Honor? This is still a video-game forum, right?
I'll sell you some perspective for 1.5 billion influence. Global's in the sig...
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
People did, in the very early stages of the invention system, find a way to dupe rares. But other than that, the biggest change in rarity FOR RECIPES I know of has been, like, doubling or tripling the amount you could get. (WSTs, hero merits,etc.)
On the other hand, people used to be impresed when farmers made 10 million an hour. With the AE and such, I believe it's gone up by a factor of ten or twenty. [That may not be new-inf-added-to-game, it may be inf-moved-into-your-pocket. I don't keep track of farming that closely.]
I'm pleased that there are new inf sinks* ; I'm distressed that the inf sinks have not remotely kept up with the advances in farming technology.
* I realized today that an Ultimate insp usually takes 1 to 3 million inf out of the game in Wentfees; they gave me what I asked for, a decent-sized consumable inf sink. Beats the heck out of jetpacks for 10K...
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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It's roughly ~3M/min in inf generated on +4 solo, but the popular farms involve zoning in and out every 3 minutes or so. So, the net amount varies a fair bit based on your computer speed.| On the other hand, people used to be impresed when farmers made 10 million an hour. With the AE and such, I believe it's gone up by a factor of ten or twenty. [That may not be new-inf-added-to-game, it may be inf-moved-into-your-pocket. I don't keep track of farming that closely.] |
Fighting +4s is for powerleveling, and people who just farm tickets for money probably do so on +0, which I guess is... half the inf of a +4? Between that and the time spent actually rolling tickets, deleting recipes, crafting the good ones, I would guess farmers generate about 30-50M of real influence per hour, although I'm stacking a lot of "what if" on top of each other at this point, and powerlevelers about 15-75M of real influence per hour (amount would vary much more than farming as it depends how many people you're powerleveling as well as their levels, lowbies taking a share of the influence and getting much less influence).
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| Today they're prioritized by willingness and ability to pay inf, where after a cap it's prioritized by when you get in line. |
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Just a bit of an aside, but actually, unlike most other similar kind of non-inf reward, Ticket rewards actually do scale with foe con. A critter that's worth more XP or inf is worth more tickets, too. (Unless that's changed relatively recently. It worked that way for a long time.) As a result, I know farmers who do farm at +4. Now, I can't say that's actually optimal, since kill speed does decrease. However, with a level shift involved, a build with strong AoEs can probably be very near optimal like that.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Fighting +4s is for powerleveling, and people who just farm tickets for money probably do so on +0, which I guess is... half the inf of a +4?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
True, but you're going to hit the ticket cap on +0/x8/bosses already. One other option (probably fastest?) is to raise the rep and stick to lieuts, although that also means no juicy boss influence.
Regardless, there's probably a fair amount of people farming on +4 like you say, for many different reasons. I was a bit quick to assume most would do it on +0.
I wouldn't farm at +4s. Even with the xtra inf per kill and all. I PL people at +4s, but hitting the ticket cap under 2 minutes at +0 and rerunning the farm is faster than killing at +4s and hitting the cap in a few more minutes. The ticket rolls pay off for me more than the inf per kill. Sorry, no actual numbers on hand but doing it everyday, i feel secure in my statement.
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I'm pretty sure I could get stupidly rich in good order with a system and store that started pricing items at a large chunk below average market price. I endorse this idea heartily. I may even make this my new dev request, since they still haven't put in the market caps I've spent years requesting.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
The only 'gotcha' would be setting prices: I'd set initial prices 20 percent under the last 1000 market trades, re-calculating and rounding that price every hour, until the supply/demand/deflation settles down.
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RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
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Be interesting to see how many of the big PvP IOs are sold off market compared to on. I know a few are sold off market (but from the forums it doesn't seem to be that many), and I've seen them advertised in channels on freedumb, but that's a stat that's very difficult to assess. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No Min. Capping isn't the answer. Placing artificial price ceilings on things will only force transactions for those things off the legitimate marketplaces (see PVP IOs).
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The point is to set the cap high enough that there isn't the incentive to put up with the extra hassle of going off market. When prices were 4BN, people sold off market, when the going rate crept down to 2.5BN, i suspect less did, but can't prove that.
