Speed Boosted Pets


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Posted

Six of our coalition and allies did a Moonfire WST last night. Our team composition was a bit unusual, not your atypical healer/tank/damage holy trinity. Kinetic defender, ice/kin troller, earth/kin troller, Dark/DP defender, Energy blaster, and a super buffed tanker.

In short we had a lot of transfusion, siphon power, fulcrum shift, speed boost and increase density. What really amazed me was the change in AI in the boosted pets even though their powers didn't recharge faster.

In my own personal experience, I know what slows do to foe NPC AI. They go to great lengths trying to escape tar patch, glue arrow, or caltrops. There is animation time in their powers and recharge time, but also, npc foes take time to get in position. Certain spawns like to run into your team's position, others are melee power users. If they are slow, even if they have a power recharged their time to setup an attack is often delayed as well.

Rocky was my pet, and he was quick to battle. Jack Frost was simply breathtaking, zipping to snipers and one shotting them with fulcrum shifted ice sword attacks. Dark Servant was literally a fuzzy blur. I realize the fact that damage was amped up that we went through spawns very fast, but the pets performance to me was unprecedented. The added speed of the pets between attacks was pronounced.

So have others found this kind of experience in trials or other support heavy teaming? In the past, certain ATs, stone tankers, are not shy about asking for kinetics on the team. Is this another paradigm where controllers, dark defenders, masterminds would be more assertive in teaming with kinetics?


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Psylenz View Post
The added speed of the pets between attacks was pronounced.
Not sure what you mean here. If you mean "the added speed as they ran from one guy they had attacked over to another guy," yeah, that's nice, but if you're under the impression "they attacked faster because of the recharge benefits of Speed Boost," you've misunderstood what you were seeing, as recharge buffs do not affect pets.


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Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
as recharge buffs do not affect pets.
Since when? I haven't really played with pets in a long time, but I remember speed boost definitely making my pets attack faster in the past.


 

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Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
Since when? I haven't really played with pets in a long time, but I remember speed boost definitely making my pets attack faster in the past.
They changed this quite a number of issues back. It was partly changed because +recharge would screw over some of the pets AIs!


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Posted

Took a while to find it but got this from ParagonWiki

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2009-04-08

  • Pet Powers Change:
    • Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericGlobal View Post
Took a while to find it but got this from ParagonWiki

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2009-04-08

  • Pet Powers Change:
    • Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
Wow I didn't know this either. So this must of really nerfed Fire/ Kin Controllers ?


 

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Originally Posted by Ultimus View Post
Wow I didn't know this either. So this must of really nerfed Fire/ Kin Controllers ?
There's a reason ss/fire brutes on AE fire farm maps are all the 'Rage' when it comes to farming these days.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimus View Post
Wow I didn't know this either. So this must of really nerfed Fire/ Kin Controllers ?
It was done to prevent certain pets (earth and ice? I think) from getting stuck in their AI script where they would only do certain attacks over and over again (typically the ones you'd rather them not do over and over.). So instead of firing off their range attack and then moving into range and using their hard hitting melee attacks, they'd just sit there plinking away at ranged.

The decrease in damage for a fire/kin troller from this is minimal.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
Not sure what you mean here. If you mean "the added speed as they ran from one guy they had attacked over to another guy," yeah, that's nice, but if you're under the impression "they attacked faster because of the recharge benefits of Speed Boost," you've misunderstood what you were seeing, as recharge buffs do not affect pets.
I am definitely well-informed that pets' recharge rates are unaffected by speed boost and by -recharge procs of kb sets in Assault Bots

This is exactly what I am saying "they ran from one guy they had attacked over to another guy". It's more than nice, it affects their AI, too, because they aren't 'locked' into an attack which requires re-positioning. The recharge isn't there, but the execution time of procedures in their attack cycle is improved. Jack Frost is a JUGGERNAUT when he has triple speed boost because he doesn't grind on a certain activation. Of course the fulcrum shifted ice sword circle attacks are just snazzy, too. It might sound lackluster but players should really see it to enjoy it.


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HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimus View Post
Wow I didn't know this either. So this must of really nerfed Fire/ Kin Controllers ?
Not at the high end... the purpled out ones tend to vaporize most spawns before the imps can even get going.


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Originally Posted by Phyrex View Post
It was done to prevent certain pets (earth and ice? I think) from getting stuck in their AI script where they would only do certain attacks over and over again (typically the ones you'd rather them not do over and over.). So instead of firing off their range attack and then moving into range and using their hard hitting melee attacks, they'd just sit there plinking away at ranged.

The decrease in damage for a fire/kin troller from this is minimal.
Actually it was Plant that was the big culprit. It's AI script is still poor even after the pet nerf.


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Posted

I love it when Kins speed boost my zombies. Since they like to melee and switch targets, they get to where they're going quickly. This also means that after grabbing agro, they quickly run out of range forcing the mobs to run around chasing them and the mobs wind up doing a poor job keeping up with them since they're so fast.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrex View Post
It was done to prevent certain pets (earth and ice? I think) from getting stuck in their AI script where they would only do certain attacks over and over again (typically the ones you'd rather them not do over and over.). So instead of firing off their range attack and then moving into range and using their hard hitting melee attacks, they'd just sit there plinking away at ranged.

The decrease in damage for a fire/kin troller from this is minimal.
The main problem was actualy Mastermind pets, as they (with upgrades) would get more abilities, many of the pets would get stuck at 1 power and never cast a different one.
Graveknights only spamming shadow power at range, lich stuck at fear, mercs only casting melee brawl or the commando stuck on buckshot and ninja's only trowing stars.


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Posted

To my knowledge, mastermind pets will still do that on occasion. Not being affected by recharge might've made it happen less often but there's still something wonky with pet AI in this game.


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Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum View Post
To my knowledge, mastermind pets will still do that on occasion. Not being affected by recharge might've made it happen less often but there's still something wonky with pet AI in this game.
Totaly agree, it only fixed parts of the AI of MM pets.

Sometimes i believe the custom mobs in AE seem to work better then the various MM pets.


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Posted

IIRC I think the set that was hit the hardest by the pet recharge change was storm. Lightning Storm in ultra-high recharge builds was a sight to see, especially since Hasten carries over to the pet.

Fire/kin was never really about the imps. It's fulcrum shifted hot feet + cages that does the majority of the damage, since containment effectively doubles your damage cap.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericGlobal View Post
Took a while to find it but got this from ParagonWiki

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2009-04-08

  • Pet Powers Change:
    • Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
As was pointed out at the time however that was a half truth at best; the nerf was also applied to pets and pseudo pets that have only one attack and had no AI problems. As I recall, either Castle or Positron was finally cornered into admitting that a major reason for the nerf was to weaken "overperforming" powers like Lightning Storm.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericGlobal View Post
Took a while to find it but got this from ParagonWiki
Good to know, thanks for the info!


 

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Originally Posted by MTS View Post
IIRC I think the set that was hit the hardest by the pet recharge change was storm.
Lightning Storm, Acid Mortar, Spectral Terror, Fire Imps -- their respective sets are strong enough that they can afford to be taken down a peg. Elec blast and gadgets, not so much. There's really no justification for applying this hack to Voltaic Sentinel or Gun Drone.

Also, it's easily demonstrated that recharge modification can badly mess up enemy critters' AI as well. So why shouldn't critters be made immune to recharge buffs and debuffs too? If it makes sense for pets, it makes sense for critters. But if it doesn't make sense for critters....


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS View Post
IIRC I think the set that was hit the hardest by the pet recharge change was storm. Lightning Storm in ultra-high recharge builds was a sight to see, especially since Hasten carries over to the pet.

Fire/kin was never really about the imps. It's fulcrum shifted hot feet + cages that does the majority of the damage, since containment effectively doubles your damage cap.
Why yes, it was very nice. With all that haste you could get two and maybe even overlap three of the auto-fire lightning cannons at once as well.


 

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What is weird about the whole +Recharge not affecting pets thing is that they are not immune to -Recharge. If Recharge really did affect their scripts, then it probably still does.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
What is weird about the whole +Recharge not affecting pets thing is that they are not immune to -Recharge. If Recharge really did affect their scripts, then it probably still does.
Maybe they should just be capped at +0 recharge. So + recharge could fix -recharge, but wouldn't muck up the AIs?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS View Post
Fire/kin was never really about the imps. It's fulcrum shifted hot feet + cages that does the majority of the damage, since containment effectively doubles your damage cap.
Yup, honestly on most ATs that have pets you can't control I don't bother with them. The pets cause more issues than fix. A fully IO'd out dom/controller doesn't need pets at all.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericGlobal View Post
Took a while to find it but got this from ParagonWiki

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2009-04-08

  • Pet Powers Change:
    • Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
Sad part is this didnt fix a damn thing it just made most of the melee pets alot worse. Maybe one day they will have sense enough to revisit this and undo this crap that butchered pets and so many possible power combinations.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS View Post
IIRC I think the set that was hit the hardest by the pet recharge change was storm. Lightning Storm in ultra-high recharge builds was a sight to see, especially since Hasten carries over to the pet.

Fire/kin was never really about the imps. It's fulcrum shifted hot feet + cages that does the majority of the damage, since containment effectively doubles your damage cap.
I totally agree with the comment on LS. I pretty much shelved my stormy due to this. If they had allowed the cloud to at least follow you to make up for the nerf I could have dealt with it better.


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