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My guesses are based on how I expect any business to operate, Manoa's seem to be based on something else.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Thanks for harping on Manoa for guessing on what NCSoft's goals are, and then guessing on what NCSoft's goals are. Brilliant! It's the battle of guesswork and empirical data!
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If NCSoft have got this far it is likely that they have a functional marketing department that knows how to work out who buys what and why. It is unlikely that the whole i21 is a sudden decision that Positron made one morning on the way to work. The fact that Paragon Studios have been working on the software side of the new model for over a year probably means the actual decision for moving to a MTX lead payment system is quite a bit older than that.
Yet an awful lot of the posts in this thread (and the linked Blog) and many other threads imply that the whole idea is a waste of time and that it cannot work unless VIP players get everything for free (out of the box using points to buy shinies), and that returning players will only re-sub/buy points if they get the entire game for nothing.
Which I respectfully maintain is bollocks.
But yes I'm guessing just as much as everyone else.
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I will add to what I said before then. I loved the books (still do) though much preferred The Hobbit to the actual Lord of the Rings. (Still have a map companion for LotR which is even better... love maps). |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
So, this is the thread we discuss this stuff in now?
 Okay, after pouring through all of the posts, empirical data, opinions, feedback, theories, debates, other options... I have one important bit of personal feedback to offer: This made my insides cringe.  (I'm not really harping on you Lost Ninja, haha... I can understand how this happens, but I just find it so odd to think of the Lord Of The Rings saga as films first, haha... it makes my heart shed tears!)  |
However while LotRO is aimed at fans of the books and films what I read while I was thinking about having a go lead me to think that more credence is given to the films than the books. That is while it isn't based solely on the films more is film like than book like.
And for the same reason I won't dabble in the various attempts at Pern MMOs I won't dabble in Middle Earth MMOs. A good RPG set in either whether that be computer based or some other format I would love to play. Or even a game set there that doesn't use the settings/characters from the books I love, I'd try.
Also WoW has enough Legololz (et al) to last me a life time, I don't need to play the game where they're twenty a penny. :/
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No why would I ?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Are you prepared, then to withdraw your statements that:
and (emphasis mine) Because if not, I stand by my original statement. |
I am quite aware that in order to play all of the characters I currently have I will likely have to buy a load of character slots (as a premium player around 160 less slots than a subscriber), and then I'll want to buy the Time Manipulation set and the other new sets, and access to the first ward quests.
I simply want the option to also buy Incarnate and IO access. Yes that lot would likely cost me a lot of money but I'd prefer to actually buy it than pay out an amount each month then not have access when I didn't pay. (not knowing the cost of anything or what exactly is going to be available within the store is something of a negative factor currently, It's possible that the stuff I want will get me to the point where I get access to IO's anyway)
I have 2 accounts with all expansions and all costume packs, the problem isn't that I don't want to pay it's that I can't pay in the way I want. Therefore I consider it pointless me messing about resubbing or buying passes every time I fancy a bit of superhero action.
In regards to the segregation of the community I truly believe it is a bad thing to prevent people having any access to the endgame. Even if it's a limited access its better than totally being blocked. What happens if the premium part of the player base grows to surpass the income of the subscriptions? That's basically what happened in EQ2X and development became more focused on those than on the subscribers.
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If my vet rewards were all that "set me apart" from other players, heaven help me. There's no one around who can have more vet badges than I do unless it's via some bug, and I certainly don't feel devalued because someone else might be able to buy as many Paragon Rewards as it took me seven years to earn as Vet Rewards. Hell, if they do that I'm pretty happy, because I know their money is supporting a game I really enjoy playing.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
What I am getting at that in their pursuit of chasing the dollar they've devalued the idea of what it means to be a dedicated player. No longer is there anything to set anyone apart. Now you can just buy your way toward vet rewards rather then having to work for it.