To Fulmens - put a 5% tax on trades/email influence transfers to characters not on the same account would get some influence removal on off market transactions.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Minotaur- I'd go for 10%, like market fees, but I might be greedy like that.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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If it was a floating / updated price based on history, I agree.|
Originally Posted by RagManX
I'm pretty sure I could get stupidly rich in good order with a system and store that started pricing items at a large chunk below average market price. I endorse this idea heartily. I may even make this my new dev request, since they still haven't put in the market caps I've spent years requesting.
RagManX |
To Lohenien's point, I also agree that the market isn't *broken*, but as a programmer,
I'd consider things selling above a physical cap (ie. 2B limit) as problematic
to the game (though I fully appreciate and enjoy Raggy's "Cap Prices" position).
So, if I were a dev for this game, and I *really* felt that 2B+ items had to be
corrected, I'd put just those items in a store for, say 1.5B flat price...
Sure, the first few days, savvy players could get rich on arbitrage transactions,
but that would be pretty short lived, the off-market sales would stop, and the
equilibrium price would settle to ~1.5B in fairly short order.
To be sure, that would raise supply, and I'd be somewhat concerned about that,
but I think off-market trading above the inf cap is a bigger issue (game-wise).
Additionally, any that sell at all from the vendor take a whopping 1.5 Billion
straight out of the economy...
WW needs a LOT of volume to accomplish that...
That said, I would only consider that on a case-by-case basis, or in a situation,
where I think a clear price cap would be useful (ie. perhaps Common Salvage,
like Common IO recipes, for instance).
Unlike mauk however, I'm not in favor of things that "devalue inf". I much prefer
the players to set supply, demand, and pricing for things (below 2B though,
to keep them ON the market).
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Wouldn't doing that just cause marketeers with two accounts to market on both? I already split mine up like this. I think the only people who would really get taxed are people who use a second account for PL or something like that.
True I have more inf on my main account, but I also have a lot more toons. Even on a server basis there is always one toon there that has a big stack o' cash.
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I have 2 accounts and have no need to use toons to market. I farm or run mishes/tfs or whatever and sell the drops i dont need and have been able to purple out toons, softcap toons on both accounts without having to use any of them to sit in WW/BM and buy/sell large stacks, craft, or flip and still have several toons as inf holders at the cap.
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Wouldn't doing that just cause marketeers with two accounts to market on both? I already split mine up like this. I think the only people who would really get taxed are people who use a second account for PL or something like that.
True I have more inf on my main account, but I also have a lot more toons. Even on a server basis there is always one toon there that has a big stack o' cash. |
This thread is dishonorable.
Devil > people against him.
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Note the word "started".|
Originally Posted by RagManX
I'm pretty sure I could get stupidly rich in good order with a system and store that started pricing items at a large chunk below average market price.
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Far more important than your short-sighted arbitrage greed, this would have the effect of tearing inf out of the game in vast quantities. Every transaction you made at the store, giggling over your cup of tears, would simply accelerate the shrinkage of the money pool. Which is exactly the point. I would thank you for your efforts.
However, all that filthy lucre you accumulate would then be devalued wholesale if you tried to sit on it. Flip quickly, padawan.
After you get the money supply dried up, then set the prices to float above the market by a moderate percentage (say 5) with some pre-set hard cap in the store. IE, if prices rise on the market, once LOTG's hit (picking a random number) 201 million the store price doesn't move higher and inf starts coming out of the system until it equilibrates again. if you average over long enough periods, this should keep the illusion the store is price-competitive and maintain a steady drain.
That way you would not have to tinker with inf drop rates.
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I endorse this idea heartily. I may even make this my new dev request, since they still haven't put in the market caps I've spent years requesting. RagManX |
Your support is appreciated.
Although I suspect not for the reasons you think.
Only that money wouldn't be devalued if you sat on it. It would increase in value at an insane rate.
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I don't think you're considering the full possibilities for entertainment and abuse offered by any kind of floating store price linked to the market.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Far more important than your short-sighted arbitrage greed, this would have the effect of tearing inf out of the game in vast quantities. Every transaction you made at the store, giggling over your cup of tears, would simply accelerate the shrinkage of the money pool. Which is exactly the point. I would thank you for your efforts.
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F'rex, look at what Ragman managed to do to the price of KB IOs in this thread. Now imagine what people with very large amounts of inf could do to the flow of IOs into the game with a system that allowed them to drive down a store price arbitrarily low simply by manipulating the market price.
