Admission of Wealth

That brings me back to my initial post.
The difference lies in the excess, if I am buying something to relist it for a profit. I am denying someone else a fair deal simply to hoard away a fortune far beyond that of my needs then I am denying someone else's need for no reason other than greed.
The market can not determine who's need is greatest but if my need is 0 I can be sure someone out there has greater need than I do.

Simply put, there are a number of things that you are either blatantly ignoring,
or simply do not comprehend.

Yes, the item was already there, for sale ... for a moment. It was purchased.

Somebody got it before you did. They put their bid in earlier than you, or bid
more than you were willing to, but in any case, it was offered and sold.

For all you know, that particular item was actually used in a toon by the purchaser.
Maybe it was re-listed - there's simply no way to know with any specific item.

The key point you're missing is this:

Undervalued, high demand items will sell out quickly, and produce a supply shortage.

Think of iPods/iPads, Beanie Babies, Transformers, Super Bowl tickets or any
number High Demand items that were simply unavailable because the price
was low enough (or the supply was restrictive enough) that more people
bought them faster than other people were able to produce them.

So, in those cases, what usually happens? You get a finite number that sell out
instantly, and you get a few on EBay for crazy prices.

There is a name for this: Volatility... Which, in practical terms, means extreme
price swings, and extreme levels of availability or shortage.

The "service" that flippers provide is to reduce Volatility.

To be sure, he is compensated for his savvy and patience, but those are
actual skills, just as the doctor or the tax guy, or the electrician get compensated
for their specialized knowledge as well.

In actual fact, flippers narrow the extreme price ranges, by bringing the price back
into the "normal" range where producers are supplying the item at roughly the
rate that people are still willing to buy them, without creating a shortage.

What you "lost out" on was a bargain. Getting it "on the cheap".
Next time, bid earlier...

What the flipper did was make sure you could *still* get one, if you really needed
to have it (and by "need", we mean "pony up and pay the normal price these
usually sell at").

It has absolutely nothing to do with morality - believe it or don't.


Regards,
4

Define "fair" in a manner that doesn't take personal greed into it.

Who's to say "fair" isn't the 10 million inf asking price of the flipper?

And how are you to even know that someone has one listed for 1 million inf in the first place? Simply because SOMEONE bought one for a million within the last five doesn't mean it was "stolen" from you.

In short, your example is arbitrary and self-servingly slanted.

Because you are not ENTITLED to that item. Someone who was willing to outbid you, or made a low (but acceptable) bid BEFORE you wanted it more or was there before you evinced interest. What they do with it afterwards is irrelevant and immaterial.

Unlike government taxes, the only one making you pay the "Buy It Nao" tax is YOU. Nobody else.

Technically they're stabilizing supply. That can be construed as a service.

No. Actually, if you're too impatient to wait for low bids to fill, YOU are at fault. Not the devs. Not the sellers. YOU.

The market is just that. A market. Open to all. As long as you get there before everyone else and are willing the pay the price listed, it's yours. If someone beats you to it, tough noogies.

The market is NOT a store. Prices are NOT fixed, no matter HOW you hunger for that.

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The only arbiter of what a "fair" deal is, is when a bidder's price meets or exceeds a seller's asking price. If someone was willing to pay that price, it's fair. Period.

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This is irrelevant. Whether or not I know it is happening on a case by case basis means nothing. Ignorance doesn;t change the morality of the situation.

The key point you're missing is this:
This is called scalping and is illegal.
The very laws designed to force mankind to live ethically are telling you that what you are doing is wrong. Sure you might like to see this as play money and differentiate it from genuine earned cash but I don't see the difference.
Their value to an individual is determined by the amount of effort required to get it, this is as true with real money as it is with influence.
It takes me two minutes real time to earn a dollar.
It takes me an hour real time to earn 10 million influence if it is generated purely through grinding.
Due to the time invested, for me 10 million influence is worth 30x more than a dollar.

This would be true if you had an impact on supply or demand but a flipper doesn't.
They aren't generating any new goods for sale nor are they reducing demand, they are simply moving the goods along the graph beyond the point of equilibrium.
That isn't a service.
And what right do you have to define what the "normal" price is?
I can assure you if people stopped flipping, prices would be noticeably cheaper. They would revert back to their default equilibrium value.
The fact that you are pushing the prices beyond that does not make those prices "normal" actually, by pure definition, it makes those prices abnormal.
This is just something I can't understand. You are taking something available to all and artificially inflating their prices so they are out of reach to those lowest socio-economic classes. How can that be considered anything but immoral?
With respect to the scalping that you brought up, would you think it okay if you desperately wanted to go to the once-affordable Superbowl but the Scalpers bought all the tickets up and pushed them beyond your price range? What of the organizers of the event who quite purposefully set their prices because they wanted to fill the stands? How would they feel about those empty seats Scalpers took from the public?
It might be a good way to make a quick buck but that doesn't change the morality of the situation: that quick buck is coming at the expense of others.
Marketing follows the exact same principle. It might be "play money" but morality doesn't make that distinction.

