It's always nice to see people finding a way to enjoy themselves with this game in different ways! I'm impressed by the marketeers and their success! I can't seem to wrap my head around the techniques of playing the market. But that's probably because I like spending money way more than making it! XD
@The Omega Elementress
Currently playing Project Willow lvl 50 DB/WP Incarnate Shifted Scrapper
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For me to see how flipping as dishonorable, I would have to see not flipping as honorable. I do not. The market is a highly abstract tool, and that abstraction is a function of the fact that it's fed by large numbers of players. Forcing value judgements into the frame requires assumptions about which player one is interacting with that I feel usually makes the judgements flawed.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
You can justify it to yourself in any way you like, I don't care but don't pretend it is the honorable thing to do.
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In your example of something that costs 1M, why do you have to buy it from the flipper for +9M? Why can't you buy the next one that sells for 1M? If you have to compete with the flipper for that purchase, is it an amount of dishonor worth mention if they force you to pay 1M+1 inf to outbid them? How do you know you had to pay +9M because a flipper bought the one that was 1M inf? If the flipper (or anyone) is successfully selling them at 10M, how do you know you didn't just get beat to the bargain, 1M purchase by another "honorable" buyer, and then bought a widget for 10M from an "honorable" seller?
There's a show on Spike TV called "Auction Hunters". It's about two guys who go around bidding on stuff in storage units hoping to hit the jackpot being able to resell the stuff that's in the units. That's how I view people who flip. They're trying to make an (in-game) buck because they see something they can buy cheap and sell for more. I certainly don't personally find it very glamorous - I have more fun beating/blowing stuff up. But "dishonorable"? Meh.
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Glad I could inject a ray of sunshine in your otherwise dark and gloomy day.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
This one has to get first reply because it humored me a little.
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You quoted me perfectly, yet you chose not to read the content. Before posting something that makes you look like you lack a basic understanding of the English language, I suggest you look more carefully. The term "unless you actually enjoy it" invalidates everything you have said to the point it is laughable. |
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| I am not telling them how to have fun, |
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| I am acknowledging the possibility that some people might find it fun. |
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| What I am saying is perhaps you should read the posts you quote before you respond to them because it just makes you look silly. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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So, because you simply are unable or unwilling to compete in a market, you fall back on some twisted concept that someone's "honor" is somehow involved in a mercantile transaction.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I am not going to quote any post with this response in particular because they are pretty much all about questioning the relevance of the term "dishonorable" so I'll answer them all in this post.
If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil, awesome. I bid a mil and it is mine. If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil and then someone else buys it immediately re-listing it for 10mil, I have to bid 10 mil if I want it. That is 9 million that is taken from my pocket and placed in yours for what service? You provided nothing of value and took my money. What honor could there possibly be in that? You can justify it to yourself in any way you like, I don't care but don't pretend it is the honorable thing to do. |
If someone bids more than you did and wins an auction, they wanted the item more than you did. Period.
If they decide to relist it at a higher value you are IN NO WAY "forced" to bid more. You can simply wait for the next one.
If someone pays a marked-up price, they wanted it badly enough that they were willing to pay the middle-man's price.
Supply and demand. Not "Supply, demand and honor".
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
The flipper of the 10MM IO is actually the honorable one here. S/he is ensuring that the reward goes to the person who is demonstrating they want it the most, not just the first person who shows up. In the absence of a I-want-it-o-meter, we have to use the signal we have, inf.
Scarcity is real.
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I actually forgot to say this in my original response, because it looked like it was going to turn into one of those epic threads that we've had far too few of lately. Marketeer-focused rage has left my cups o' tears a little dry these past few months, to be honest. |
Originally Posted by Organica
Well, congrats to DevilYouKnow. ^_^ I have a lot of alts too, there are myriad ways to spend all that money.
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DYK, good job.
There is no "honor" or "dishonor" in playing games with fake money in which patience will allow anyone to bid +1 inf over a flipper's lowball offer and get what they want for "cheap +1".
And I don't generally flip, for the record. Much more inf to be made off the folks who are willing to pay exhorbitant mark-ups to buy pre-crafted IOs that I can make 20+mm a pop on.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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BS line of reasoning. They didn't TAKE anything out of your pocket. YOU chose to spend it. If 10 million is too high, don't pay it. The choice is yours. Because you were impatient (in the example), you spent more than needed and then whine about other people being dishonorable. Not seeing much honor, or integrity, in those actions.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil and then someone else buys it immediately re-listing it for 10mil, I have to bid 10 mil if I want it. That is 9 million that is taken from my pocket and placed in yours for what service? You provided nothing of value and took my money. What honor could there possibly be in that?
You can justify it to yourself in any way you like, I don't care but don't pretend it is the honorable thing to do. |
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How long does it take to bid creep from 1 million to ten? Or was ten million your next bid? Hell. If I was a tightwad, I would have started at 500k and waited at least past one weekend. Your impatience is your own doing. Being upset at other people for it is asinine.
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God forbid ice cream go on sale. I guess the other stores will be robbing you then, too? |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
That is 9 million that is taken from my pocket and placed in yours for what service?
