Where do the archetypes rank (in fun) for you?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-08-25 11:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
My priority list really looks something like this.
- Primary damage melee
- Foe Debuff
- Primary ranged damage
- Control
- Ally Buff
- Pets
With that large caveat in mind, though, I can probably map my AT preference roughly like this.
- Scrapper
- Brute / melee VEAT (tie)
- Debuffing Corruptor/Defender (tie)
- Stalker
- Debuffing Controller
- Ranged, pet or hybrid VEAT, Warshade (cloudy tie)
- Tanker
- Dominator
- Blaster
- Peacebringer
- Ally buffing Corruptor/Defender (tie)
- Ally buffing Controller
- Mastermind
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Right, but my point is the same could be said for Brutes or Scrappers. Playing Scrappers or Brutes as pure damage dealers is a purely artificial limitation placed on them solely by the player at the controls. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
[...]Sure, I stay alive, too, but if I were a tank, my personal survival matters because I serve the purpose of controlling aggro.
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Sure, Tankers are better equipped to control aggro, but that doesn't mean Scrappers and Brutes are unable to.
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Quote:
Unless the scrapper doesn't have a taunt aura, which is certainly the case for a majority of them. I'll give you brutes, and I do enjoy my brute because he can very effectively tank. I just don't team with my brute often because, on a team, I'd enjoy being the tank more.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Right, but my point is the same could be said for Brutes or Scrappers. Playing Scrappers or Brutes as pure damage dealers is a purely artificial limitation placed on them solely by the player at the controls.
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But just as I don't build a tank with a focus on dealing damage, I don't build the brute to control aggro. The tank deals some damage and the brute controls some aggro. Each focus, and each purpose, seems clear to me.
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1. Controller
2. Everything else.
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
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1. Fortunata
2. Peacebringer
3. Bane
4. Warshade
5. Corruptor
6. Brute
7. Blaster
8. Dominator
9. Scrapper
10. Tanker
11. Controller
12. Defender
13. Stalker
14. Mastermind
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
1) Scrappers - this is the comic book super hero AT imo. In fact, when I think of what AT closely resembles most superheroes it's this AT (though obviously CoH doesn't fall in line very well with the comic book universes).
2) Corruptors - The blasts are primary, and this is the closest to playing a ranged character while still feeling like at a Scrapper level (this means using IOs of course)
3) Soldier - Petless Crab build? OMG! If it wasn't for the fact that the backpack is part of the fun, I'd rank this higher (ie...concept limiting).
4) Widows - It's like playing an SR Scrapper with more range attacks and stealth!
5) Stalkers - I love the concept of them! They'd be tied for 1st if their damage didn't feel so inferior to Scrappers.
6) Dominators - It's like how a Controller should of been from the start, only I don't usually have a concept that I like for them. 
7) Brutes - It's like playing a Scrapper, only I can't alt tab out or go afk whenever I want without feeling like I screwed over my damage!
8) Almost everything else!
14) Masterminds - They just bore me to no end! I love the concepts I've had for some of them, but actually playing them...meh.
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Mew likes to play them all.....
Guess since mew has more of them then other Archtypes then Stalker would be first...
And The soldiers and widows last because mew cant seam to get motivated to play them for very long.
Quote:
I'm going to have to disagree on this point. Many Scrappers can still control aggro even without a Taunt aura, or even the ST Taunt. Certainly not as effectively as one with either of those tools, but that doesn't mean they can't at all. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Unless the scrapper doesn't have a taunt aura, which is certainly the case for a majority of them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'll give you brutes, and I do enjoy my brute because he can very effectively tank. I just don't team with my brute often because, on a team, I'd enjoy being the tank more.
But just as I don't build a tank with a focus on dealing damage, I don't build the brute to control aggro. The tank deals some damage and the brute controls some aggro. Each focus, and each purpose, seems clear to me. |
If I'm understanding you correctly, the Tanker is first and foremost there for aggro control, secondarily for damage. Totally agree with that one. For the Brute, its the other way around. There I disagree a little, but close enough to work with it. A Brute might not be able to control aggro as well as a Tanker (debateable, but let's go with it) but that doesn't mean they're devoid of purpose.
