All Trainers will be Tailors
By
Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2011-08-19 02:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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First off...it's silly because these are supposed to be regarded as heroes, not fashion consultants. These are supposed to be the epic characters of the game, and this just makes them lose their punch. Yes, you can just go to Icon, but that does not mean the issue goes away.|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
If this hurts your immersion, can't you just go to Icon and the Facemaker like you do now?
I don't see how me editing my costumes at a trainer will hurt your immersion when you're at a tailor doing the same. |
Thats like saying you're eating "Pancake" but if you eat it in a fancy restoraunt it's lobster.
You editing your costume at the trainer does not ruin my immersion per say, but it does not mean it makes sense that Paragons Epic toons are now sewing up my battle thong.
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They never had any punch. Notice how they remain completely punchless whenever Rikti and Zombies attack.
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Originally Posted by Nyx
First off...it's silly because these are supposed to be regarded as heroes, not fashion consultants. These are supposed to be the epic characters of the game, and this just makes them lose their punch. Yes, you can just go to Icon, but that does not mean the issue goes away.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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You know what I mean!
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
They never had any punch. Notice how they remain completely punchless whenever Rikti and Zombies attack.
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I haven't been handed cash, check or gift card. I've been handed one extra click every time I want to train.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
If the devs handed you two hundred dollars on a silver platter, you would complain that it wasn't a check.
If they handed you a check, you'd complain that it wasn't a gift card. This is a great change. |
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Yeah, it could have been worse, I guess - they could have given the trainers the super-tailor function and removed icobs from the game. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Check back this time next year. I'd bet they aren't. Maybe less crowded when new-shiny pieces come out, yes, but that's hardly what I'd call a *bad* thing.
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I still thi k its a shame but its in, I'm getying over it.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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What "extra" click? You still click the same number of times to train. It's not like it brings up a "Do you want to change your costume yes/no" window before giving you the training option. It's the same window the trainers always had with an added option you can choose to click or ignore at your leisure. There is no -extra- clicking involved.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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It's not the same window. Before, you had the option to "Train now" as soon as the window opened. Now you need to first click on the "Improve my abilities" button to be taken to the old Trainer window for builds, training and titles. And, yes, it bothers me, as well.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
What "extra" click? You still click the same number of times to train. It's not like it brings up a "Do you want to change your costume yes/no" window before giving you the training option. It's the same window the trainers always had with an added option you can choose to click or ignore at your leisure. There is no -extra- clicking involved.
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I get having a tailor in the initial zone. I get having a tailor in EVERY zone. I don't see a need to have trainers be tailors, however, any more so than I see a justification why there has to be a Merit Vendor per 10 square yards of land area.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This is not the experience as I recollect it. However, I've been doing a lot of sewer trials and using the trainers therein recently, so my memory may be tainted. But as I recalled from when I used Ms. Liberty (and Blue Steel) while I was running the early arcs, there was a 'train up to next level' option on the initial window as well as the 'change your costume' option. As luck would have it, the moment I went in to test it out just now they shut down the servers. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's not the same window. Before, you had the option to "Train now" as soon as the window opened. Now you need to first click on the "Improve my abilities" button to be taken to the old Trainer window for builds, training and titles. And, yes, it bothers me, as well.
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Of course, I feel I should be able to click the flashing level up arrow to level up without having to go through the extraneous motion of sauntering over to the nearest inconvenient trainer. So a single extra click, if it exists, is liable to go by unnoticed by me next to the other more obtrusive processes, anyway.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Agreed. Having a tailor in every zone for QOL is nice; adding the function to the trainers is kind of lazy and half-*****. If a tailor is needed in every zone, then add an Icon/Facemaker in every zone. Heck, just give us /tailor. It makes more sense for my characters to make their own costumes, then it does for them to go to the top tier heroes in the city and have them sew for me.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I get having a tailor in the initial zone. I get having a tailor in EVERY zone. I don't see a need to have trainers be tailors, however, any more so than I see a justification why there has to be a Merit Vendor per 10 square yards of land area.
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Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
That may have changed since last I tried it, to be honest. It actually took me a while to realise how to even get my next level, since all the familiar buttons I was expecting to see didn't exist. Turns out they were all on another menu that I had to select first.