If you're going to assume rational market use, you have to remember that one of the rationales is going to be 'for the lolz'.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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There is an analogy that, for me, works the other way entirely. The folks shown in that program are disgusting parasites who absolutely take advantage of other people's misfortunes or deaths (the valuable items they find in abandoned storage are not abandoned for any other reason). To me, that is a display of avarice akin to graverobbing, by people who appear to believe the world exists to give them a posh life despite their contributing nothing of value.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
There's a show on Spike TV called "Auction Hunters". It's about two guys who go around bidding on stuff in storage units hoping to hit the jackpot being able to resell the stuff that's in the units. That's how I view people who flip...
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But I don't know if I find marketeering in CoH comparable to that, as most of the items involved are regularly replenished. "Flippers" may not do the hunting, but those who actually do want to roll over their unneeded drops in the market don't often have all their character slots dedicated to it and are probably happy to get a lower price if it frees their slots as they collect more, as well as benefiting from the inflation caused by the flippers most of the time. Nobody in that chain seems to be put out... though it is a bit of a problem when certain IOs (or even the recipes) are not seeing the market at all anymore because they've inflated beyond the two billion mark.
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What a crock. The property becomes abandoned. The storage business decides to auction it off. And you say the people who buy it are parasites? Where does that come from? If no one buys the stuff, it goes into a dumpster. Is that somehow better?
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Originally Posted by Mantic
There is an analogy that, for me, works the other way entirely. The folks shown in that program are disgusting parasites who absolutely take advantage of other people's misfortunes or deaths (the valuable items they find in abandoned storage are not abandoned for any other reason). To me, that is a display of avarice akin to graverobbing, by people who appear to believe the world exists to give them a posh life despite their contributing nothing of value.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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This noun phrase flatly contradicts the implementation of the market. It is, in the long run, absolutely guaranteed by the mechanics of the game to be the opposite of any noun which exists.|
Originally Posted by Mantic
the inflation caused by the flippers
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Proof: Prices are a comparison of the supply of inf and the supply of things to buy. Flippers do not lower the number of things to buy (and in some cases indirectly raise it), but every market transaction reduces the supply of inf. It is absolutely inevitable that flipping produces, in the long run, lower prices than not-flipping.
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Going off topic here but yes, there's one other very big reason those storage units are "Abandoned". And that's when people are unable to continue paying for the unit. The moment you fall behind on the payments you get locked out so you can't get the good stuff out.
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Originally Posted by Mantic
The folks shown in that program are disgusting parasites who absolutely take advantage of other people's misfortunes or deaths (the valuable items they find in abandoned storage are not abandoned for any other reason).
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Global @StarGeek
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I'd count that as a misfortune.
So it's the STORAGE companies, choosing to auction off the stuff of misfortunate nonpayers who are disgusting parasites.
The nerve, insisting on being compensated for their services and trying to maintain their ability to offer that service by freeing up storage space.
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.
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...oh good grief.|
Originally Posted by seebs
Only that money wouldn't be devalued if you sat on it. It would increase in value at an insane rate.
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In my first post on this topic, I said:
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| The real itchy issue is stinkin' rich folks who don't burn their inf buying the new shiny's: You'd have to devalue inf held on toons as well, at some point. |
In order to revaluate inf, you need to fluidize it first. That's why the lower prices initially in the putative recipe store: So those people sitting on umpty-billions will have an incentive to move their inf, and more importantly, can't buy up the universe with it in a month. And if they don't participate in buyin' shiny's, they will have the purchasing power of their stash adjusted to parity.
Simple. Divide every field in the game where inf is stored by ten. Done.
Make sure you don't miss any though.
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The moment you realize you can't pay, why not get your crap the **** out? How often can it be that you realize you can't pay with just an hour before it is due.|
Originally Posted by StarGeek
Going off topic here but yes, there's one other very big reason those storage units are "Abandoned". And that's when people are unable to continue paying for the unit. The moment you fall behind on the payments you get locked out so you can't get the good stuff out.
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Sorry, but if I have to try hard to work up indignation on behalf of people who can't pay, but don't bother to get their stuff out on time, then it is not true indignation.
They already have, dood.
Compared to inf, all of those things are locked behind 5' thick doors and doled out by guards armed with nuclear RPGs. Inf earning rares are wildly unstructured compared to any merit type. Putting out an inf-based store would likely represent a major boost in supply.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA