Where do the archetypes rank (in fun) for you?

The tanker AT only has 1 more tool to control aggro by default.

The other tool, Taunt, you skipped it on your Brute and denied yourself a valuable tool for teaming (and debuffing some pesky ranged enemies).



Greater survival is often irrelevant if you already have a Tanker or Brute there.

Greater survival is also put at risk more often simply by having those taunt auras without the Tanker's level of mitigation.

Higher resistance caps are a benefit, but outside of secondaries that specialize (Invuln, Ela, FA), Brutes don't usually fare much better than Scrappers even with buffs from team mates (Exotics for WP, SD, All of SR's Resistances, EA, etc).



On SOs? Maybe.

For IO builds, there are several scrapper primaries and builds that brutes can not even come close to if they were capable of the old 90% Fury.

DB, KM, DM, anything with a shield for example. X/SD Builds for example see Scrappers easily ahead of Brutes by 15-30% DPS, with no equivalent gain in survivability for the Brute (12% extra HP).

Even Claws running the absolute top chain works out for the Scrapper.


This is your bias against the Brute AT really.

Which is pretty bizarre considering you are a take all comers, any build ok type of player.

You basically feel that Brutes are worthless for holding aggro, when the truth is that a dedicated Brute focused on eating aggro will outstrip the Tanker's ability to generate threat every single time.

It's also a silly position to hold since Brutes have been holding aggro in various degrees, including the old "top end" content like the LRSF.


That's a let down for me as a group leader, because when I'm looking for aggro control I look for Brutes or Tankers without discriminating.


So then by your definition Brutes have no purpose, since Tankers have better mitigation and gauntlet, and Scrappers deal better damage in many circumstances.

Except that's not the case, unless you've got some mad hax going on that I'm not aware of. What you're describing is a mindset, an attitude. Not a mechanical functionality.

When you've got that ranged attack chain you do not have the ability to taunt. When you've got the ability to taunt you don't have the ability to summon those pets and so on.

You cannot be in all forms at all times, you cannot have the full benefit of all forms at all times. What you have is the ability to access all of those things. Granted, some of the aspects do carry across forms (summoned pets, Eclipse) but when you shift into a form, you accept both its strengths and its limitations.

The "all forms at all times" is a great mentality and an excellent way to teach people flexibility in formshifting but it is not a mechanical reality. That may change, but I doubt it. Alternatives exclude.

Mentality is not the same thing as mechanical functionality. It's the same for all ATs. I say I play my Corruptors as team support and damage dealers. Absolutely true, but the same exclusion applies when you really get down to it. When I'm throwing a Fireball, I'm (arguably) not supporting my team at that moment. When I'm throwing out shields or dropping Fulcrum Shift, I'm not dealing damage at that moment. That doesn't mean I can't do both to great effect by using all of my powers flexibly.

Edit: Sortof. Dechs has clarified to say that it's his opinion that Brutes have no purpose for him/the way he plays them rather than a blanket statement. Unfortunate, but we can agree to disagree.

So i guess that would mean that WSs serve no perpose either. Since trollers control better, defs debuff better, blasters/scrappers kill stuff better, tanks...tank better.
At least to me. :P

Well, if you tell me you're looking for aggro control, I'm just not going to bring my brute. It's as simple as that.


I'm not going to address everything in your post point by point, but I'll try to cover the gist of it. Again, there's a lot of confusion here and it's all because of my miscommunication. It all started when I poorly worded why I enjoy playing my Tank over playing my Brute.

I don't think the Brute AT don't have a purpose. I know my brute, the way I built him, is not as valuable to a team as my Tank, my Warshade, or my Bots/Traps. All of them are awesome characters capable of awesome things, but when it comes to a team, the others are better than my Brute. That makes the Brute less fun for me when I'm on a team.

I do intend to make a more team friendly version of the Brute as an alternate build. At that point my view of teaming with him will most likely change. I haven't gotten around to it, though, and I have other priorities right now.

I do believe you misinterpreted me here:

The scrapper is better in one area, the tank in another. That doesn't invalidate the Brute. What I said was that my Bots/Traps is better in both areas at the same time. In my mind, that does invalidate his purpose.

Except that I do, because you seem to be disregarding durations. Taunt, control, and pets all have a duration on it.

I stun a group, then taunt the ones I missed, then start firing AoEs. All the while I have my capped resistance, buffed damage, and pets.

I think this is a wonderful point. And i build a lot of my toons to be like this, my SS/fire being the most successful, the way i see it if i can solo something then i bring that to any team i join. No matter how crappy it is. My brute can solo the ITF quite easily, so if i join with a team of newbs who have completely gimped builds and have never done the TF we will still be able to complete the task with relative ease.
I fail to see how something like that isnt valuable to a team.

Im gonna leave now so this thread gets back on track.

I did not disregard durations. I explicitly stated in my post that some of the aspects carry over due to their durations.