Honestly, though, convenience isn't my biggest gripe here, but more so immersion. As I said before, the storyline gives us a reason for why Icon and Facemaker offer to change our costumes and our physique - because they own manufacturing facilities for advanced fabrics, run cosmetic surgery clinics and employ actual fashion designers. Just like it makes sense for Vault Reserve to house my stuff, so it makes sense for Icon and the Facemaker to change my appearance.
This doesn't quite apply to Miss Liberty or Blue Steel or Valkyrie or Arbiter Diaz. Their "thing" is that they're highly-trained veterans that know the ins and outs of most types of super powers out there, and they can advise us on how we may want to train and what to focus on. Granted, it's kind of a weak excuse for NEEDING trainers in the first place (a practice I disagree with as you do), but at least it makes sense. But when they start sewing clothes and rearranging faces... I just stand back and ask the flat what.
I get the convenience, but I'd have preferred said convenience to be accomplished by adding tailors to more zones, not by remaking existing contacts to also be tailors. Then again, we got Null the Gull, so...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If you hate immersion breaking then you must hate the options menu, loading screens, unexplained limits on inventory size, arbitrary amounts of XP needed to level up, the tram system, and just about any other thing in this game that is about 20 times more immersion breaking than 1 line of dialogue in a tree from a trainer that you can ignore easily.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Straw that breaks the camel's back and all that...
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
If you hate immersion breaking then you must hate the options menu, loading screens, unexplained limits on inventory size, arbitrary amounts of XP needed to level up, the tram system, and just about any other thing in this game that is about 20 times more immersion breaking than 1 line of dialogue in a tree from a trainer that you can ignore easily.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Nothing has ever been immersive about the trainers. My biggest issue with them is that if you think of them as having an actual role in the world (instead of existing for purely game purposes) then you're railroaded into accepting that no hero (or villain) is capable of improving their powers without the tutelage of another hero (or villain). If you can ignore that, then you can ignore them having a tailor option, because you aren't forced to use the tailor option like you are forced to go to a trainer to train.
We should just get /train and /tailor (perhaps limited to non-instances). Keep Icon/Facemaker for day jobs and Super Tailors. Trainers can still have informational dialog and the stuff for titles and build-swapping, although I'd rather have them patrolling their zones with some Longbow. An information terminal can stand in their place.
I don't know if any of that is likely to happen since I don't know how hard it is to add commands to the game (even if the command just does what a dialog option currently does). Maybe there are even non-technical reasons not to change that. I dunno. It's just what I think they should do.
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First of all, no mission ever required me to open my Options menu to accomplish an objective, though the Tutorial asking me to buy stuff from the Paragon Market is dangerously close to that in a move I HATE HATE HATE. Seriously, pimping your real money store in the middle of what is supposed to be a fight of life and death has got to be one of the worst, most obtrusive things I have ever seen - and I've played a ton of F2P MMOs. Never seen that before. People are dying, buildings are falling, monsters are invading, but there's no more kayfabe, brother. All that stuff's fake, you know it's fake, I know it's fake. What matters is I want your money, and you should know how to give it to me. I honestly can't think of a worse, more tasteless way to promote RMT, and that's including Chinese gold farmer RMT spam.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
If you hate immersion breaking then you must hate the options menu, loading screens, unexplained limits on inventory size, arbitrary amounts of XP needed to level up, the tram system, and just about any other thing in this game that is about 20 times more immersion breaking than 1 line of dialogue in a tree from a trainer that you can ignore easily.
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Secondly... Yeah, I do hate the trams. In WoW or Lineage, yeah, I get that we'd need transportation to cover large distance. But in City of Heroes? We can frikkin' fly! In fact, the first issue of the original City of Heroes comic book paints a pretty good picture of exactly how absurd it is to have costumed super heroes riding the subway. I'm not quite sure what the solution to this could have been, but riding the trains bugs the hell out of me. Riding the ferry is a bit easier to swallow since crossing miles of open water with any other power than sustained flight may be problematic. But frikkin' public transport? This is one step removed from that old Daffy Duck cartoon where he's chasing a villain, hails a cab, yells "Follow that car!" and the cab takes off immediately, leaving him holding the passenger side door. Ugh...