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By the way, in case you aren't aware of it, there are still actual vet badges. It's not as granular, but there's still a way to look at a character and get a sense of how long that person's been subscribed. That's not a safe way to gauge much about a player, but it's still something that can "set apart" true vets as opposed to people who attached a siphon between NCSoft and their bank account.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Just because you've never seen her hot blond assassin dude doesn't mean she doesn't have one. You might be in his sights right now.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
No, no, no.
Arcanaville is the Archive. She's just missing the hot blond assassin dude. Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
Then again, I'm much more likely to end up in his sights with all my Arcanaville Digest reports, Arcanaville post stalking, and being a generally creepy D.O.M. (until you get to know me).
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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I strongly recommended that the Paragon Rewards system be described in nominal detail when Freedom was first announced. I recognize that part of the problem with that was that the rewards system wasn't finalized at that point, but I felt then and feel now that the player tiers and the reward system were intimately linked in terms of understanding how Freedom worked.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
It's a problem with dribbling information about this new tiered version of the game. Because they didn't explain what limited meant up front on the matrix page, it allowed various theories to be bandied about as what it does mean. Theories become preconceptions and when new information conflicts with them, some people believe that they've been mislead.
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Unfortunately, I don't make decisions around here, I only explain them.
Having said that, it would be reasonable to state that the original information was partially confusing by omission. It is not reasonable to state that the original information was incomplete, and so I made up a bunch of stuff to fill in the blanks and now I'm pissed the game doesn't match my fantasy.
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Quote:
Lets see:|
Originally Posted by Santorican
That's exactly what I mean. Rather than working for something the developers are giving impatient players a means to obtain something a lot of people have worked for. Instead of saying STFU and work for it they're enabling a generation of "instant gratification-ers."
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Old way, pay money earn rewards.
New way, pay money earn rewards.
Difference?
Oh and just a further point. How is doing nothing but paying your subs work?
Damn another point: How is other people paying money for something you don't have shafting you? Can the same not be said for people who have booster packs or costumes you don't have?
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Karen Wynn Fonstad I presume? Have you seen her Pern volume?|
Originally Posted by Lost Ninja
I will add to what I said before then. I loved the books (still do) though much preferred The Hobbit to the actual Lord of the Rings. (Still have a map companion for LotR which is even better... love maps).
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lost Ninja
However while LotRO is aimed at fans of the books and films what I read while I was thinking about having a go lead me to think that more credence is given to the films than the books. That is while it isn't based solely on the films more is film like than book like.
And for the same reason I won't dabble in the various attempts at Pern MMOs I won't dabble in Middle Earth MMOs. A good RPG set in either whether that be computer based or some other format I would love to play. Or even a game set there that doesn't use the settings/characters from the books I love, I'd try. Also WoW has enough Legololz (et al) to last me a life time, I don't need to play the game where they're twenty a penny. :/ |
And a lot of people there are very much fans of the books. Involved in the lore and the changes that are made to make it into a fun game. If you are fan, you should give it a try. Not like it costs you anything, since it is free, umm, a hybrid game.
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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But isn't that what you're already doing right now? Resubbing every time you feel the hankering to play CoX?|
Originally Posted by Death_Badger
I have 2 accounts with all expansions and all costume packs, the problem isn't that I don't want to pay it's that I can't pay in the way I want. Therefore I consider it pointless me messing about resubbing or buying passes every time I fancy a bit of superhero action.
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How are you losing out?
I'm really straining to find the logic in this, honestly.
Freedom? Yes thanks.
My own take or Feedback on the issue:
I have three accounts.
The first I have subbed fairly regularly since day 1 of the EU servers and prior to that during EU beta (join date on the forums matches roughly my join date to the game. After i21 is launched this account will remain subbed when I'm actively playing the game. It has some boosters (but not all) and about 45 months of play-time.
The second is my main alt account, created with the boxed copy of the game I ordered prior to the EU launch (my main account got created with an online purchase because the box wasn't going to arrive in time), this account is less often subscribed but has still managed 33 months. After i21 it will mostly be switched to premium, with odd bouts of VIP to accrue points to assist with unlocking some of the Permanent unlocks (Ninja Run, extra enhancement trays etc).
