City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

All Trainers will be Tailors

Acroyear2

By Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2011-08-19 02:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
How many times do the X-Men stop in between fights to visit the local H&M to re-buy their costumes?
Don't be ridiculous. Ever since the Jim Lee era, the X-Men's costumes have clearly come from Mister S Leather.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
Conversely, they could turn on sprint, travel 600 yards, and mess with their costumes in Icon, like they're supposed to. I have to Seek Alternate Route because they're using the trainer for something other than training? IDFTS, sunshine.
In other news: the sky is falling because of issue 21. No really, it is. All over Galaxy.

Unless you are the VERY VERY VERY VERY tiny minority of players who have to train up at Liberty each level for roleplay reasons (and in the 7 years I've played this game, I've only known one person who did this), how does this affect you? Getting from level 1 to 5 and getting to King's Row has never been faster. And everyone assuming that every new player will just sit around at the costume creator the second they leave the costume creator has to be some of the laziest and thinly veiled attacks on the mental capacity of new players yet.

We already have situations every day when Miss Liberty is swamped with people and heroes who have to train can *gasp* still train! The level 1-5 game goes by so fast, especially for new players, that they probably won't even notice the one tiny line of dialogue that seems to be the great immersion breaker 2011. And veteran players can now chill out at Mirror Spirit or War Witch and update their costume on the fly without having to break THEIR immersion and stop fighting crime so they can run to Steel Canyon or Independence Port.

Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
Don't be ridiculous. Ever since the Jim Lee era, the X-Men's costumes have clearly come from Mister S Leather.
Except for Emma. She still gets hers from Trashy Lingerie.

Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast

 

Posted

I don't see the point of trainers being able to change costume. ICON was added to Atlas so easy accessible.

But whatever, some will always just want the easiest possible method to do everything. Frankly I would like to see more interaction with buildings and locations.

 

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
To what?
They haven't said yet - but it's based on datamaing from the Praetorian invasion event back in May.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
In other news: the sky is falling because of issue 21. (...) The level 1-5 game goes by so fast, especially for new players, that they probably won't even notice the one tiny line of dialogue that seems to be the great immersion breaker 2011. And veteran players can now chill out at Mirror Spirit or War Witch and update their costume on the fly without having to break THEIR immersion and stop fighting crime so they can run to Steel Canyon or Independence Port.
Rave on, dude. I didn't say I thought it was the end of the world and I don't recall even mentioning immersion. My standpoint is that it's frickin' annoying, full stop, and unnecessary.

Also:

Quote:
And everyone assuming that every new player will just sit around at the costume creator the second they leave the costume creator has to be some of the laziest and thinly veiled attacks on the mental capacity of new players yet.
I might've thought so too, if I hadn't seen it happen. In a beta full of veterans, no less. One can only imagine how numb the noobs are going to be with performances like that out of people who ought to know better.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
Conversely, they could turn on sprint, travel 600 yards, and mess with their costumes in Icon, like they're supposed to. I have to Seek Alternate Route because they're using the trainer for something other than training? IDFTS, sunshine.
What about other places besides AP?

 

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Originally Posted by That_Ninja View Post
What about other places besides AP?
Like I said before: If every-zone costume modification coverage is suddenly so mission-critical, the designers can follow the AE precedent - or even the Merit Vendor precedent, they don't have to be full-on storefronts - and proliferate tailors. Makes easily as much sense as extending that capability to the trainers (cripes, they might as well just activate it on every civilian whose name starts with T), and doesn't get in my damn way.

 

Posted

I think its pretty lame and not needed. If they put an Icon in Atlas then new players can go there. If they cant wait to walk 1/5 across a zone then may as well do /tailor. Makes no sense to even have Icons with this. I feel there suppose to be reasons to go around to different parts of zones or different zones, but I guess all u need is Miss Liberty and the AE building.

 

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
I might've thought so too, if I hadn't seen it happen. In a beta full of veterans, no less. One can only imagine how numb the noobs are going to be with performances like that out of people who ought to know better.
Consider:
1. The beta had everyones character wiped. So yeah. Pile of noob-level characters.
2. There's only one beta server, versus all the live servers.
3. The cap for spawning a new zone instance has been lowered.

Don't think it'll be an issue on live.

 

Posted

I find it interesting. I rarely use Ms. Liberty to level up in the Beta. Mostly because of the crowding. I use BaBs instead. I actually do use the Atlas Icon, but that's because I want a super tailor, and don't feel like making the trip to SC/IP/FF/Pocket D or RWZ to get it.

Yeah, BaB's in the Police Station is still a trainer. Ms. Liberty no longer stands alone.

 

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Originally Posted by Jot View Post
I think its pretty lame and not needed. If they put an Icon in Atlas then new players can go there. If they cant wait to walk 1/5 across a zone then may as well do /tailor. Makes no sense to even have Icons with this. I feel there suppose to be reasons to go around to different parts of zones or different zones, but I guess all u need is Miss Liberty and the AE building.