What I'm getting at is that one AT being better equipped for a task doesn't mean the other AT has no purpose. If I can go all reductio ad absurdum for a minute, that'd mean there would be no point to playing anything other than a Blaster, Tanker, Defender and the Tanker and Defender shouldn't bother using their secondaries. After all, nothing controls aggro as well as a Tanker, nothing deals damage like a Blaster and nothing buffs/debuffs better than a Defender.
However, we both know that's absurd, right? Hybrid ATs exist in this game and all have purpose. Or can be given purpose by the player at the controls. Actually, the entire purpose of a given character or AT is arguably entirely decided by the player at the controls. But I digress. Characters have a primary and secondary set, so there's no reason they should be limited to a single purpose
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Fun question.
My short list goes, in order:
1. Mastermind
2. Defender
3. Corruptor
Then, in no particular order:
Controller
Stalker
Scrapper
Brute
Dominator
Nothing after that. I don't enjoy Tanks, Blasters, EATs or VEATs (sacrilege, I know).
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
My very short list:
1) Dominator
2) Controller
I don't really enjoy anything other than those two ATs (and I've tried) but if I had to list them...
3) Corruptor
4) Mastermind
5) Blaster
6) VEATs
7) Defender
8) HEATs
9) Brute
10) Stalker
11) Scrapper
12) Tanker
Quote:
That's an artificial limitation you're placing on the AT due to what I imagine is a preference for a "specialist".|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
But just as I don't build a tank with a focus on dealing damage, I don't build the brute to control aggro. The tank deals some damage and the brute controls some aggro. Each focus, and each purpose, seems clear to me.
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It's fine if you prefer playing a specialist but ultimately that is a self imposed artificial limitation.
A Brute is not a specialist like a Tanker, they are a Hybrid.
Selecting only one aspect of their capabilities limits the full potential of the AT.
The effectiveness of the Brute AT as a hybrid can be summed up with the idea of "enough".
A well built and well played Brute has "enough" mitigation, "enough" damage dealing capability and "enough" threat generation potential to cover all three areas very well.
As an aside, Tankers in general may have better overall AoE threat generation regardless of primary due to Gauntlet's AoE effect, but the lack of AoE Gauntlet can be minimized on a Brute with at least 1 solid AoE attack - in addition, against a single hard target (assuming equivalent powersets & taunt) the Brute will generate greater threat against that ST than the Tanker will.
And lastly, if you are not building and playing your Brute to hold as much (or enough, as it were) aggro as possible - then you would most likely be better off with a Scrapper.
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It's not so much that you've misunderstood. I've simply failed to communicate properly.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but it seems you're contradicting yourself.
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Let me just go through this case by case. I'll admit right now that my perspective is biased due to the characters I play.
I enjoy playing my Tank on a team when the team needs someone to control aggro. He has been built to reliably survive anything the game can throw at him, as well as maintain solid aggro control, and even deal with over the aggro cap situations. When the team does not need someone to hold aggro, I feel my purpose is lost, and I stop enjoying him knowing that the team would be better off if I were playing just about anything else.
I enjoy playing my Brute solo. He's built to survive well enough and rip my enemies to pieces. This means I did not take the Taunt power, nor can I reliably survive anything the game can throw at him. I don't enjoy playing him on a team because he is always at his best playing like a soloist. If the team needs aggro control, he can generally handle the task, but I know the Tank would have more tools to do the job better. If the team doesn't need aggro control, then again, they would be better served by a different character of mine which brings other things in addition to damage (and likely even more damage).
I enjoy playing my Bots/Traps (remember, I count this as an AT all its own) almost all the time. Damage in spades, team buffs, debuffs, limited aggro control, and personal survivability. Solos whatever it pleases and multiplies the force of a team. The only time I don't enjoy him is when his own aggro control abilities do not prove enough.
I enjoy playing my MFing Warshade. No caveats.
Deus, this should explain things better for you, too.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
And lastly, if you are not building and playing your Brute to hold as much (or enough, as it were) aggro as possible - then you would most likely be better off with a Scrapper.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I think it's more that a team expects a Tank to be able to keep all the aggro centred on them, and to keep an eye out for stray mobs. Whereas a Scrapper/Brute's focus is more on wading into a crowd to cause as much carnage as possible, and as a result teams expect less aggro management from them. It's not that they can't control aggro, just that they're not expected to. The mechanics lean towards this too, with Gauntlet vs. Fury/the scrapper Criticals one.
