sets. See this link for details on which sets will be available.
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Originally Posted by Machariel
Wait, do you mean the ability to purchase IO sets off the market / merit vendors per normal, or will people be able to generate them out of nowhere with the paragon store for $$$?
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Both are available:|
Originally Posted by Machariel
Wait, do you mean the ability to purchase IO sets off the market / merit vendors per normal, or will people be able to generate them out of nowhere with the paragon store for $$$?
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1) The invention system can be purchased on a monthly basis, as can the Auction house and the Mission Architect systems. Prices are currently set at 120 points for Inventions, 120 points for the Auction House, and 400 points for Mission Architect.
2. Uncommon enhancement sets can be purchased from the Paragon Market at a price of 100 points for each enhancement, or the entire set can be purchased at a rate of 80 points per enhancement (Crushing Impact costs 480 for 6 enhancements, for example). Note that these enhancements will level with you, and cannot be traded or sold (they can, however, be transferred to other characters on your account).
Based on initial screens at comic-con the AO (Archetype Origin) enhancements will be for sale in the Paragon Market (the enhancements leveled with you and were account locked like the uncommon sets I just mentioned).
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Nobody ever "worked for" vet rewards in the past. It was strictly a matter of the passage of time and of giving the company $15 every month.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
What I am getting at that in their pursuit of chasing the dollar they've devalued the idea of what it means to be a dedicated player. No longer is there anything to set anyone apart. Now you can just buy your way toward vet rewards rather then having to work for it.
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Now, you give them the $15 whenever you feel like it. If you somehow feel compelled to give it to them in multiple-chunks at once, well, that's your choice now where you didn't have the choice before.
If you want to talk about things that set people apart or that are somehow valuable because people had to "work for them" then you're going to have to come up with a better yardstick than vet rewards.
Your problem is that most such examples (Like, for instance, buying the cape/aura unlock at level 1 for all of your characters) are not going to offend vets. The vets are going to say "I don't have to level up to 20 for the umpteenth time before getting a cape for my new hero? Hellz yeah! Sign me up!"
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There should probably be an asterisk next to Limited that points to a more detailed explanation. That is, if NcSoft is trying for full disclosure up front.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
Limited is a bit vague. In this case it means: pay $2 a month for an Invention License, or use 27 Reward Tokens for a lifetime license. Or purchase attuned IO sets from directly the store. Of course, that's all very wordy. Perhaps they can make a Knowledge Base article on this subject
 In any case, Limited does seem to imply some sort of limits  |
I can't think of anyone, outside of maybe badge collectors like myself, really caring about veteran rewards as they stand right now on live.
The past 2 rewards for me have been trivial boosts I didn't need (A boost in prestige gain? What is this, issue 6?). I have another one coming next week that thankfully and finally brings me a useful reward in Return to Battle.
The idea that people look at Veteran Badges as a gauge of how good players are is a myth, too. I've been on many teams with people who have the full suite of vet badges yet still had no clue how to play their characters thanks to AE farming or powerleveling.
These changes mean nothing to me. They mean even less since I get to keep the original veteran reward badges I've earned AND I get the new badges on top of it.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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From where I sit, the value of a dedicated player to any game studio is the amount of money one gives to them. Does it really matter if they give the studio a few hundred dollars only to leave the game a few months later? Not really, as long as there are enough players paying to keep the game going and enough money management by the studio to bank funds for lulls in revenue / subscribership.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Just because you drop a ton of money on something instantly does not mean you are dedicated. I know plenty of people who drop a ton of money into hobbies that last a few months and then drop them like a hot potato. Dedication means you've wholly and earnestly set yourself aside for a task or for a person. Where money comes into that has no bearing on being dedicated toward a game.
What I am getting at that in their pursuit of chasing the dollar they've devalued the idea of what it means to be a dedicated player. No longer is there anything to set anyone apart. Now you can just buy your way toward vet rewards rather then having to work for it. |
Mathematically speaking, ( $x / t) * t still equals $x, regardless of if t (time) is one day, six months, or one decade.
If you want to "set yourself" apart in an MMO, do so through experience, through actions, and through "being a mensch". The value of a player is not measured in Vet Reward badges; I've known plenty of good players with few Vet Rewards and plenty of crappy players who have been around for years.
What should a player "work towards" in an MMO? Having fun. Period. As long as it isn't at the expense of other players. Why should I care if someone dropped a boatload of money to get the Sands of Mu, so long as they're not kill stealing or griefing me?
I have to agree with SlickRiptide:
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
If you want to talk about things that set people apart or that are somehow valuable because people had to "work for them" then you're going to have to come up with a better yardstick than vet rewards. |
Besides, if tenure were an accurate measurement, I have more of it, so according to your logic, my argument is better than yours
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Oh, phew. As long as the rare and VR still have to be obtained via normal play that's okay. Thanks for the link |
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Common and Uncomoon IO sets will be purchasable from the Paragon Market, but attuned to an account and only trade-able with other characters on the same account. This does NOT apply to Rare or Very Rare IO sets. See this link for details on which sets will be available.
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That's cool. As long as they leave their money here when they go!|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Just because you drop a ton of money on something instantly does not mean you are dedicated. I know plenty of people who drop a ton of money into hobbies that last a few months and then drop them like a hot potato.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
What I am getting at that in their pursuit of chasing the dollar they've devalued the idea of what it means to be a dedicated player. No longer is there anything to set anyone apart. Now you can just buy your way toward vet rewards rather then having to work for it.
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Seriously, why would that matter?
Let me play devil's advocate here: wouldn't it be better for all teams if more members of said teams had Return to Battle? Who cares how they earned it as long as they had it.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Eh, I'm not too sure - after Assemble the Team became common, most people neglected to take Recall Friend. Meaning no one COULD recall in incarnate trials (Return to Battle DID work last I saw [don't have it for another two months or freedom's launch, whichever comes first]) - I see the same thing happening here - everyone has a self rez, so let's skip our team rezzes!|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Let me play devil's advocate here: wouldn't it be better for all teams if more members of said teams had Return to Battle? Who cares how they earned it as long as they had it.
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A self rez on an hour timer is problematic - sure my Brute would love that, but my Blaster could care less - he uses his RoTP once every 15 minutes, and that's being very lucky/conservative.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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To be fair, some people (former subscribers included) already have a second build that is slotted and used.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Every character over level 10 has 2 builds available. They can simply switch to build 2 and slot it with SO's and when/if they activate/unlock IO's they can flip back to build one. Why would they be forced to destroy IO's?
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I'm not all up-in-arms about any of this nor against the way they are handling it (I'm actually for it), but I can see that something could maybe be done to slide returning players in a little more smoothly.
Again... if not... It isn't wrong to me. They'll either have to pay for IO access (either through subscription or the $2/month option) or slog through respec'ing and/or slotting up a new build.
Having zero personal attachment to this argument... I can see the potential negative impression made with returning players under those conditions.
My only answer to it, so far, is to offer a very short (no more than 10 days) period of working IOs before they get shut off. Let them jump in and have fun before they have to go and respec and such.
Anyway... We can't really just say, "Let them use their second build" as plenty of players who IO'd their builds already used their second builds as well.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
So, Dark Sweater... So long as they add a bit of text on their page about what "limited" means... they're fine?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Oh that is easy then. The monthly access fee for incarnate content is .... $15.00 a month. Well actually cheaper depending on how many months you pay in advance but you get the idea. You can pay to access the incarnate material. |
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
He probably meant a monthly license like how you can pay a small amount and get access to Inventions and the Architect.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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At level 50 you get a 3rd build. Simply have the devs give us that one at level 20 and put a 4th build into the game. And on my ONE dual built character, it was designed for SO/Leveling so losing my IOs would mean a couple minutes respecing.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
To be fair, some people (former subscribers included) already have a second build that is slotted and used.
I'm not all up-in-arms about any of this nor against the way they are handling it (I'm actually for it), but I can see that something could maybe be done to slide returning players in a little more smoothly. Again... if not... It isn't wrong to me. They'll either have to pay for IO access (either through subscription or the $2/month option) or slog through respec'ing and/or slotting up a new build. Having zero personal attachment to this argument... I can see the potential negative impression made with returning players under those conditions. My only answer to it, so far, is to offer a very short (no more than 10 days) period of working IOs before they get shut off. Let them jump in and have fun before they have to go and respec and such. Anyway... We can't really just say, "Let them use their second build" as plenty of players who IO'd their builds already used their second builds as well. |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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No I look at them exactly as potential customers. You don't give potential customers the full experience. You give them part of the experience so that they want to spend money for more of it. |
Originally Posted by Dark Sweater
I think you have a misunderstanding of the word "everything". The other I think you don't get is that you look at "free" players as freeloaders, instead of the customers or potential customers that they are.
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You are the one advocating for giving the free players more of the exprience for free. How does that make money for NCSoft?
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| Not at all. Look it up. Bait and switch is a manner of false advertising. It's the seller getting the customer to the store on false pretenses then trying to sell them a product. It's not exactly what's happening here but it's close enough. |
If I as a business advertise the amazing wonder gadget for $1.00 if you when come to my store you find that I only ever had 1 or 2 to sell and then try and sell the marvelous wonder gadget for $150.00 to you. That is bait and switch.
If I advertise that I'm selling the amazing wonder gadget for $1.00 and in the fine print it says only to VIP members of my store. And you get to the store and are not a VIP member and can only buy the amazing wonder gadget for $150.00. That is not bait and switch.
Bait and switch is where you never actually intended to sell the product advertised to get people to your store and offer a more expensive alternative.
Telling players that they can come back and play as a limited level Premium account and then not giving them access to all features of the game is not and has never been bait and switch.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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The moment they spend $15.00 and earn a token they unlock expanded chat.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Snip.