Account number 3, was created just for multi-boxing and has the least play time (9 months iirc) this account will also slip to premium (not actually subbed recently) and I'll most likely buy points for it periodically.
Overall the amount of money I spend to maintain my enjoyment levels in the game will go down. From around £18/month to around £11/month with greater access to characters I cannot afford to play with otherwise.
The only bad point I see is the fact that free players cannot create teams. If I ever get the hardware to run an 8 box setup I'd have to turn all 8 accounts into premiums, which would be a pain... Though in all honesty if I could afford 7 more boxes (and the power/connection/etc to go with it) I could afford more VIP accounts too.
tl:dr I like the idea of freedom, don't see any major downsides for premium players, don't see any issues for VIPs. Frees get shafted...
The F2P should be all about community building imo, because people who get involved with a community are more likely to pay to do more. So joining SG's should be allowed, but you shouldnt be able to lead or start one. F2pers should be able to start teams just like premium players. Tells and other chat options should not be heavily restricted, because it makes it difficult to team with F2Pers, and thats the exact opposite of what we want to happen. Im fine with restricting Io's, the auction house and all that though.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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I was going to say that once again this is not an F2P game, but I think that whether it is or not the limitations on the social interaction elements of the game for free players are based on the presumption of protecting the subscribers (and to a certain extent the premium players) from conduct that cannot be reasonably controlled with banning. Thus, I think its fair to say that while free players should be restricted in how they *initiate* contact, they should be less restricted in how they *respond* to contact. I think its fair to say that restrictions on initiation are restrictions on the free account, but restrictions on responses are actually unintentional backfiring restrictions on the non-free players.
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Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
The F2P should be all about community building imo, because people who get involved with a community are more likely to pay to do more. So joining SG's should be allowed, but you shouldnt be able to lead or start one. F2pers should be able to start teams just like premium players. Tells and other chat options should not be heavily restricted, because it makes it difficult to team with F2Pers, and thats the exact opposite of what we want to happen. Im fine with restricting Io's, the auction house and all that though.
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Quote:
The last existing vet badge is for 87 months. For a new player to get it under the old system, they would have to subscribe continuously until the end of 2018.|
Originally Posted by joshdex
Wait, what in the game do 99% of the people have NO chance of even SEEING? It must be something I've.. er.. never seen before. Which would make sense given the argument but I still wanna know what it is.
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The old vet system was a nice idea in its time, but it's now broken. Whatever the amount of effort going into maintaining it, it's being focused on an ever-shrinking pool of players -- the number of people continuously subscribed since the game's launch can never increase. Even without Freedom, it was in need of some kind of overhaul.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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A straight catgirl?
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Originally Posted by joshdex
Wait, what in the game do 99% of the people have NO chance of even SEEING?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Arcanaville being bad at math?|
Originally Posted by joshdex
Wait, what in the game do 99% of the people have NO chance of even SEEING? It must be something I've.. er.. never seen before. Which would make sense given the argument but I still wanna know what it is.
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GG not being argumentative?
Me not being a ****?
Or did you mean only in the game?
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I have a suspicion that this is less of a policy decision than it is a restriction imposed by the UI. If the action of the Backspace button is any indication, then back in the misty vastness of time, an enterprising UI designer made the perfectly reasonable observation that /reply $player and /tell $player are qualitatively the same operation and so /reply is essentially nothing more than a macro that invokes /tell. It just never mattered until now.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think its fair to say that restrictions on initiation are restrictions on the free account, but restrictions on responses are actually unintentional backfiring restrictions on the non-free players.
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If implementing a true /reply function with its own permissions didn't involve UI development, I suspect that the devs would have no qualms about having an unrestricted /reply command.
Maybe I just want to believe that, though. *laugh*
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Out of curiosity, do your quotes around the word buy dispute that one can buy a subscription, or does it merely indicate that buying a subscription is not the kind of purchase desired in this situation?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
[...] Telling people who WANT to buy permanent access to "buy" a subscription is not solving any problems (from their standpoint) [...]
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Quote:
Earned.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A straight catgirl?