Actually stock broking is a little more complicated than that.
They are effectively providing a loan to companies most in need and gaining returns based on that service.
Flippers and scalpers aren't providing a service for their mark up, they are merely profiting off the misfortune of others.

Because there's no such thing as a "lowest socio-economic class" in CoH. Nobody has to worry about being able to afford food, rent, clothing or healthcare in order to survive. No one has to find a steady, secure job that pays enough to live on.

If you need inf, go out and kill stuff. That's it. Anyone can do it. Maybe not at the same pace, but anything you're buying on the market isn't stuff you "need" to play, anyway. Taking away someone's ability to insta-buy a luxury item by buying it first isn't immoral.

This is where our opinions differ.
It is my opinion that taking away someone's ability to do ANYTHING for no reason beyond personal greed can only be considered immoral.
Whether I am taking someone's IO or their ability to feed themselves for a week doesn't matter - it is one's intentions not actions nor circumstance that define morality.

So if I'm flipping an item in order to make enough inf to supply the "lowest socio-economic classes" in my SG with IO builds, doesn't my charitable intention trump your selfish one? After all, you're only buying those enhancements for *yourself*... and taking them out of the hands of an entire *group* of people. For shame.

It seems we have both misjudged one another.
For one thing I very rarely buy enchancements for myself, the last dozen or so builds I have IOd have not been mine.
Secondly, what you are describing isn't morally ambiguous in the slightest - it is very noble, charitable and commendable.
I have said all along I have my problem lies with those who do it simply for the sake of swimming in influence. They have more than they need - if you are spending it then awesome. If you are spending it on others, that is even more awesome of you. If you are stockpiling it for no reason beyond making sure others don't have it, that is slightly less awesome but still relatively commendable - I have enough trouble juggling the influence I do have with these caps, adding an excessive amount to that would just make it more problematic.

As an aide, I am also not criticizing those who buy cheap recipes, craft the IO and re-sell it for a mark up. They have earned their cut.

Everybody just stop trying to argue with the Kantian

Have they still earned it even if it's only for the sake of swimming in more influence? Or is there a threshold of effort beyond which a transaction is no longer considered "greedy"?

If there is nothing inherently wrong in arresting people by punching them, hacking them, slicing them, setting them on fire, freezing them, wiping out their minds, shooting and hitting them with guns or machine rifles, or even outright killing them, why is it so frowned upon in the real world?

Additionally: isn't it dishonorable to spend so much time arguing on the boards instead of using that time to help out those in "need" ingame?

Absolutely BS analogy. Any tangible good has a cost of production. From there, you can actually come up with a 'fair price'. Obviously what's 'fair' is subject to opinion, but the starting point (the actual cost) is fixed.

In CoH, the cost to create the items is ZERO. They drop on you out of the void. There is no cost so there is no basis to determine a 'fair' price. The only factors to determine the price are how many there are and how many people want the item - i.e. supply and demand.

Fortunately, there is no need for "protection" from the devs against these dishonorable gouging vermin. You already have the ultimate protection - don't buy it.

A new peak of cluelessness. Learn about the stock market. And ignore Flea's comment about brokers. I buy low and sell high on the market and (aside from the money), it gains me admiration. I have yet to have anyone show scorn or tell me my actions were dishonorable. To be fair, if anyone did, I and everyone nearby would laugh in their face.


BINGO! That's right, it's your OPINION. You don't get to be anyone's arbiter of morality except your own.

THERE IS NO MORALITY!

I will repeat this with bigger letters since you are having trouble seeing what's being told to you.

THERE IS NO MORALITY!

The market is an interactive PVP minigame within the greater venue of CoH.

You are NOT entitled to ANYTHING but ACCESS to it (which'll change under Freedom) and the ability to pay what you want and not an inf more.

THAT'S IT BUBBA!


Scalping, in some cases, is illegal because concert tickets are a limited resource.

Salvage, recipes, crafted enhancements, etc in CoH are, effectively, unlimited.

Scalping is not ENTIRELY illegal. Hawking them on the street at a concert/game is. Because you're running a business without a license.

Take a look at various "premium ticket" services around. That's STILL scalping. But it's legal. And in some cases condoned (or even operated by) the venue.