Well said.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Remote access to the costume editor as some kind of earnable reward is one thing - it doesn't attempt to explain its own existence in-universe. It's like the remote Market (I refuse to call it an "auction house) Access power - it's there to break the game, and we all know it.

This is different. This is part of the contact's dialogue and it's attempting to explain this to me in-character and in-story. And it's failing.
Oh, I agree. And, it is funny... it is highly atypical for me to be on a side of debate against people citing the importance of immersion. Believe me... anyone who knows me and how I play the game would find it funny, hehe.
I'm quite an immersion freak... Although, I also recognize that there is an awful lot that I ignore (in-game text/dialog with trainers, contacts, enhancements and so on). I don't even consciously think about it (usually). I just have a very comfortable relationship with feeling out what game elements fit into my pretendy time and which ones don't.

I certainly don't say that as though I'm any better or worse than anyone else or anything!! Just sharing the possible whys as to my feelings on this issue.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I ask you again - what, precisely, can Miss Liberty do that will change my gender from a woman to a man? Both the Facemaker and Icon boast cosmetic surgery, but Miss Liberty does not.
Hehe, disregarding that the trainers apparently aren't super tailors (yet... who knows if they may become as such)...
Ms. Liberty does have that sword.......


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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
That's cool. A floaty thing like the invention table is fine by me. I just don't like trainers as tailors.

I mean, I *know* why they're doing it: to get impulse-buy money from F2P players. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
Agreed and I understand.
Also, yeah, I don't like the reason why it is being done this way either. Heh... Yeah, in fact, those reasons make me want to change my tune and fight it myself... Good job!

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
And if this change *does* keep people from training up, doesn't that run the risk of turning people off of the game? A non-player is a non-payer.
Well, I certainly hope that doesn't happen and I don't think we have any reason ti believe that it would.
Honestly... Let's just say that things are ridiculously crowded... Hehe, one of the common complaints from new players is that the place seems dead! Maybe this would change that, eh?


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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
What's wrong with you? This is the internet!
Yeah, I need to see someone about that!


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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Consider:
1. The beta had everyones character wiped. So yeah. Pile of noob-level characters.
2. There's only one beta server, versus all the live servers.
3. The cap for spawning a new zone instance has been lowered.

Don't think it'll be an issue on live.
And, of course, Atlas Park in Beta is the new big shiny (new zone) that everyone wants to check out and hang in right now.
The same will be true on live, of course, but that shine will wear off some over time.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post



I might've thought so too, if I hadn't seen it happen. In a beta full of veterans, no less. One can only imagine how numb the noobs are going to be with performances like that out of people who ought to know better.
Yes, a beta full of veterans who have played this game for multiple years (if not 7+), in a beta situation where it's new and shiny.

A new player, though? Will he or she really care that they can turn their brown eyes blue after just choosing brown eyes in the costume creator, for lack of a better 90s alternative rock song reference? No, they will be too busy cleaning the streets of thugs or helping Twinshot and the Stars or just learning the ins and outs of a game we all learned years ago. I can only imagine that, like most people playing the game the first time, the leveling and new powers will be the things they worry about, not that they picked the wrong pants pattern or robotic arm style. It's easy to forget that we didn't even have Icon or costume changes when this game was released, and yet all of us in our, in your words, "noobish" ways managed to make it past Liberty and into Paragon City just fine.

One dialogue tree branch will not ruin that anymore than costume contests or AP having a Wentworth's or City Hall being the entrance to Recluse's Victory or AP having one of the most convenient paths to RWZ has. Surprisingly, Atlas Park has survived and the costume contests remain to this day. While the sky is literally falling in issue 21, anything short of Shivans is not the end of the world like some have proclaimed it to be in this thread.

Immersion is relative. And apparently also fleeting for some where even the tiniest change to the UI (the most immersion breaking of all game development tools) of all things can break it.

Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast

 

Posted

How to avoid the "immersion breaking" of this change:

We still buy our costumes with influence. We lose influence because we have a new costume and the idea is the general populace might have a harder time recognizing us.

When do most superheroes bust out the new costume in comics, movies, and TV shows? In crossovers or when they are around other heroes. We spend a little of our own personal influence with Miss Liberty or Blue Steel or, if someone is truly desperate I guess, Ravenstorm and the general public just might see us on the same level as the person who's helping us debut our new look. (Except for Ravenstorm. New players getting gutpunched by Shivans have more influence over the general public of Paragon than Ravenstorm does)

We still have to forfeit a bit of influence because not everyone will get to see us /cc'ing next to a member of the Vindicators (or Ravenstorm), but it could be seen as a way these tried and tested heroes who have defended the city for years have taken a second out of their day to help you look the heroic (or villainous if you go redside) part.

Loyalist Praetorians? All trainers have instant technology linked with Cole to transmit and transport military-grade armor and weapons. Resistance? Trainers can help you piecemeal together technology you steal from the Loyalist to make yourself look more threatening to Cole and his minions.