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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It would be fair to say that I'm indicating my belief that the word "buy" does not apply to a subscription in the same sense as it does to "buying" permanent access to content because a subscription is a temporary license. You can certainly make the argument that a subscription is actually case of repeatedly purchasing a one-month content license and be technically correct.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
Out of curiosity, do your quotes around the word buy dispute that one can buy a subscription, or does it merely indicate that buying a subscription is not the kind of purchase desired in this situation?
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I put the quotes around "buy" because the context of the original comment was permanent ownership of content rights. The assertion that $15 was the purchase price of "unlocking" incarnates was a facetious one because the $15 charge was for a license to access VIP content as a whole. It was not a "unlock" or one-time purchase price of a license to access incarnates, which was what the original poster has indicated he was interested in.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Arcanaville being bad at math?
GG not being argumentative? Me not being a ****? Or did you mean only in the game? |
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Basically, from what I can gather, you're saying that you want to pay for access to everything the game has to offer, but you don't want to pay on a monthly basis. You want to pay once and only once for access to all the parts of the game you want to use. Something like pay $60 and get unlimited access to all (current) game features and then never have to pay any kind of reoccurring fee again? Am I reading that correctly? |
Originally Posted by Death_Badger
I don't want anything for free I simply want to choose how I pay for it. I prefer to drop a lump sum on a game and be able to simply play how and when I want. It has nothing to do with wanting to freeload. For the amount of time I play other games I pay well over the odds, but am happy with that as I don't have to manage a load of subscriptions and can happily drop into games with friends to do content. As the overview on the COH website says: Pay for the content and features that you want.
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If I am that's unfortunately not a payment model that NCSoft and Paragon Studios seem to be implementing. It generally looks like they're more expanding on the regular subscription model than anything else. And aside from incarnate access, you pretty much can pay for only what you want. It's just that in some cases you have to pay for the things you want monthly.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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Thank you for clearing that up. Going over pages of posts all at once, I must have missed the primary point of contention, which certainly slides everything into perspective.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
[...]
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I never made the argument that VIP players should get everything for free and never made the argument that returning players should get the entire game for nothing.|
Originally Posted by Lost Ninja
Yet an awful lot of the posts in this thread (and the linked Blog) and many other threads imply that the whole idea is a waste of time and that it cannot work unless VIP players get everything for free (out of the box using points to buy shinies), and that returning players will only re-sub/buy points if they get the entire game for nothing.
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I'm perfectly okay with the Play for Free level. I'm okay with the VIP level. I'm okay with the idea that Premium players will get more than Play for Free and less than VIP. And I'm okay with how the Paragon Rewards themselves are set up (i.e. the rewards you spend the tokens on).
My primary beef with the model is the Tier Perks aspect of the Paragon Rewards system. The sole intent of the blog was to point out that there may be reasons why this particular aspect of the model may not entice returning players into returning.
Even if Paragon Studios hypothetically decided to strip the Tier Perks away from the Paragon Rewards system and gave all perks to anyone and everyone who is a Premium player (no matter how long they've subbed or how much they've spent), Premium players would still have less than a VIP subscriber. And you know what? I'm perfectly okay with that.
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Not seeing how. Under the old system non-subscribers couldn't get any vet rewards, and newer subscribers were never going to catch up to long term vets.|
Originally Posted by Manoa
My primary beef with the model is the Tier Perks aspect of the Paragon Rewards system. The sole intent of the blog was to point out that there may be reasons why this particular aspect of the model may not entice returning players into returning.
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Under the new system long term vets will get everything they already unlocked. Returning subscribers will be able cherry pick the rewards they want first, and everyone can get reward points by spending money in the store, so everyone can catch up to the long term vets.
And anyone on a pure Free account who hasn't spent a dime on the game that want's to ***** about not getting rewards can ***** off.
One day people will learn to not argue with Arcanaville :P
No matter how right you think you might be if you're actually wrong she will break it down as to exactly why.
And if you're right? Well she'll be supporting your position and telling everyone else why you're right.
Until that day however I have an endless stream of forum entertainment!
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30