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Originally Posted by Silas
What I'm getting at is that one AT being better equipped for a task doesn't mean the other AT has no purpose.
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Quote:
Heh, I think there's mutual misunderstanding here, we seem to be talking past one another. I understand that you play different characters for different reasons, I'm the same way. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It's not so much that you've misunderstood. I've simply failed to communicate properly.
Let me just go through this case by case. I'll admit right now that my perspective is biased due to the characters I play. I enjoy playing my Tank on a team when the team needs someone to control aggro. He has been built to reliably survive anything the game can throw at him, as well as maintain solid aggro control, and even deal with over the aggro cap situations. When the team does not need someone to hold aggro, I feel my purpose is lost, and I stop enjoying him knowing that the team would be better off if I were playing just about anything else. I enjoy playing my Brute solo. He's built to survive well enough and rip my enemies to pieces. This means I did not take the Taunt power, nor can I reliably survive anything the game can throw at him. I don't enjoy playing him on a team because he is always at his best playing like a soloist. If the team needs aggro control, he can generally handle the task, but I know the Tank would have more tools to do the job better. If the team doesn't need aggro control, then again, they would be better served by a different character of mine which brings other things in addition to damage (and likely even more damage). I enjoy playing my Bots/Traps (remember, I count this as an AT all its own) almost all the time. Damage in spades, team buffs, debuffs, limited aggro control, and personal survivability. Solos whatever it pleases and multiplies the force of a team. The only time I don't enjoy him is when his own aggro control abilities do not prove enough. I enjoy playing my MFing Warshade. No caveats. |
What I was responding to was you saying you felt Tankers were the only melee AT which serves a purpose on a team (quote below). Which I disagree with, since I feel that purpose for a character is something the player decides.
My own opinion on melee ATs is that they all do basically the same thing, contribute damage and aggro control. To varying degrees and in different ways, but it boils down to those two factors. Not to plug my shamelessly plug my melee teaming guide, but that's the core idea I worked with for it.
Tankers can control aggro much effectively than they deal damage. At the other end of the spectrum, Stalkers can deal damage much more effectively than they control aggro. The point is that all the melee ATs can do both, therefore should not be limited to one purpose. Or said to have no purpose at all.
I'm probably not explaining this very well, the tl;dr version would be: no melee AT is without purpose since purpose is player defined and all melee ATs can contribute melee damage and aggro control to varying degrees.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
[...]It's the only melee AT that actually serves a purpose on a team. Yeah, the others kill stuff well and survive ok, but they don't have purpose[...]
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1. Defender: Love my Rad/Sonic and perhaps the most fun I've EVER had in this game is playing my Traps/AR
2. Brutes.
3. Dominator (although the only one I've been able to get into is Plant/Fire)
4. Blaster/Corruptor/Scrapper/Controller tie (depends on my mood)
5. Other
...
15. Mastermind (boooorrrring)
16. Tank (generally the least useful and most boring AT in the game imho.)
But seriously, if you haven't tried it and you want a change of pace, roll a Traps/AR (or AR/Traps). So much fun.
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
Dechs, what purpose does your warshade have? Knocking things back so they are out of the range of the melee toons? Bringing lackluster dmg to the team? Being all around ****** unless it's in optimal conditions? :P
In all seriousness no AT has a purpose, purpose is created by the players. Sure, defs are better suited for buffs/debuffs than other ATs but you can sure as hell play it like a blaster if you want.
I would make that argument that "hybrid" (like cors/brutes etc) ATs are BETTER than the ATs with "purpose." But i won’t go into that.
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-Al Gore
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@Caucasiafro
Quote:
I understand where you're coming from now, and I think I see the root of the problem. I believe that you either need aggro control or you don't. If you do, get a tank. If you don't, get someone better at dealing damage than a melee AT is or another force multiplier.|
Originally Posted by Silas
What I was responding to was you saying you felt Tankers were the only melee AT which serves a purpose on a team (quote below). Which I disagree with, since I feel that purpose for a character is something the player decides.