I'm not sure how I can explain this better. When you shift to Dwarf, you lose access to your Nova powers. That's a fact. You can regain access to them, but you lose access to your Dwarf powers. Various powers can stay in effect but it is mechanically impossible for you to be all forms at once. What you have is access to all of the forms at any given time, with shifting animation time. We're talking about different things. You're talking about your playstyle mentality when playing your WS, I'm talking about what is mechanically possible.

What I'm getting at this is that this is not a weakness or a failure. It is a strength of the AT, that you can shift as necessary to fill any given role at any time. But you cannot fill all of them at the same time. Which means by your previously stated reasoning, whenever you shift into Nova to blow stuff up you'd be better off on a Blaster. As soon as you shift to Dwarf to control aggro, you'd be better on a Tanker. When you shift into Human to buff up and control mobs, you'd be more effective on a Controller. However, in any of those forms you can potentially be 'good enough' or even better than the 'pure' AT.

The strength of a WS is in their versatility, their ability to do all of those things. Similarly, it is the strength of a Brute (for example) to both deal damage and control aggro.

Edit: but anyway, as UberGuy pointed out, this is an old argument. As well as a fairly major thread derail. Let's agree to disagree.

Dont forget brutes SMASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They also debuff things all dead and dead like real good. :P

I contend that it is not. You can throw a fireball then press fulcrum shift. I can throw Nova Emanation and then taunt, but the animation takes 2 seconds longer. All my warshade's powers are always available to me. Human powers are always instantly available. I don't see how I can explain that any better.

I can throw Fireball and then hit FS and you can hit Nova Emanation and then Taunt, but neither of us can do both at the exact same time. That's what I've been saying. You are not Dwarf, Human and Nova all at the same time. That's a mentality, not an ingame mechanical reality.

Your Warshade is not a Tanker, a Controller and a Blaster all the time. It is a character which can fill any of those roles or a combination thereof at any given time. It's not the same thing.

Edit: the relevance of this point is this: from the second you enter Dwarf form, you're entering a role at which a Tanker would perform better. Ditto for Nova and Blasters. But this does not mean a WS has no purpose, just because its individual forms/roles are individually beaten by the respective 'pure' ATs.

Similarly, a Brute does not have no purpose in a team because a Scrapper may do more damage or a Tanker may control aggro better.

Yet you would still call your corruptor a support and damage dealer. Why can I not say my Warshade is a Blastanktroller?

because its not? :P

I should point out that the reason that MMs are bottom of the totem pole for me is not because I think the AT is functionally flawed. There's just something I prefer about my characters doing the defeating themselves, and not relying heavily on secondary AIs to do it for them. That's definitely just me. I do get the idea there are a lot of people like me, but I know plenty of people who love pet-centric characters.

Given the number of times you have been demonstrably and factually wrong with respect to Warshades and what their powers do and do not do, I think this might be a good time for you to quit while you are behind.

On the other hand, in this almost entirely subjective thread about player preferences, you have managed to be objectively wrong, and for that I salute you.

Exactly! I would still call my Corruptor a support character and a damage dealer, yes. Similarly, you can call your Warshade whatever portmanteau you feel is most applicable.

You said that you felt a Brute had no purpose on a team because while it could deal damage and control aggro, other ATs could do either or both tasks better. If the team needed aggro control, you'd be better bringing your Tanker. If the team needed damage, you could bring something else. When they needed a bit of both, you could bring your MM. If I understood you correctly, your point was that anything the Brute contributed to a team, another AT could do better.

I disagree with that line of thinking, because hybrid ATs are in many situations more effective than their more 'pure' counterparts due to their flexibility. To demonstrate this, I used your WS. When you're in Dwarf form to control aggro, you'd be better off on your Tanker. When you're in Nova form to blow stuff up, you'd be better on your MM or a Blaster. When you're in Human form to control/blast/etc, you'd be better off on a Controller/whatever.

But that is not the case. Aside from the logistical absurdity of relogging and switching characters every time the situation changes, it doesn't work that way because often times, the WS (or whichever other hybridized AT) can be good enough. When a WS is good enough to control the aggro, you're better off with a WS (or Scrapper, or Brute, or Blaster controlled by a madman, etc) because they can control the aggro sufficiently and bring more damage to boot.

That's why I disagree with the breaking down of a characters roles into x and y and saying well, AT A does x better than AT B and AT C does y better than AT B, therefore AT B has no purpose. That make sense now?

Not quite. I was in fact saying that everything my brute contributed to a team, my Bots/Traps did better. There is nothing my brute brings to a team that my Bots/Traps does not do better.

That's why I disagree with your comparison to my Warshade. There is no other AT that I can play to duplicate all the things he does.

EDIT: This is my quote I'm referring to:

Both roles of the brute are surpassed by the same character. This is not saying "a Tank is better at aggro control and a scrapper is better at damage, so the Brute is useless." I agree that's a ridiculous statement.