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
As I said I have more money than I need, I have also said I know how to play the market well - actually I said I have played the market so well in another mmo the Devs thought it necessary to ban me for it.
So no, I don't need your advice, I don't need your money and I don't need your trolling. |
Also, as a final point of reference, I'm not trolling you. I thought we were having a discussion. I tend to take things kind of lightly, but it sounds like you're more serious about things. In any case, if I decided to troll you, you wouldn't know it until it was too late.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Great.
Now i want Ice Cream. Where is this sale? Guess i will have to go into buy it NAO mode and pay the price that they are "listing" it at.
Currently Playing:
A bunch of toons! (Freedom, Virtue, and a few on Infinity)
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
As I said I have more money than I need, I have also said I know how to play the market well - actually I said I have played the market so well in another mmo the Devs thought it necessary to ban me for it.
So no, I don't need your advice, I don't need your money and I don't need your trolling. |
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That's pretty similar to the view I have. Flippers provide a service to the community by ensuring that a supply of items is regularly available at the market price. I don't consider people who list for 1 inf "dishonorable" although I do wish they would list for more when the item wills ell for more since it benefits everyone in the long term but it's their $15/month.|
Originally Posted by someitguy
The flipper of the 10MM IO is actually the honorable one here. S/he is ensuring that the reward goes to the person who is demonstrating they want it the most, not just the first person who shows up. In the absence of a I-want-it-o-meter, we have to use the signal we have, inf.
Scarcity is real. |
Speaking as a crafter I wish more people were flipping salvage (especially some of the yellow salvage items and the more problematic whites). There is nothing more frustrating for me that logging onto one of my crafters and being unable to do my crafting for the day because a temporary fluctuation in the supply/demand of an otherwise common salvage item has sent prices sky-high. Sure, I can put a bid in and come back later but it's inconvenient.
My experience is that for most salvage items there is a highly variable layer of "dirt-cheap" salvage up but when that goes away there is only small quantities available (probably left over from the last time the price went weird on the item) which means the buy it now price can get ridiculous very quickly.
As always, the internet is for scorn. Still, the first post of this tread was nice.
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It is always refreshing to see someone replace ignorance and superstition with|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
I was wrong and Thank You for all your help.
. <snip> . So thank you for all the guides and help. Fulmens, thanks for matching inf/prestige when I was starting (there was someone who matched Fulmens as well on one of those deals but I can't remember who). You were all right, it's the fastest way. |
a willingness to learn, and the knowledge gained through simple experience.
Congratulations on your progress. It's good to see.
Regards,
4
PS> Of course, you know you now owe us a proper Marketeer screenshot complete
with monocle and tea...
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Mmm. Delicious bait! |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I am not going to quote any post with this response in particular because they are pretty much all about questioning the relevance of the term "dishonorable" so I'll answer them all in this post.
If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil, awesome. I bid a mil and it is mine. If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil and then someone else buys it immediately re-listing it for 10mil, I have to bid 10 mil if I want it. That is 9 million that is taken from my pocket and placed in yours for what service? You provided nothing of value and took my money. What honor could there possibly be in that? You can justify it to yourself in any way you like, I don't care but don't pretend it is the honorable thing to do. |
If all you want is "The level 30 Karma -KB IO that dropped on August 23, at 11:30 AM" then yes, you have to bid 10 million. If you want just ANY level 30 Karma -KB IO, you can bid 1,000,001 and go get a sandwich or log out for the night or something.
As long as you ignore this argument, which has been made at least three times in this thread [once by me], you've got some brass ones when you "suggest [people] look more carefully."
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
The Market is a PvP zone. Congrats DevilYouKnow, you have learned the true nature of the Market, and you have "won". Or at least you claim so, but none of us are in a position to argue since there is no Market leaderboard. Granted it isn't hard to win, so we're not about to doubt you. Nevertheless, your post is appreciated. Some people here go to great lengths to help others learn how to Market PvP well.
Giant2005, your concept of honor doesn't apply to the Market. The Devs have never created any rules or even a Code of Conduct for it. Using your time to troll Marketeers is a significant waste of $15 a month (required for forum access) unless you actually enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, why? Is it just because you enjoy insulting Marketeers and advocating your playstyle as the One True way to play the game?
People who buy Recipes, craft, and sell Enhancements are providing a service, and deserve to be compensated. The same applies to people who just flip things. They provide the one thing many players in this game really want, a store! Anyone can come to the Market and buy a piece of Rare Invention Salvage for 2M Inf, and many people do. If you want to buy an Aegis: End/Res, there's a decent chance that some flipper has one sitting in the Market just waiting for you. If you want to use the Market as a Market, then you can always save some Inf and place a lower bid. But if you go there just to buy stuff like in a store, you are paying a Flipper to provide that service. No thanks are necessary, your Inf is gratitude enough.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
PS> Of course, you know you now owe us a proper Marketeer screenshot complete with monocle and tea... |
I actually did one when I hit 2 billion the first time. That really was the hard one because I didn't know what I was doing and why some things wouldn't sell and so forth.
I finally figured it out when I was trying to teach my buddies and my sister how to market. Trying to explain what I was doing actually helped me understand what I was doing.
I appreciate the congratulations from everyone. I hope that everyone who plays the game, whether they are marketeers or they are full of righteous rage about nefarious market forces, get enjoyment from whatever it is they are doing. That is the point after all.
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The game in question was Lotro.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Sorry, I must have missed the part about your market skill. It wasn't my intent to insult you. However, even being completely oblivious of the game and the details, I don't believe that you were banned from another MMO just for playing it.
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My marketing didn't really have anything to do with my ban, my entire guild controlled the market in this manner but it is no coincidence that those who had lifetime subs were all banned and those who weren't were left alone. I don't blame the marketing for my ban, it was just a weak excuse to prevent those Turbine had no means of profiting from using their resources.
Another thought occured to me. TopDoc is correct when he says it really not hard to make money, it just takes a little patiance and discipline.
Here's the thing; when I am marketing I can do this, bid, wait for it to fill, etc.
But when I am leveling a toon, I try to be patiant and I just can't. I pay buy it NAO prices regularly on anything under 30 million. Oh sure, if I realize ahead of time Imma gonna need something I will bid cheap and wait. But usually I am way too impatiant.
"I need Steadfast Protection Global Defense NAO! I don't care it's only 3% or that I have made 27 levels without it. I got a place to slot it and I want it, NAO!"
Weird.
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The problem with this logic is: That IO or recipe or whatever is for sale was already there.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
If all you want is "The level 30 Karma -KB IO that dropped on August 23, at 11:30 AM" then yes, you have to bid 10 million. If you want just ANY level 30 Karma -KB IO, you can bid 1,000,001 and go get a sandwich or log out for the night or something.
As long as you ignore this argument, which has been made at least three times in this thread [once by me], you've got some brass ones when you "suggest [people] look more carefully." |
If I wanted it, I could bid 1 mil, have it immediately and be a happy camper. In your situation you have removed that opportunity from me due to your own greed. I cannot buy that IO for a fair price immediately, that option is gone.
Why should I have to wait simply because you want me to when the IO was already there for a fair price? Why should I have to pay your Greed tax if the IO was already there for a fair price?
You aren't providing a service, you are taking one away.
For what it is worth, I don't blame the marketeers for this. In real life, producers how found a way to protect their goods from such treatment by a middle man. They write the recommended retail price directly on the packaging - we have no protection from such things in this game and that is the Dev's fault not yours.
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I think (at least part of) your problem is that you feel that the Market is a store. It is not. There is no such thing as you deciding what a "fair" price is for anyone other than yourself.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
For what it is worth, I don't blame the marketeers for this. In real life, producers how found a way to protect their goods from such treatment by a middle man. They write the recommended retail price directly on the packaging - we have no protection from such things in this game and that is the Dev's fault not yours.
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The IO was there for "a fair price" for only as long as the original seller wanted it to be left there.
If people had to wait longer for their stuff to sell and they made less money on it, there would be fewer people putting stuff up for sale in the first place. Which is absolutely true for IOs that don't sell well or very quickly.
As TopDoc said, people are providing the service of being a store when the offer stuff up for sale. And those that offer stuff up for sale at very low prices are more likely interested in their product moving quickly than in your getting a good deal.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
The problem with your argument is that you are placeing a higher moral value on your need over Fulmens. You have not proven (and cannot prove) that this is so. It is not so.
He's need to sell it for a profit is not more or less moral than your need to slot it NAO. Both are are self satisfying needs ancillary to the play of the game. It's something that you do to make the game more fun for you.
What if a dozen people all show up wanting to buy it for a million inf? How does the market determine the one with highest moral need? It can't.
To take in-game, merging the markets means that items from blueside are constantly being boughtt by villians for immoral purposes. Is it moral to even list an item that could be used bya villian to spread evil?
This isn't the real world. Huge amounts of coin in COH is not causing wild and reckless behavior that is resulting in the devaluing of COH's Bond rating nor is it forcing Pargon City residents to make cuts in welfare and Medicare.
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I've missed these threads, too. Personally, I blame the devs for introducing too many other choices for forum rage. Everyone was already fully occupied hating on iTrials and the rate of Incarnate progress, and the devs went ahead and brought in a whole new set of rage options with Premium access levels and Paragon Point costs.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
I actually forgot to say this in my original response, because it looked like it was going to turn into one of those epic threads that we've had far too few of lately. Marketeer-focused rage has left my cups o' tears a little dry these past few months, to be honest.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
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If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil, awesome. I bid a mil and it is mine.
If I want an IO and someone has it listed for 1 mil and then someone else buys it immediately re-listing it for 10mil, I have to bid 10 mil if I want it. That is 9 million that is taken from my pocket and placed in yours for what service? You provided nothing of value and took my money. What honor could there possibly be in that?
You can justify it to yourself in any way you like, I don't care but don't pretend it is the honorable thing to do.