I don't even care about immersion and I just solved the whole issue with it in 3 minutes of stream of consciousness.

Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast

 

Posted

Back in my day, we didn't have convenience... you ran through the Hollows for 6 hours begging anyone who would listen to TP you the hell out of a gulch, not that it mattered since your debt was capped.

You damn kids today with your "convenience" and ease of access...

In my day you got 1 of 3 hair dues, the same shirt and pants, a standardized mask...And you liked it! They had 4 colors to choose from and you were grateful!

You're all running around today pretending to be heroes after spending 45 minutes to hit level 50 in AE and you look like some zombie ****** hybrid.

BAH! .... take your convenience, I'll keep working for my check.

Best Regards,

OMEGA-001

 

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My 2ยข's worth:

I agree that trainers shouldn't be the costume people. It just plain doesn't make sense. It's not because of "immersion" issues, it's not because it will be too crowded at Ms. Liberty (hell, I suspect most people will be using the trainers liberally spread throughout the sewer trial, not Ms. Liberty). It just seems like a non sequitur. Why trainers?

Personally, I don't see any issue with a /tailor command and be done with it. Need a rationale for getting new costumes without going to the store? You mail ordered it. Or made it yourself. Whatever.

Barring that, how about having the option in the store interface? Anywhere you can buy enhancements, you can change your costume, including the Freedom Corps reps spread about in low level zones, the brick-and-mortar stores spread throughout the higher-level zones, and the contacts in the really high-level zones.

But make no mistake about it: I really don't care much one way or another. Whether they don't change anything at all, proceed with what's in the I21 beta, or do something I've suggested here or something completely different, the difference in happiness I'll have is extremely minuscule.

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)

 

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Hey Devs, put the shop in the BASES!!!! Remember those giant expensive things that no longer have any purpose?? Let Bases be used for SOMETHING ...ANYTHING...PLEASE!!

Best Regards,

OMEGA-001

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Miss Liberty being able to make me taller is one step BELOW the five SO contacts who used to stand in a line in Fort Darwin back in CoV Beta. [...]

It may be convenient, but convenience is not the holy grail of game design, and sometimes convenience can be very bad design. I feel this is one of those cases.
One nitpick: Ms. Liberty can't make you taller (not a Super Tailor), but she CAN give you a new hat. Not sure I like it either way though, either.

I think I have to agree with that last part, Sam.


 

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
We did. It's immersion-breaking. Can't say it simpler that. If you don't like it, fine, but that doesn't make it invalid.
immersion breking in a game where tailors can instintaneously change your body shape, musculature, graft robotic arms or organic arms, tails or wings onto your body and even change your gender? and this requires no recovery time, risk of rejection, physical disorientation or actual visable medical supplies?

and that trainer, is that the one that despite having a defined powerset can train crowds of multiple superheroes at once in any of the hundreds of the disparate powersets in the game including villian patron powers that directly draw power from elements so far never mentioned as existing in the paragon city. this is the part that makes you say nuh-uh? libs cant have a pda with an up to date inventory of icon and a quick delivery service ? but she can use her martial arts skills to train you psychic domination before you run off to get a gender reassignment that doesn't even make you late for a timed hostage rescue? that was the bridge too far? id boggle, but i can boggle no more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post

I mean, I *know* why they're doing it: to get impulse-buy money from F2P players. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
no, you really dont, you can make a shot in the dark guess, obnoxiously cynical though it may be, but outside of the developers, none of us can say with any certainty why a decision was made. it is just as likely that one of the first individuals you are directed to was chosen as a showcase of one of the game's strongest differentiating factors from other games and they decided it would be easier to get people hooked on the tailor, as many of us have for years without a direct financial incentive, if you were introduced to the ability to change costumes right out of the gate somewhere you would be going several times anyhow. bottom line we are both guessing, none of us KNOWS anything, and pretending you have figured out some great conspiracy to make things more convenient because they are only focusing on the money is silly.

 

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Originally Posted by BashfulBanshee View Post
Atlas won't be a dead zone. Lots od People will continue to run their Tips there. I know I will.
I didnt mean AP would be a dead Zone. I meant that the icon stores will be dead zones.

Eco

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

 

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why exactly. you can go to the vanguard icon person now from atlas right out of the gate, and they, unlike trainers, is even a super tailor . did that kill icons? Icons still have the advantages of having a super tailor and having the missions we need to unlock new costumes. so suggesting they will die just because you can got to a trainer as an additional but more limited option seems unjustified.

 

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I don't particularly mind the change. To me, it's no worse than the trainers being trainers. IMO, you should be able to level yourself up without a trainer, and be able to modify your costume from your costume selection bar.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
I didnt mean AP would be a dead Zone. I meant that the icon stores will be dead zones.

Eco
Check back this time next year. I'd bet they aren't. Maybe less crowded when new-shiny pieces come out, yes, but that's hardly what I'd call a *bad* thing.