My own opinion on melee ATs is that they all do basically the same thing, contribute damage and aggro control. To varying degrees and in different ways, but it boils down to those two factors. Not to plug my shamelessly plug my melee teaming guide, but that's the core idea I worked with for it. |
There's technically a third scenario, which is that you only need aggro control for a portion of the task. In this case, a scrapper or brute is better to have because for everywhere that aggro control is not needed, the scrapper or brute contributes more damage than the tank, so long as that scrapper or brute can actually hold the aggro when it's needed. I haven't been ignoring it, I just don't think it should exist. If you don't need a Tank for most of your task, just eat purples for the AV and be happy.
Again, when my Brute joins a team, his purpose is to kill things. When it comes down to it, my Bots/Traps does a much better job at killing things, especially on a team where he multiplies force. The Brute's secondary purpose is to absorb alphas and hold AV aggro, but the Bots/Traps that just as well.
In my mind, when your primary and secondary purpose are both done better by someone else, you have no purpose.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Dechs, what purpose does your warshade have?
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You may want to remove what you say after that question. You don't want people to think you're too ignorant or being intentionally inflamatory.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I would love to meet this bot trap of yours.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Again, when my Brute joins a team, his purpose is to kill things. When it comes down to it, my Bots/Traps does a much better job at killing things, especially on a team where he multiplies force. The Brute's secondary purpose is to absorb alphas and hold AV aggro, but the Bots/Traps that just as well.
In my mind, when your primary and secondary purpose are both done better by someone else, you have no purpose. |
Quote:
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All of them. You may want to remove what you say after that question. You don't want people to think you're too ignorant. |
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Quote:
No it's not. You might be thinking of PBs. A warshade cycles a grand total of one AoE attack regularly that has a chance for KB: Dark (or Nova) Detonation. Nova Emanation does not have KB. Dwarf Mire has no KB. Gravitic Emanation is not an AoE attack, it is a control.|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Lol, it is true that WSs have KB in almost all of their AoEs
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
and a good amount of their ST attacks.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
They also bring very few debuffs other than -rech
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
And their control isnt all that great.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
But yeah, baiting :P
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree, then. This comes back to what Deus was saying about the concept of 'good enough'. A Brute can control aggro well enough for a given task where you need aggro control (which many Brutes can and do) as well as contribute their high damage. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I understand where you're coming from now, and I think I see the root of the problem. I believe that you either need aggro control or you don't. If you do, get a tank. If you don't, get someone better at dealing damage than a melee AT is or another force multiplier.
There's technically a third scenario, which is that you only need aggro control for a portion of the task. In this case, a scrapper or brute is better to have because for everywhere that aggro control is not needed, the scrapper or brute contributes more damage than the tank, so long as that scrapper or brute can actually hold the aggro when it's needed. I haven't been ignoring it, I just don't think it should exist. If you don't need a Tank for most of your task, just eat purples for the AV and be happy. Again, when my Brute joins a team, his purpose is to kill things. When it comes down to it, my Bots/Traps does a much better job at killing things, especially on a team where he multiplies force. The Brute's secondary purpose is to absorb alphas and hold AV aggro, but the Bots/Traps that just as well. In my mind, when your primary and secondary purpose are both done better by someone else, you have no purpose. |
Given that is the case, if we use your reasoning the Tanker has no purpose. The toughness and aggro controlling abilities of a Tanker can be replicated adequately on a Brute or Scrapper and they'll contribute far more damage.
Whereas that's not the case, all of the ATs can and do have purpose. Because again, purpose is almost entirely decided by the player at the controls.
Consider the following statements:
- I feel this AT has no purpose.
- This AT has no purpose.
Only two words dropped from the second statement but it drastically alters the meaning. One is a statement of personal preference, the other is a blanket statement about the validity of the Archetype.
By your own logic, your WS has no purpose on a team. If he's in Nova form, you'd be better off playing a Blaster. If you're in human form, you'd be better off playing a Scrapper, Controller or Blaster. If you're in Dwarf form, you'd be better off playing a Tanker.
But that's not the case. The fact that a WS can perform multiple roles is a strength. I don't see why the same reasoning cannot be applied to similarly hybridized ATs.
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This is an old debate. I consider its height around here to be comparisons between the original hero ATs and the (then new) villain ATs.
A crux of the debate was the claim that the hero ATs are specialists: Blasters are pure damage, Tankers pure meatshield, Defenders and Controllers pure "support", etc. All the CoV ATs were more generalized - everyone was capable of damage, and several were also capable of either being the meatshield or support, but (one side of the argument says) none of them were focused on it, and so none of them were as strong at it as the hero ATs. This side concluded that this made villain ATs inherently inferior, because a team of hero ATs shored up one another's weaknesses, and had higher peaks (more DPS, more damage soaking, etc.). There was a vocal other side, though, that felt that hero ATs were inherently flawed due to their focused nature. These players felt the villain ATs were the superior ones.
IMO, what side you're on in this depends on how important you think it is to solo content. For me, soloing is king. I build to solo, and if I can bring benefit to a team through the things that help me solo, that's great. That means most of my characters are generalists - they have to be good at damage dealing and damage mitigation. As a result, they may not be as good at either as a more specialized, team-oriented build would be.
Fortunately for people like me, unless we're talking about builds that strike some people as degenerate (powersets with shields that took no shields, petless Masterminds, etc.), not many people look down their nose a tough DPS character unless they have too many of them on team already, and almost no one looks down on debuffer (which all my soloing Defender/Corruptors/Controllers are) or crowed-control-wielder.
While I don't need to be openly inflammatory to do so, I agree with ultrawatt about Warshades and where they fit in this debate. I think a high-end Warshade is a thing of beauty, but I think it's very much a generalist who is not as strong at anything it does as a specialist AT in those things can be. It's something I would like, and seems out of place for you given how I'm reading your position on non-Tanker melee ATs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
This was my mistake. I intended my original statement to be read as a personal preference. When i21 comes out, I'll get a time manipulation character to come in here and reword it before this spirals out of control.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Consider the following statements:
Only two words dropped from the second statement but it drastically alters the meaning. One is a statement of personal preference, the other is a blanket statement about the validity of the Archetype. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silas
This comes back to what Deus was saying about the concept of 'good enough'. A Brute can control aggro well enough for a given task where you need aggro control (which many Brutes can and do) as well as contribute their high damage.
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Look, I'm the last guy in this game to get picky about what's on my team. I truly meant my original statement as personal preference when choosing my characters. I feel my brute has no place on a team. My tank only occasionally has purpose on a team. Those things make them not enjoyable in those situations.
I've run high level TFs with five tanks, a MoITF with a level 36 regen scrapper, an STF with a petless mastermind. My fifth rule is: Any build, any budget, no exclusions. And I stick to it. A rule with no exception lasts eternally.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Great! Now we're on the same page.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
But then I'd continue that to say a Blaster can control aggro "well enough" with the right player behind it.
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Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
I think the debate can be summed up by a question of extremes. Is the absolute optimal hero team better than the absolute optimal villain team?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is an old debate. I consider its height around here to be comparisons between the original hero ATs and the (then new) villain ATs.
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We'd have to first agree on the optimal team setups, but I doubt it would matter. When everything is debuffed to the floor, and every teammate is buffed to the caps, nothing matters anymore because brawl one shots Lord Recluse.
So to answer the question, I pose another one. Are we still having fun?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
While I don't need to be openly inflammatory to do so, I agree with ultrawatt about Warshades and where they fit in this debate. I think a high-end Warshade is a thing of beauty, but I think it's very much a generalist who is not as strong at anything it does as a specialist AT in those things can be. It's something I would like, and seems out of place for you given how I'm reading your position on non-Tanker melee ATs.
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Where my warshade comes into this is that he is all the roles, not just "damage and aggro," like my brute. That and he's just too bloody fun all the time. Keep in mind that my Warshade is "the MFing Warhsade." I'm not half a blaster when I'm in Nova, I'm not half a Tanker when I'm in dwarf, I'm not capable of doing one role at a time. I don't play it like that at all.
I am all forms at all times. I am a character with a ranged AoE attack chain, three damage dealing pets, capped resistance and damage, the capability of locking down an entire spawn in control and pulling aggro off my teammates.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro