Where do the archetypes rank (in fun) for you?

There is a tipping point where raw dps becomes very valuable, it just appears that you seem biased against it or do not value it.

I also have a very hard time believing that your Bots/Traps brings the same level of value to the Lambda split phase as any well built Brute or Scrapper would do.


For someone who has a lengthy write up on the value of the softcap and all of the numbers behind it, as well as a numbers based breakdown on the survivability of your bots/traps in this thread, I find the phrase "I know it's plenty" without any math or actual testing behind it to be funny to come from the same person.


It would be as if someone was posting adamantly about how good their survivability is "because I don't die alot" without actually knowing their defense numbers and having never once opened their combat info window to check.


This is something that came up in a thread on WS as well Dechs, you seem quite willing to extoll the virtues of certain builds but then when it comes time to actually show what the real DPS capabilities of said combo are, you simply brush it off or refuse to bring real numbers to the table to back up your opinion.


How can you know how good something is at dealing damage if you've never bothered to check?

I would think that someone who seems to enjoy the math in the game so much would actually be interested in this.

This is a radical position that surely makes assumptions that do not always hold true. (Edit: In rereading the context of the thread, I think you were making a point that I reinforce below, not disagree with.)

How about a somewhat simplistic example. Let's assume we had 7 characters that can each add +35% damage, apply -20% DR to foes, and have a 400% damage multiplier cap. Do they deal more damage adding another character just like themselves, or adding someone with a 500% multiplier cap who deals 1.7x as much base damage?

Assume everyone has attacks slotted with ED-"capped" damage around +100%, and everyone deals sustained DPS equal to their base damage times the same constant, so that our "damage dealer" deals 1.7x the sustained DPS of any of the buff/debuff characters.Assume all foes are even-level.

If we add an 8th buff/debuff, all 8 characters are saturated at the damage cap (+280% from buffs, ~+100% from enhancement, 100% base is 480%, capped at 400%.). Even-level foes they face will take 1+(8 *0.2) = 2.6x damage dealt due to DR debuffs. So everyone on the team is dealing about 4.7x as much damage as they would normally (where "normally" includes their enhancements and individual damage buffs), and the team of 8 therefore deals 37.8x the damage of one of the buff/debuff characters.

Instead, lets make the 8th character our damage dealer. Our buffs drop to +245%, which still caps the 7 buff/debuff folks, but not the new damage character - they're at 445% of base. The debuffs drop to 2.4x.

2.4*(7*(4/2.25)+1.7*(4.45/2)) = 38.94.

Adding one damage dealer increased the total DPS of the team more that adding one more debuffer. Only a little more, but it was still more.

Now, my numbers were clearly synthetic. They aren't meant to completely lack relationship to the game, but there are a ton of factors that will affect the real delivered DPS or average buff/debuff stats a team really produces - idealized team buff, debuff and DPS numbers like I used in the example never happen in practice in a sustained way. As a result, we might choose different numbers to make a "better" model, and that could provide different outcomes. But the goal was to show that we can't unconditionally say that adding someone who doesn't buff and/or debuff is always somehow making the team worse overall. If they do their job, they could easily improve it.

Now, even if my numbers were great, did the team need to optimize out the best DPS increase? Was it somehow going to fail if they didn't get 38.94 instead of 37.8? Not bloody likely. But not needing to maximize is not the same as the damage dealer "leeching" if they at least make the team break even compared to adding the alternatives. The only time I would even be open to that use of the term "leech" is if adding the damage dealer netted less DPS than adding another buffer/debuffer.

Using that (rather extreme) definition of "leeching", it seems more likely to me that a buff/debuff team is more likely to consider a Tanker a leech, not a damage dealer. The reason is that such teams tend to be able to buff themselves to such heights or debuff foes to such depths that they don't need aggro management. (That ignores that such teams also tend to be rich in control.)

I agree with everything that you said, my use of the term leech wasn't meant to be negative in connotation, so I should have chosen a better word.

In addition to all of your points, a damage dealer does exactly that. It is the one thing they are focused on, unlike buffers/debuffers that often need to reapply debuffs/buffs, etc.

From what you've posted so far, it sounds like your MM can do it all. It can solo AVs, it's ridiculously survivable, it's a force multiplier, etc.

And yet, you still hold your Tank in high esteem while your Brute just doesn't cut it. I'm curious as to why that is. If your MM far surpasses your Brute in terms of damage, that would imply an even larger discrepancy in damage between your MM and Tanker. You also stated that your MM has greater survivability than most Tankers here:

Not to mention, your MM does something a Tanker does not: it provides substantial buffs/debuffs as mentioned here:

So why does your Tanker have your respect while your Brute does not when it seems like your MM in your mind is more effective overall than both of them?

Even in the Lambda split phase, I find myself soloing containers and crates.

My point is that if I'm on a map set for +2/x8, I don't find myself moving any faster with the Acid mortar than I do without it, so my raw DPS must be "enough."

Further, I think the raw DPS is a purely academic value with no real meaning because I will always have my Acid Mortar. Further, the only time this value becomes important is when the enemy resistance has reached a floor, which is at -300% if I'm not mistaken.

I have never compared my Tank's aggro holding capability to that of my Bots/Traps. If the role required is holding aggro to keep people alive, there is no doubt in my mind the Tank is the better choice. He has an auto hit taunt that my Brute and Bots/Traps do not. He is much more mobile and able to deal with ambushes and over aggro. I do think he has more survivability than my Bots/Traps.

The Bots/Traps handles aggro just as well as my Brute, perhaps better. That is not true of all Brutes, or even most of them. I simply chose to focus my Brute on dealing damage.

I can't help but wonder if your view on Brutes would be dramatically different if you did take Taunt. I suspect it would. Mathematically**, I can't see any reason why a Tanker could produce more threat than a similarly slotted Brute. They have the same threat mod, the same taunt durations (Taunt, auras, and single target Gauntlet), and deal more damage. If the Brute and Tanker are fighting for aggro on the same target, then Bruising would boost the Brute's damage/threat generation more-so than it would the Tanker.

The only wild-card is how strong the effect of Gauntlet's AoE would be, but I think it gets lost in the noise - especially since its radius is non-standard and can be borderline ridiculous in some cases. (Scorch has a radius of *4*. Quick Strike and Jab have a radius of *3*.)


** I say mathematically because I haven't built a Brute to tank as of yet. I only have one lvl50 Brute, and while I'm alright at designing builds, I really don't enjoy the process of actually assembling them.

You're exactly right on this one, this is something Deus brought up earlier*. All things being equal, a Brute is going to generate more threat than a Tanker more often than not due to their higher damage.

As you say, Tankers do have a slight advantage in their Gauntlet being AoE, but that isn't a significant factor as soon as the Brute gets their PBAoE. Which is always going to be sooner than the Tanker, comparing the same attack sets.

*Edit: Here

It is important, because without understanding your Bots/Traps Raw DPS or a Damage Dealers Raw DPS you don't really know which of them is benefiting more from flooring the enemies resistances & regen. (Its the damage dealer, btw, by a huge margin).

This is what UberGuy was talking about.

The only way I can illustrate this is through my Fire/Rad Corr.

My Fire/Rad Corr can take out a pylon in 4 minutes using his debuffs to reduce the pylons' resistance and regen, and then follows up with the best ST attack chain available to any corrupter. He takes out the pylon faster than any of my top end Brutes or Scrappers do.

Yet, when he finds himself soloing the Lambda Split phase (which he can do) his ability to take out crates and containers is slower than any of them. His speed at taking out the surrounding enemies is also slower. And while he is applying debuffs, the brutes and scrappers are already pounding away with a headstart.


That's because he is now facing a target where -regen is meaningless, which is something the damage dealer doesn't rely on. Raw DPS is now the deciding factor and Scrapper or Brute > Corr for Raw DPS.



Its fine, you didn't address my other points above about the math behind damage dealing, so I'm assuming its a topic your either not willing to discuss or simply see no value in.

Its also why you most likely do not value damage dealers - I guess everyone has their built-in biases.

By acknowledging some of your Tanker's strengths, e.g., mobility, auto hit Taunt, you acknowledge that your Brute could also have these characteristics. The fact that you did not take Taunt on your Brute is a self imposed, artificial limitation. However, your Brute still has better mobility than your MM. This gives it an advantage in certain situations. Even without Taunt, your Brute could also be very effective at controlling aggro and mob positioning should you choose to use him in this manner. Being able to group up mobs tightly can be a huge advantage on a team.

So the reality is your Brute can do some things more effectively than your MM. The potential is there. The only reason the above quote might be true is if you are overlooking some of its potential.

It seems that this would be the best option at this point. Instead of insisting that your Brute is inferior to your Tank or MM in its current state, try making some modifications that may increase your enjoyment of it on teams. At least don't sell your Brute short while there is still room for improvement. We all have characters we default to because we know they are awesome and are comfortable with them, but sometimes it also pays to rediscover or reinvent a character you possibly underestimated at first.