Finally, just because there are other immersion-breaking aspects to the game doesn't mean we should be OK with adding even more. Just because I tolerate those hideous, out-of-place, no-backstory Merit vendors doesn't mean I've somehow accepted the concept and even enjoy it. No, I've merely complained all I had to complain about them and these days simply don't bring them up. But if someone were to suggest putting a Merit Vendor on top of the Atlas statue globe, I certainly wouldn't say "Well, they break my immersion now, what's another one in a place where he shouldn't be?" That's not a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The thing that gets me about that is that it's there and a number of actual, you know, how-to-play-the-game skills aren't even touched in the new tutorial. Gauging an enemy's ability to scrape you off its shoe by the color of its name? I didn't see that mentioned anyplace. What Inspirations are for? Enhancements and what to do with them? Doesn't come up. Instead, you get a super-bare-bones movement primer, a weirdly abrupt and unheralded Moral Choice, an utterly random Giant Monster that doesn't work like any other GM I've ever seen in the game, and... a very carefully structured pointer to where you can give the company real money. It just fails on so many levels. It's like they forgot it's intended for people who don't already know how the game works.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What matters is I want your money, and you should know how to give it to me.
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The "public trains being used by heroes" situation is silly. Something better would be Hero Corps helicopters, as an analog to the Arachnos Black Helicopters. An additional advantage of helicopter lines for Paragon would be the ability to go to Peregrine from any city zone (and vice-versa) without first having to go through Talos, the RWZ, or Ouroboros. You can either handwave paying Hero Corps (after all, we don't pay Field Analysts for their services - anymore) or acknowledge somewhere that they have a contract with the city to provide hero transportation. The only reason I didn't say "Longbow" is that I like blue more than red, but either group would be fine, and Hero Corps is the one that's a business; Longbow should be out fighting, not flying. Adding or moving helicopters should also be much easier than making sure a rail line is running somewhere, because that rail has to snake through a whole zone. I won't pretend to know the odds of this ever happening, though.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[...] Yeah, I do hate the trams. [...] I'm not quite sure what the solution to this could have been, but riding the trains bugs the hell out of me. [...]
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[...] Finally, just because there are other immersion-breaking aspects to the game doesn't mean we should be OK with adding even more. [...]
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One very simple reason I dont like trainers being tailors is that there is way too many buildings u cant go in. The one of few u can, now u dont have too. Before anyone mentions about the cape and aura missions we can just voucher those now. I just like having more places to go, different reasons to go there and inside of buildings inside of zones is a different place. This is just a bad way to start.
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FWIW, the cape and aura missions have nothing to do with Icon or Facemaker and those mission arcs never send you to an Icon or Facemaker store.|
Originally Posted by Jot
One very simple reason I dont like trainers being tailors is that there is way too many buildings u cant go in. The one of few u can, now u dont have too. Before anyone mentions about the cape and aura missions we can just voucher those now. [...]
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(Hero: "Earn a cape" / Villain: "Steal a cape")
Icon and Facemaker are still needed for the tailor day job, costume slot missions, and the Super Tailor. Yes, you can buy costume slots, but you can only buy 5 out of 10 slots. If you want them all (or don't want to pay real money for slots) then you need to do missions for the tailors.
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Originally Posted by Big_Game_EU
I also disagree with Trainers being Tailors. It may be convenient, but it discourages zone exploration. A far more useful, and theme fitting change, would be to able to respec at ANY trainer.
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I'll probably hate myself for saying this... But I think teleporters would have been a better solution. See, when Star Trek originally chose to save money by having people teleport down to planets instead of using the more expensive shuttle variant, they hit on an amazing idea - teleportation is both cool AND cheap. Of course, it's a bit tempting to make teleportation TOO cheap (Lineage II, I'm looking at you!) as one can easily see in the Vanguard base where their teleporters are just little doodads on the wall that you click. But at the same time, the potential for coolness and exclusivity is just too good to pass up.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
The "public trains being used by heroes" situation is silly. Something better would be Hero Corps helicopters, as an analog to the Arachnos Black Helicopters. An additional advantage of helicopter lines for Paragon would be the ability to go to Peregrine from any city zone (and vice-versa) without first having to go through Talos, the RWZ, or Ouroboros. You can either handwave paying Hero Corps (after all, we don't pay Field Analysts for their services - anymore) or acknowledge somewhere that they have a contract with the city to provide hero transportation. The only reason I didn't say "Longbow" is that I like blue more than red, but either group would be fine, and Hero Corps is the one that's a business; Longbow should be out fighting, not flying. Adding or moving helicopters should also be much easier than making sure a rail line is running somewhere, because that rail has to snake through a whole zone. I won't pretend to know the odds of this ever happening, though.