This is a game. *A* *GAME* Not the real world. In the real world, money and supplies aren't infinite.

So because YOU cannot separate fact from fantasy, WE'RE all jerks?

Uh. No. Go talk to a shrink. The real world (the really real world) doesn't function like that. Nor does the game world.

Your $15 a month entitles you to access the game.
Inf has a net, real-world value of ZERO (0). You know, nada, jack, bupkiss, naught, zip, zilch, one-less-than-uno, NOTHING. This is NOT Adam's second wife. You have not gotten Another Life. In-game currency is worthless.

If YOU choose to attempt to assign a real-world value to it, you're only deluding yourself.


This would be true if you had an impact on supply or demand but a flipper doesn't.
They aren't generating any new goods for sale nor are they reducing demand, they are simply moving the goods along the graph beyond the point of equilibrium.
That isn't a service.

The sellers DON'T. The buyers determine the price.

Maybe. In the short term. Over time, the market would be subject to wild swings in price with almost no stability. Think about how crazy the market was after DXP. Now imagine that on a monthly or bi-monthly basis.

No. It wouldn't. The price floor for all but the most plentiful items would continually creep upwards. The fact that you're naive enough to actually believe this shows your lack of knowledge about the market forces at play here.

Again, there is no "normal". Not in a "market". There are only trends.

That's what we're trying to tell you.

Who said everyone is supposed to have everything, including the nicest, rarest knick-knacks at rock-bottom prices?

The *devs* don't think that way. Hell, for upcoming F2P players, they quite simply CAN'T use them. They can't even get into the market to buy them!

Because nobody promised you an "uber-leet" toon the second you go "I want."

This isn't about NEED. This is about WANT. YOU want nice stuff. But YOU don't want to pay anything for it (though I'm sure you're glad when someone pays a huge "Buy it NAO" markup on the stuff YOU put up).

Again, I don't FORCE people to buy my crap. They're falling all over each other to buy it. Sometimes at 10,000x the price I list at.

Or do you go out of your way to try and find people and say "Nonono! You paid me too much for this! Here's the difference back!"




Again. Different situation than what happens within the game (where supply is unlimited).

Again. Some applications of scalping are legal and condoned.

Does this mean I don't go to some events I'd like to?

Sure!

But *I* am the one who sets the price on what *I* find acceptable.

Ruminate on this at length...

If they got paid for those seats, how they feel is irrelevant. But go ahead and ask a promoter how they'd feel if they sold out of tickets but a portion were scalped and unused?

Guess who's going to tell you "I don't give a ****. I got paid."

I will repeat for your benefit.

THERE IS NO MORALITY ISSUE HERE!

Then you understand nothing of marketing.

That is all.

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Simply because you choose to ignore the value they bring to the market doesn't mean they don't bring anything.

Please stop propagating bad information.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

He wasn't stating an opinion. It's a fact. You, and others, have exactly zero "rights" to cheaply priced luxuries on the market.

They're not taking away ANYTHING. You still have the right to set what price YOU find acceptable. You place the bid and wait for it to fill. Period. If your price is deemed unreasonable on the market, it just never fills. Nobody "took" anything from you.

If they didn't win the bid IT IS NOT *THEIR* IO.

CLUUUUUUUUUUUUUE!

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Put me in the "do and complain about it" category. Sorry if I'd rather make my money by being a superhero in a superhero game, but the market is just so much faster it's very difficult to ignore. But yeah, I signed up to be a superhero not a commodities broker.

Crazy 88s don't swim in influence.

We swim in TEARS.

Having said that, there are two things you're doing wrong:

1) You're the guy on the sidelines yelling at the players. You're not in the game. LaDiva sold me something off-market the other day: it was a fair price. She thought so, I thought so, and you don't get an opinion because it's literally none of your business: the people doing business did not include you.

2) You think there's ONE point of equilibrium, when there are TWO. One is the "buy it nao" price, or close to it; the point where you ratchet your bid up until you buy the lowest item currently for sale. The other is the "Take it away" price: the point where you exactly buy for the highest bid currently out there. Understand this and your stress will disappear.

For items that cost enough to care about, and are in enough supply to move smoothly, the Buy it Nao price is pretty close to the Take It Away price- usually around 20-30% different or 10 million different, whichever is larger. Anything under that isn't worth the market slot or the time to fill it. Anything between those two prices either changes one price, or disappears.

I'm tempted to find the thread where Nethergoat took an item with ZERO supply and ZERO demand and made it a stable niche. He was willing to invest the time and market slots in buying what people otherwise couldn't sell and selling what people couldn't otherwise buy. He made a market, in the financial sense.

That's what marketeers do.

You're welcome.