I'm more than willing to do some math on it; I'm simply not in the position to do that now. What I could do is try to compare optimal chains for each of the bots using values from redtomax, but I'm not certain how the level differences will be affected or that the bots could keep up optimal chains reliably.

I'm willing to put it to a test, (as I have done in the past*) but I've had a lot of other things going on this week that haven't allowed me the time. When I haven't been at work, I've been spending my time preparing for the in character party which is so important to have taken the place of "Dark Armor Sucks" in my signature.

*You sparked quite the enlightenment for me last time with the Warshade when it came to determining single target attack chains. I was surprised to find that I in fact get better single target DPS out of Dwarf than either human or Nova. I have since respec'd the shade to get comparable single target DPS in human form, while maintaining some important control capabilities.

As much as I love my tank, I've come to realize that the Brute does indeed have more potential. I think that was one of my fears when building the Brute, and probably the reason I didn't build him to actively tank.

It's more than just the AT difference, though. I love claws, now, both for its damage and control capabilities. I wish my Tank were anything but fire melee. The damage is great, but there is no control to it. I've had to rely on Ancillary powers to fill that gap. I find it's all to easy to protect teammates with [Shockwave], and it does heaps of damage as well.




In the end, Deus, Silas, Amyg, and Uber, you guys have given me a lot to think about. I love my Tank; I love the character. I haven't been willing to see this: but he's just not the optimal choice for most content in the game. Looking back, I can't really remember the last time I used my tank for a team (of course, I did just spend three of the last four weeks out of town).

I'm usually a pretty stubborn individual (like I needed to say that), so call this a win if you want. Thinking about it now, I'd be able to easily drop my travel power on the Brute for Taunt. Beast Run still works.

Well...yay!

I'm glad that gave you a new angle to explore for your WS. Cool stuff.



Well, I wouldn't go deleting your Tanker anytime in the near or far future.

Maybe post the current incarnation of the Brute in the Brute forums. I'd hate to see you lose a travel power.

Here, you describe what has kept me from ranking ATs. For me, it's more about combinations of power sets than ATs wholesale. For example, I love my Mind Dominator but I don't love playing all types of Dominators. For some ATs, certain power set combinations just stand out to me as being much more enjoyable when compared to the rest.

This fact has also encouraged me not to dismiss an AT because of a bad experience with a particular combination. It could be that I didn't land on a fun combination at first. Luckily, there are lots of combinations out there to try.

I dunno if you've seen it, but my Warshade's build is posted here.

The only time I hang out in human form for extended periods of time is during AV fights, and the new build allows me to run Orbiting Death and Assault while maintaining a respectable attack chain that also happens to immobilize the AV.

I wouldn't delete him... not quite. I'd remake him as Kinetic Melee, if anything. It's only the story I've made up for him that has been keeping the Fire. That and how he has 2 million prestige earned for the SG I'm in. And having to level him all over again. And earning all of the Mo badges again which won't be as hard this time around with incarnate powers, but still... Oh, who am I kidding ... I'll never delete that tank.

The current is no different than the last you saw in a thread long ago. You helped me optimize it to where it is, and it didn't include taunt then and I'm pretty sure you brought it up as a concern.

Unfortunately WS are not something I'm well versed enough in to give you a real opinion.


Expect a PM, I have a few ideas.


I'll dig it up then, and see if there is any squeezing that can be done.

The last thing I would be happy about would be the idea that I helped you send a character you enjoy (for whatever reason) to the bit bucket. CoH doesn't need maximal optimal team composition, even for some of its most extreme content. If you enjoy the character, you should play it! I understand your world view of performance may get in the way of your enjoyment, but just the fact that you've been able to enjoy it so long should be a hint that you don't have to be numerically optimal to have a good time.

Very true, and remember, I'm the "Any build, any budget, no exclusions" guy anyway.

It's more that I'm heavily considering my Brute as an aggro control capable character than considering my Tank as obsolete. I've no illusions that my Tank will no longer have a place. He'll never cease to be fun, either, if for no other reason than I enjoy his story and /em kata-ing in front of Lord Recluse. I'm just seeing more of the overlap.

Indeed, what UberGuy said. If you enjoy the character, they're not obsolete. The Tanker hasn't stopped being effective.

As you say, there's just overlap between what the Brute can do and what the Tanker can do. Which is as it should be Glad I was able to help you see things from a new perspective. Good luck with the Brute rework!