For most things I would agree - except the chat limitations: the Help channel is going to be very, very busy come I21 since that would be one of the few ways to communicate with others. |
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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You don't get a third build "at level 50". You get a third build "after completing Mender Ramiel's arc" - which is locked behind Incarnate System access (and thus VIP only). So a person will either a) have to unlock the third build before Freedom launches (which means subbing for a month), or b) sub for a month after Freedom launches, to unlock the third build.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
At level 50 you get a 3rd build. Simply have the devs give us that one at level 20 and put a 4th build into the game. And on my ONE dual built character, it was designed for SO/Leveling so losing my IOs would mean a couple minutes respecing.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Don't forget to delete all of your characters bases and any other resource you have. Otherwise your rage quit really doesn't mean anything since you can quietly slink back later and just play. I mean quiting just means you go to premium level.
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Originally Posted by Death_Badger
I've seen very little that would warrant me spending money on this game when there are several premium MMOs being released in the next year or so.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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They don't even have to spend $15. They can buy an old boxset (as cheap as $1.50 on some sites!) or they can spend $5 on PP. The first time purchasing PP grants a token, regardless of the amount purchased.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
The moment they spend $15.00 and earn a token they unlock expanded chat.
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If they DO spend $15 the first time purchasing PP, they will actually end up with THREE tokens (1 for having an account, 1 for purchasing PP the first time, 1 for purchasing $15 of PP). This means they only need to get two more tokens to fill out Reward Level 3, which unlocks all communication in the game and increases inf cap to a million and boosts storage. One of those tokens can be earned by buying an aforementioned boxset for stupid-cheap (it doesn't matter what version boxset, ANY retail code counts toward the boxset token). The fifth token can be obtained by subbing for a month (time cards can sometimes be gotten for cheap!) or spending $15 on the game.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Sounds like you wouldn't rather play the game as a premium player. Sounds like you want to play the game as a VIP player but just not pay the subscription.
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Originally Posted by Death_Badger
I'm not complaining, simply stating that the way in which Freedom works will actively discourage some people from playing. People on these forums seem so happy to attack anyone that states they would rather play the game as a premium player.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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This is just my personal take on things, but I find Freedom quite attractive. I'd be happy to play for free, as even the "basic" City of Heroes/Villains experience is quite good fun, and I liked the VIP model enough that I resubscribed after a number of years. I'd expect to see lots of new free players and a rise in the number of subscribers.
What I don't find at all attractive is the premium level model. Paying out money and still not having acess to lots of cool features and mostly importantly, the new endgame, just doesn't sell itself to me at all. I'd either subscribe or pay nothing under this system.
I also think they're missing a trick by not allowing players to earn points through regular play, as this seems to be a great incentive in other games to keep free players playing, and having lots of free players to play with makes being a subscriber more attractive. The easier it is to get teams the better it feels to play.
That's just my feelings on the new system.
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Yes you can buy interesting Store purchased versions of the uncommon invention sets that work just fine for any Premium player.|
Originally Posted by Machariel
Wait, do you mean the ability to purchase IO sets off the market / merit vendors per normal, or will people be able to generate them out of nowhere with the paragon store for $$$?
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These SBE's autolevel with the character and are account locked so you can't pass them to other accounts. And yes the KB enhancement and it's set is one of the ones you can buy.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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I think *EVERYONE* wants this. (Be honest! All of you would rather get [mostly] everything for nothing than for $$$.) But most people are wise enough to see that that would drive the game into the ground pretty quick. When all that's locked behind purchases is consumables and a couple premium sets/archetypes, close to nobody will buy anything.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sounds like you wouldn't rather play the game as a premium player. Sounds like you want to play the game as a VIP player but just not pay the subscription.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I've been reading this thread for a while and felt the need to chime in.
Disclaimer #1 - no company will ever make everyone happy. At any point someone's going to complain.
My frame of reference - I work for a company that provides electronic content. We have provided free trials and even free access to our resources at different times but the overwhelming majority of our electronic buisiness is via subscription and/or purchase of online content.
From a player/consumer standpoint - and also a business standpoint - Free Players/Customer do not equal Freeloaders. They are potential revenue. HOWEVER to expect that a Free Player/Customer can/will/should have free reign over the electronic content over a significant amount of time (more than a month) or have access to *everything* while never paying for content is both folly and a poor business model.
The idea is not to give IOs or Incarnate or *any* high end content away for free, it is to allow people to try the content risk-free. Should they *choose* to expand what they can have then they can do so to whatever level they feel comfortable.
I as an example am a returning player. I played for about 3 years straight (playing almost every day) then dropped of for a couple of years. Freedom intrigued me when a good friend told me about it & for me it was worth it to re-subscribe.
Again - there's no way to make everyone happy all of the time. I'm *not* saying STFU because everyone has the right to an opinion.
But sometimes you should be careful what you wish for.
A Free game with everything unlocked (or even most things unlocked) will give limited/no reason for someone to pay for any additonal content. This means that the company makes little to no revenue and is either forced to raise prices for the non-free content or close shop.
The digital landscape is littered with businesses who tried the free route and failed. I'm speaking about a much broader universe than just games - I'm talking business in general.
Thank You,
Silver Sablinova