Is It Too Soon For Another Trek TV Series?
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Posted on: 2011-08-25 13:16 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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You mean if I removed the temporal cold war then the show would be different? Oh my god I take it all back: if I have to change the level of stupid in the show to remove most of the stupid in the show then forget it.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
If you look at what it was sold as, yes. If you look at what it actually was, no.
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In that case I wish they never did Enterprise to begin with, and did another show that just happened to be called Enterprise that had all of the elements of the show Enterprise except the temporal cold war stupid stuff.
Actually, I take that back as well. What I meant to say was:
Oh, I just gotta respond to this one though:
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| Granted, I'll give you that is not what the show was sold on or what viewers expected, but that is still what it is and it was done well. |
Now, if you actually want to debate either time travel from a physics standpoint or time travel as depicted in Star Trek, I'm more than happy to do so. However, that particular discussion is leaving the bounds of colloquiality.
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Perhaps the question to ask isn't "Is it too soon for another Trek series" but "Is it too LATE for another Trek series?"
Franchise fatigue, fan burnout, Berman and Braga's crummy legacy with Trek.....perhaps Trek is done?
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I kinda like this idea. It would eliminate "filler" episodes and reduce the story to vital material. I would prefer at least a series of 10-13 episodes like the Brits seem to enjoy, but I'll take what I can get. Its interesting you mentioned Hornblower. I just finished most of the books and find it remarkable how many of the tales within the books did not require the slash of a saber and the thunder of guns. Many times the battle was one of wits. I know Kirk was loosely based on Hornblower, I wonder if it could be done again.
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Originally Posted by WildClaw
Personally, I think taking Trek into a different direction would be a good thing. Note that I said a 'different' direction, not necessarily a 'new' direction.
 What I would propose would be to do a series of mini-series, using the Horatio Hornblower model. A mini-series based on the Academy, followed later by a mini-series with a number of the same characters (not all of them!) as midshipmen/ensigns, followed with a mini-series as full officers, etc. Each mini-series as a stand-alone arc, and picking and choosing which characters to follow each progression onwards. Cast can change, time can progress, and there can even be long-term overall story-arc development between mini-series if the writers feel up to it. |
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Maybe. Clearly the Abrams Trek proves there's a demand for stories in the Trek universe, but its also possible that as a space adventure it works best on the big screen. I can't imagine a James Bond tv series working, so its possible people will pay big money once every two years that might not tune in once a week. I honestly don't have a good answer to that one.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Perhaps the question to ask isn't "Is it too soon for another Trek series" but "Is it too LATE for another Trek series?"
Franchise fatigue, fan burnout, Berman and Braga's crummy legacy with Trek.....perhaps Trek is done? |
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There's even a role for Colm Meaney.
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TV show, set in the same time period and on the same vessel as Star Trek: The Next Generation, but during the graveyard shift when all the A-list crew members are sleeping or, in Rikers case, ******* someone or something. Night Shifts crew are anxious, bitter depressives, aware that while theyre on the best ship in the fleet none of them are the best; theyre the understudies, the also-rans, the benchwarmers stuck on a bad rotation and just hoping to scrape by on their commission until something anything gives them a chance at the prime time, or at least an excuse to bail. |
They can do a new one just so long as it respects the original timeline and it totally ignores what that movie that butchered the series and created way too many plot holes and paradoxes that the fabric of the universe will cave in if another series or movie is made following that time line.
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Voyager was only epic phail due to them having the worst captain ever. She always constantly put the lives of her in danger just to take a pit stop to explore when they should have kept going towards home. So many lives were needlessly lost due to her stupidity. Even 7 of 9 commented on this.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
To me, Voyager was what damaged the franchise, then Enterprise was a band-aid over a gaping wound.
Also TOS was about 40+ years old when Enterprise was made, and now Paramount decides to make a prequel series to TOS???? From an FX standpoint alone that was a bad idea.... |
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Which goes counter to what they set off to do at the beginning of the series, when she said basically "We're explorers. We'll make our way home while setting out to do what we were planning to do all along."|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Voyager was only epic phail due to them having the worst captain ever. She always constantly put the lives of her in danger just to take a pit stop to explore when they should have kept going towards home. So many lives were needlessly lost due to her stupidity. Even 7 of 9 commented on this.
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That was voyager's mission from the start. To explore the Delta Quadrant. Only before they had a quick way home with the wormhole.
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Minor correction: wasn't the DS9 wormhole connected to the Gamma Quadrant and that was to be Voyager's mish?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Which goes counter to what they set off to do at the beginning of the series, when she said basically "We're explorers. We'll make our way home while setting out to do what we were planning to do all along."
That was voyager's mission from the start. To explore the Delta Quadrant. Only before they had a quick way home with the wormhole. |
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I lost track of how many times Janeway gave up and activated auto destruct only to have someone come up with a last minute solution and then she has to abort the countdown.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Voyager was only epic phail due to them having the worst captain ever. She always constantly put the lives of her in danger just to take a pit stop to explore when they should have kept going towards home. So many lives were needlessly lost due to her stupidity. Even 7 of 9 commented on this.
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Not exactly. |
Originally Posted by Nericus
Minor correction: wasn't the DS9 wormhole connected to the Gamma Quadrant and that was to be Voyager's mish?
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Voyager was sent out to capture a Maquis ship that was hiding in the badlands. Tuvok was undercover on board the Maquis ship.
The Caretaker then pulled the Maquis into the Delta Quad.
When Voyager came looking for them a few days later, the Caretaker pulled them in as well.
Instead of using the Array to get back home, she decided to destroy it to prevent the Kazon from using it to hurt the Ocampa.
The wormhole from TNG that the Ferengi end up trapped in is later found by Voyager. The 2 Ferengi have set themselves up as demi-gods to a primitive culture.
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How do you figure it was a bad story because they weren't allowed to finish it? It wasn't that they just sad "we aren't going to finish it" but the show was canceled before the story could be completed.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
That is the definition of a bad story. You finish what you start. You don't create a setup and then switch your focus to something entirely different. And yeah, I don't know what Enterprise's writers were trying to build to with the TCW, but it's also clear from the hamfisted resolution that they didn't know either. It was a half-***** concept from the beginning, with a half-***** middle and a half-***** end.
Yes, you can get away from it. Only 13 out of 97 episodes were actually about the Temporal Cold War. It was clear that the writers forgot about the whole thing pretty easily, because it was never a consistent thread throughout the series. |
The TCW was not 13 episodes. I have no idea how you are getting that count. Any episode that dealt with the Suliban, Xindi, or Daniels has to do with the TCW... considering AN ENTIRE SEASON is about the Xindi that's 23+ episodes right there
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not even the writers thought it was done especially well. Its extremely well known that the whole "Temporal Cold War" backstory was the result of executive meddling, and there was no actual plan for it beyond tossing it in from time to time. The studio wanted a "futuristic" element to the show which was otherwise set in Trek's past, so Brannon Braga dug up the temporal cold war idea which was he was actually playing around with for a completely different show concept. Then the studio decided the theme was an actual drag on the show and ordered them to wrap it up immediately, which is why it disappears suddenly.
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And it didn't just "suddenly disappear" it wrapped up over 2 episodes in the final season and I'd be willing to bet had the show not been canceled you would have seen in in place of the final episode and continue on in the next season restarted with a "i thought we fixed that" I think it's fair to say that the people in charge realized that going back to Nazi Germany and staying there was a bad idea and told them to wrap that part of it up because they want to be more about the Enterprise and it's crew and not Nazi Germany. What they did after that point is pretty much what I would have done since the next season was supposed to be moving into the whole Romulan War so they had to establish better relations with the other races in the federation.
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Which, incidentally, was technically a violation of the Prime Directive. At least, as Janeway herself interpreted the Prime Directive, based on the fact she later quotes it as applying to the Kazon not that long afterward.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Instead of using the Array to get back home, she decided to destroy it to prevent the Kazon from using it to hurt the Ocampa.
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I was really rooting for Janeway as the first featured female captain in starfleet. But it became clear in the first season that were I a member of the crew of Voyager I would have smothered her in her sleep. The most offensive thing Janeway was ever scripted to have done was what she told Harry at the end of the episode "Flashback" where Tuvok's memories of serving on board the Excelsior were explored:
"It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit: I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that."
Considering that Janeway throughout Voyager basically made up the rules as she went along, and not just in terms of viewer perspective but the character herself *admits* that she's the captain and she'll damn well do whatever she wants, this was perhaps disproportionately offensive to me. It was almost as if the writers speaking through Janeway were saying that we the viewers were supposed to recognize just how much more enlightened and wise Janeway and the current characters were. That might not have been intentional on the part of the writers, but it is the impression I got.
And you can only get away with that sort of thing if the character of Janeway was in fact enlightened and wise. Picard was enlightened and wise, compared to Kirk's gunslinger personality, but both were portrayed as highly competent captains. Janeway wasn't. She was actually portrayed as the worst example of a martinet with an elitist complex in charge of military vessel. And she's the only Trek captain I would classify as a Mary Sue, insofar as everyone seemed to love and respect her for apparently no actual demonstrated reason.
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They did come up with it but it was forced upon them to come up with it in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Why wouldn't the writers say it was bad if they didn't come up with it?
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| It's an easy out for them and it's diffuses the hate they get. Further this is the reason a lot of people give for why Enterprise is not liked and why those creators sucked, but now you are saying "they don't. They just had other people in charge that sucked!" You can't have it both ways. |
That is the one way I want it.
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| And it didn't just "suddenly disappear" it wrapped up over 2 episodes in the final season and I'd be willing to bet had the show not been canceled you would have seen in in place of the final episode and continue on in the next season restarted with a "i thought we fixed that" I think it's fair to say that the people in charge realized that going back to Nazi Germany and staying there was a bad idea and told them to wrap that part of it up because they want to be more about the Enterprise and it's crew and not Nazi Germany. What they did after that point is pretty much what I would have done since the next season was supposed to be moving into the whole Romulan War so they had to establish better relations with the other races in the federation. |
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Sorry, but I don't believe it was "forced" upon them. If it was then they would have done less with it...ie no suliban, no daniels, no Xindi...They wouldn't have an entire season based on it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
They did come up with it but it was forced upon them to come up with it in the first place.
What two ways am *I* trying to have it? I'm trying to have it one way, the way most fans of the show wanted to have it, the way the writers and cast members say it was. The temporal cold war was a dumb idea that was first forced upon them, it was something they did grudgingly, and they dispensed with it immediately upon being told to get rid of it because no one except apparently one guy out there liked it. That is the one way I want it. You would lose that bet. But before I prove that you would lose that bet, please make a bet. |
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Upon multiple rewatchings I start to see beneath it though. My initial impression of Janeway was that she was a lose cannon way to quick to judge and hit the destruct command. The more I watched her growth though, the more I realized this was her 1st trip out as Captain. Mere days in she's stranded on her own. Of course she's going to end up being more cavalier in her approach since she can both get away with it and has nobody with seniority to look to for guidance. She has to make tough choices that break the rules in order to survive, as a result her character becomes more nonchalant with the Prime D as the seasons go on.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Which, incidentally, was technically a violation of the Prime Directive. At least, as Janeway herself interpreted the Prime Directive, based on the fact she later quotes it as applying to the Kazon not that long afterward.
I was really rooting for Janeway as the first featured female captain in starfleet. But it became clear in the first season that were I a member of the crew of Voyager I would have smothered her in her sleep. The most offensive thing Janeway was ever scripted to have done was what she told Harry at the end of the episode "Flashback" where Tuvok's memories of serving on board the Excelsior were explored: "It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit: I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that." Considering that Janeway throughout Voyager basically made up the rules as she went along, and not just in terms of viewer perspective but the character herself *admits* that she's the captain and she'll damn well do whatever she wants, |
I realized, for me, Janeway is a Captain I both admire and hate. Unlike Picard who seemed untouchable, Janeway has many, many flaws yet always has the best interest of her crew in mind. Though I don't approve of her methods, the results are rewarding.
The one thing that stands out in my mind as being the most grievous thing she did was decide to kill Tuvix. While losing Tuvok and Neelix would have been a significant blow to the crew and morale, I just can't fathom making that choice. Even more so after Tuvix's performance begging for his life...
Janeway was a Captain I could despise while still following into battle.
Picard was a Captain I could admire while trusting to avoid battle.
I kept asking myself in certain Voyager scenarios, WWPD? What would Picard do in this situation. Usually his method would have ended up leaving Voyager stranded forever.
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Then you have no idea how the world works for most creatives. The person footing the bill can have a lot of say.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Sorry, but I don't believe it was "forced" upon them. If it was then they would have done less with it...ie no suliban, no daniels, no Xindi...They wouldn't have an entire season based on it.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I havent brought it up before because apparently there are a few here who do not like it, but Peter Davids New Frontier books would actually make a great setting for a new series. It has everything you people seem to want in a new series: set after the Dominion War, exploration of new areas of space, what it means to be human, new aliens, conflict between different factions and the Federation, and even the nonhuman captain.
Captain Mknzy Calhoun isnt human. He looks very much like a human, but his history and motivations, while very much understandable are not the same.
The crew, while having a lot of humans has a lot of nonhumans highlighted in the books.
One species is hermaphroditic and the officer becomes both father of one child and mother of another as the series progresses.
We have two Vulcans. But we have variety in that one is actually a Vulcan/Romulan hybrid (and emotional control issues) and the other lost her mate on their wedding/PonFar night (and all the attendant mental scarring that entails).
We have a Thing-like rock alien who (of course) is the security chief.
Another alien crew member is described as rather like a cross between a sasquatch and a bat.
And there are numerous others that I cant recall right now.
We even get some stories focused on the night crew.
The series is set in a new-to-us sector of space. This gives us new aliens to meet and new factions to come into conflict with. And new planets to see.
The biggest problem with bringing the series to screen would be the inclusion of several characters first seen in TNG: Robin Lefler (played by Ashley Judd in TNG) and Elizabeth Shelby (played by Elizabeth Denehy in TNG). Both roles are now 20 years in the past. However, both characters could be ejected or replaced by others and a series would still be fun to watch.
However, with the following the novel series has, we probably wont see it turned in to film as we would have the same book to film problems we seem to have with so many other books that are turned into movies. See Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings for examples of they didnt do it that way in the books, the books are better, and why did they leave out this part?
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Originally Posted by Nericus
I lost track of how many times Janeway gave up and activated auto destruct only to have someone come up with a last minute solution and then she has to abort the countdown.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Considering that Janeway throughout Voyager basically made up the rules as she went along, and not just in terms of viewer perspective but the character herself *admits* that she's the captain and she'll damn well do whatever she wants, this was perhaps disproportionately offensive to me. It was almost as if the writers speaking through Janeway were saying that we the viewers were supposed to recognize just how much more enlightened and wise Janeway and the current characters were. That might not have been intentional on the part of the writers, but it is the impression I got.