But of course there is. Illusion/Cold Controllers can tank things with PA, they can control stuff and they can do lots of AoE damage with the Ice or Fire APP. Fire/Traps Corruptors can tank things (I'm sure you're aware of how well Traps can tank with Provoke), control things with PGT and Fire delivers the nuking. A Stone/WP Brute can control aggro, control mobs with Fault and deal lots of damage. Same could be said for SS/whatever brutes though Footstomp comes a good deal later than fault. An Earth/Psi Dominator can obviously control mobs, tank them if they take Provoke (survive the aggro with their controls, DP and APP/PPP shield) and deal lots of damage in the process. There are lots of combinations and ATs that can control aggro, control mobs and deal lots of damage.

The WS may be better at some or even all of those abilities than some of those combos. Similarly, some of them may perform some or all of those abilities or roles better than the WS. But this does not mean the WS has no purpose.

Edit: Unless of course you mean no other AT can duplicate the shape-shifting, rather than the roles the different forms contribute. In which case, your WS is a unique snowflake. Except for Peacebringers. And no one plays those

Thank you, im trying quite hard to be this wrong. XD

I really would love to see this MM, it sounds amazing. It seems what you ran into was a combination of two things.
A ****** brute and an MM that goes beyond the impossible, cranks it up to 11 AND divided by zero. In short, a badass. And it seems to have affected your opinion of brutes. I know the opposite happened to me (not exactly with just MMs though) my brute is badass, he tends to bring more dmg than a decent chunk of blasters i run into as well as out survive quite a few tanks i've run across. So to me, brutes are actually one of the best melee ATs in the game, but really i just happen to enjoy playing them.
Would an equally good scrapper bring more dmg? of course
Would an equally good tank be more survivable? damn right

But to ME a brute is amazing, just like to you a bot/trap or WS is amazing. Our favorite toons, if we play them a lot, end up affecting the very way we think about the game. Because when I hear “stun 10 targets permanently” I simply think “you should have just killed them with fire” But that doesn’t mean being able to do that is useless, infact its pretty freakin useful, I just don’t enjoy it.

Emphasis mine here:

Yes, there are do it all characters like a Warshade. Some of them may even be just as fun were I to try them. But there's nothing in my stable I can pick up.

That's certainly not the case. I can show you the Brute's build, and there's nothing ****** about him. The brute is Claws/DA and sits at 32.5% defense to S/L/E/N with enough recharge to Dark Regen every nine seconds if he needs to. Follow Up, Death Shroud, Spin, Eviscerate and Shockwave are nothing short of jaw dropping, and as long as I'm eatting a small purple inspiration every so often, I've been able to handle any enemy group I've tried on +4/x8, and even managed to solo the Pylon in an Apex TF. I just didn't have room for taunt, so the aggro control he does is limited to "accidental" and "I've been tearing a hole in this AV for a while so he seems to not like me."

The Bots/Traps, though, does "crank it up to eleven." He has softcapped defense to S/L and Ranged, while above 40% to everything else except psionic, which is only 35%. He has 1142 hit points, almost 50% higher than base, and regenerates 28.4 HP/second before Aid Self. Before you count bodyguard mode, he has 41.7% resistance to S/L and Energy. After you consider bodyguard mode, those attributes are effectively at 85% and everything else at 75%. He has more survival than most tanks this way, and can even use Seeker Drones to absorb particularly harsh alphas and also debuff tohit and damage. Speaking of debuffs, stacking Acid Mortars multiply already impressive damage and Poison Gas Trap floors almost anyone's regen. The bots themselves are all softcapped to everything, but that doesn't matter because I don't let them take aggro. +4/x8 maps? No problem. AVs? I solo'd the Clockwork King before the rest of the team got down to that floor with Penelope. GMs? So far I've been able to do every one I've tried: Deathsurge, Scrapyard, Kracken, Paladin, Jurrassik and a Lattice on Monster Island.

Bots/Traps is not a Mastermind. It's an archetype all its own.

I think the part you are missing is that a damage dealer AT functions like a leech in any scenario where they are teamed with a buffer/debuffer.

The Bots/Traps can do amazing things on its own, of that we all know.

However, RAW DPS gets magnified by those debuffs you're bringing to the table - and the top end damage dealers most likely have much greater RAW DPS than your Bots/Traps does.

The simplest way to test this is to do two runs against a pylon, one with your -res and -regen applied to the Pylon and one without.

At that point you will have your raw dps contribution and you can then compare it to top end damage dealers to see just how far ahead they may (or perhaps may not) be with the mindset that whatever -res and -regen you bring to the table, they get to leech off of and magnify their already incredible DPS.

This is just another reason why I prefer to bring the Bots/Traps on a team. I multiply the effectiveness of everyone else on the team. Nothing you've said has made my Brute seem more appealing to take on a team.

As for my raw DPS, I don't care what it really is. I know it's plenty because I'm not always laying acid mortars when I solo. On anything less than +3, it's just not worth the time.