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Here's the thing - what bugs me about riding the trains isn't so much riding the trains in itself. Trains are cool. It's the fact that the best mode of transport I have access to is the same as every granny going shopping. Also, there's the "elevator" problem. Here you are, 10-foot-tall flaming spiked demon, riding for half an hour with an elderly couple trying to tell you their life story and that baby who just won't stop crying but you can't set on fire because you're a hero. It's less "batmobile" and more "family sedan on the road trip, with dad threatening to turn the car around every few miles." It's undignified.
Teleporters are different, though, and not for that much effort, really. I mean, the Portal Corp stargates are AMAZING, but you don't need quite this much fanfare. Something as simple as the Unreal 3 Generator Cores would have sufficed, just a large-ish building where the train stations used to be that you walk inside and click on a floating ball of energy. It gives me the sense that this is exclusive and reserved for important people (VIPs, if you will) and it also gives me the feeling that it's a cool way to travel. Best of all, it gives me the feeling that it's a BETTER way to travel than I could achieve by just turning on my own personal jetpack.
So, yes, teleportation is better than public transport. Yes, I went there!
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
But trainers aren't really immersive in the first place. What's the problem with the addition of a non-immersive feature when it's located amongst other non-immersive features?
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That's kind of how I see trainers. OK, I get that this is an intentional time sink we inherited from every MMO ever made. I can live with it. But at least try to hide it a little better. Don't just go out and announce it's just a time sink and meta-game and attach even more nonsense to it. This is one step removed from being able to teleport between contacts and oh wait... Never mind...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And there you go. Basically no point in arguing any more.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is one step removed from being able to teleport between contacts and oh wait... Never mind...
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Before every gets there hopes up, you can only teleport to contacts you've never met. Contacts that get introduced to you via pop up ( Montague Castanella, Darrin Wade) you can never teleport to since the game automagically introduces you.
One super awesome thing about the teleport to contact feature, it appears redside you get introduced to contacts that normally require some ridiculous unlock such as Veluta Lunata being locked behind the Pirate Accolade.
Now I know I'm thinking about this too much...
Wonder Woman- trained by others and given a outfit based on the US flag as a sign of goodwill
Superman- taught life lessons by his parents and Ma Kent made his costume.
Robin- trained by Batman, costume given to him by Batman.
Green Lantern Corps- trained by the guardians, given a ring that comes w/ a mandatory outfit, mask is optional.
So I'm not really grasping the immersion breaking factor.
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QFT.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
If you hate immersion breaking then you must hate the options menu, loading screens, unexplained limits on inventory size, arbitrary amounts of XP needed to level up, the tram system, and just about any other thing in this game that is about 20 times more immersion breaking than 1 line of dialogue in a tree from a trainer that you can ignore easily.
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I seldom change costumes at all, but I know there's plenty of players for whom that's their favorite part of the game. For them, there's an extra line of print buried in the trainer's dialog tree that gives them access to their favorite part of the game. Good for them!
For me, there's an extra line of print buried in the trainer's dialog tree that does nothing to impact my experience of the game. I don't read any of the trainer dialogue any more and this change does nothing to harm my game.
So I'm wholeheartedly in favor of this change. It makes the game much better for some players and does no harm elsewise.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
If this hurts your immersion, can't you just go to Icon and the Facemaker like you do now? I don't see how me editing my costumes at a trainer will hurt your immersion when you're at a tailor doing the same.
Like I'd see where you're coming from if the devs did something ridiculous like say that Doctor Brainstorm destroyed all tailors but then suddenly all trainers got appearance-modifying powers, but as it is, your tailors are still there for you to use, so you can still use them?
I just fail to see the problem here.