And you can only get away with that sort of thing if the character of Janeway was in fact enlightened and wise. Picard was enlightened and wise, compared to Kirk's gunslinger personality, but both were portrayed as highly competent captains. Janeway wasn't. She was actually portrayed as the worst example of a martinet with an elitist complex in charge of military vessel. And she's the only Trek captain I would classify as a Mary Sue, insofar as everyone seemed to love and respect her for apparently no actual demonstrated reason. |
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Upon multiple rewatchings I start to see beneath it though. My initial impression of Janeway was that she was a lose cannon way to quick to judge and hit the destruct command. The more I watched her growth though, the more I realized this was her 1st trip out as Captain. Mere days in she's stranded on her own. Of course she's going to end up being more cavalier in her approach since she can both get away with it and has nobody with seniority to look to for guidance. She has to make tough choices that break the rules in order to survive, as a result her character becomes more nonchalant with the Prime D as the seasons go on.
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Accepting that she had her own problems interpreting the Prime Directive I still think the greater fault with her fundamental characterization was setting her up as a "scientist captain" as opposed to the captain types portrayed in the other shows. Now I have nothing against science itself and it obviously has always played a huge part of Star Trek. But what I'm getting at is that establishing her as approaching everything from a narrow science point of view led the writers of the show to get comfortable (lazy?) with the idea that pretty much everything could be solved by the Deus ex machina technobabble gizmo of the week. Now again I understand a certain level of technobabble has always been part of Star Trek. But somehow I eventually got the vibe that Voyager painted itself into a corner by focusing far too much on the "futuristic technology" aspects of the show instead of the "clever poker diplomacy" used in other Treks. The technology of the setting became the story instead of being an element that served the story. I feel this seriously constricted the series to a set of plotlines which from a literary point of view quickly became stale and monotonous.
To put this idea into a "viewer appreciation" perspective I've seen just about every episode of every Star Trek series -except- Voyager. I estimate I've only seen maybe half of the total number of Voyager episodes and to this day, even as a devoted Star Trek fan, I have no overwhelming desire to see the rest of them. To those keeping score this means I technically liked Enterprise more than Voyager! Again I attribute this mostly to the overall sense of "sameness" of the plotlines and their over-reliance on using science/technology tricks to solve every problem imaginable.
I just hope that whatever direction the next series takes it stays flexible enough to allow for a wide range of story types. I think the metaphorical lesson learned from Voyager is that if you think too much like a hammer you're going to see every problem as if it were a nail.
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What are you talking about? The Temporal Cold War was very clearly given a resolution by the boring first episode of the final season. The rest of that season had absolutely nothing to do with the TCW, and fans generally consider that season to be when Enterprise finally started getting good.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
How do you figure it was a bad story because they weren't allowed to finish it? It wasn't that they just sad "we aren't going to finish it" but the show was canceled before the story could be completed.
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| The TCW was not 13 episodes. I have no idea how you are getting that count. Any episode that dealt with the Suliban, Xindi, or Daniels has to do with the TCW... considering AN ENTIRE SEASON is about the Xindi that's 23+ episodes right there |
Note that there are often gaps of ten episodes in which the war isn't mentioned in any way shape or form. When you're trying to do an overarching story like that, you don't go that long between plot relevant episodes. Yeah, you can do one or two filler episodes in between, but ten? Ten is a sign that the writers aren't trying very hard to keep the story going. And the Xindi arc was about the Xindi. It was only loosely connected to the Cold War
Oh, and you'll also note the parts where there are quotes from the show's creative staff saying that the Temporal Cold War was more or less forced on them by the network, which then forced the writers to resolve the War because it was not working due to how poorly developed it was.
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Thanks for showing a lack of reading comprehension.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Oh, and you'll also note the parts where there are quotes from the show's creative staff saying that the Temporal Cold War was more or less forced on them by the network, which then forced the writers to resolve the War because it was not working due to how poorly developed it was.
Thanks for playing, buh-bye. |
What is said is that the "powers that be" wanted a more "futuristic" idea in Enterprise. That idea could have easily been a different show. And that the Braga "felt" forced to wrap it up quickly and do so in season 4 where they didn't want it to be.
Braga actually says that he wanted to do it over a longer perid of time and that the show was RELIANT on the whole time traveling thing.
So there was no "forcing" there was only suggestion and "feeling" along with the fact that Enterprise was Canceled which made them wrap it up quickly and before they wanted to...
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My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks. Nowhere on that page does it say that Braga wanted to keep going over a longer period of time. Braga says that the War was mandated by the studio, which wanted something more "futuristic" in the series, and that it probably would've worked better in a different series. Then you have Berman saying that the War gave him more or less a free hand to do whatever he wanted and then reset things like they never happened. Then Manny Coto saying he wanted the fourth season to be free of the time travel stuff. And finally John Billingsly saying, "I tended to concur on the broader point that the temporal time war never really got off the ground, the storytelling was too attenuated, and that it needed to die."|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Thanks for showing a lack of reading comprehension.
What is said is that the "powers that be" wanted a more "futuristic" idea in Enterprise. That idea could have easily been a different show. And that the Braga "felt" forced to wrap it up quickly and do so in season 4 where they didn't want it to be. Braga actually says that he wanted to do it over a longer perid of time and that the show was RELIANT on the whole time traveling thing. So there was no "forcing" there was only suggestion and "feeling" along with the fact that Enterprise was Canceled which made them wrap it up quickly and before they wanted to... |
The Temporal Cold War was neverthe driving story behind Enterprise. It was a badly executed concept forced on the show by the networks that the writers either forgot or chose to ignore for most of the show's run.
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There was no season based on it. They interwove the idea into the series, but there are very few episodes that mention it specifically. All the things you are counting as part of the temporal cold war are thing that are only a part of it incidentally. The entire Xindi War, for example, cannot be counted as a set of nothing but temporal cold war episodes because nearly all of them would work without the temporal cold war: the only small change necessary to separate the Xindi war from the TCW is an alternate causal explanation for the Sphere builders motivations.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Sorry, but I don't believe it was "forced" upon them. If it was then they would have done less with it...ie no suliban, no daniels, no Xindi...They wouldn't have an entire season based on it.
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In fact, all it would take would be to include one novel into canon and *all* time travel in Star Trek would be part of the temporal cold war. That's how easy it is to interweave an overarching backstory into events that otherwise do not specifically need it. But removing the temporal cold war doesn't remove Star Trek First Contact from Trek history, even though according to that novel without the TCW the Borg would not have had the technology to go back into the past in the first place.
In any event, what you believe is contradicted by what the first party players have specifically stated over the years.
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'According to Brannon Braga, the Temporal Cold War arc was created at the request of the studio, which wanted something more "futuristic"'|
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks. Nowhere on that page does it say that Braga wanted to keep going over a longer period of time. Braga says that the War was mandated by the studio, which wanted something more "futuristic" in the series, and that it probably would've worked better in a different series.
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Wanted, not mandated.
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| Then you have Berman saying that the War gave him more or less a free hand to do whatever he wanted and then reset things like they never happened. |
Like what I said they did. They are showing things that might have happened like this but because of the way they did it you can, but don't have to accept it as cannon. It's a pretty clever trick.
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| Then Manny Coto saying he wanted the fourth season to be free of the time travel stuff. |
"I felt that everything that had been said about the Temporal Cold War had already been said. I felt a heavy reliance on time travel at the beginning of Enterprise"
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| And finally John Billingsly saying, "I tended to concur on the broader point that the temporal time war never really got off the ground, the storytelling was too attenuated, and that it needed to die." |
In other words. He felt there was a dictate, but not expressed AND thought that the way he ABRUPTLY ENDED it was was wrong...what's the opposite of abrupt?
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| The Temporal Cold War was neverthe driving story behind Enterprise. It was a badly executed concept forced on the show by the networks that the writers either forgot or chose to ignore for most of the show's run. |
"I felt a heavy reliance on time travel at the beginning of Enterprise"
Do you know what Reliance means?
It would be nice if you would stop quote mining.
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch