Spoilers for the Underground Trial


2short2care

 

Posted

Soooo....errrr.....ahhh....ummmm....


The Well is tied to Earth, and has taken a vested interest in Earth. The Well wants Earth to survive. Therefore, it's created a gauntlet of Cole, Hamidon, and Primal Earth's threats to create kind of a Doomsday scenario: forcing a crucible gauntlet on the two Earths to produce a group of super-powered beings capable of withstanding the Battalion.

Is that what we're being told?


There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
So the Well's trying to play both ends against each other, then throwing Primal Earth into the mix, even as The Coming Storm approaches and the Battalion threatens to, I don't know, turn it into a jacuzzi? For a deus ex machina, the Well doesn't work particularly effectively or efficiently. Doesn't this strike anyone as an overcomplicated narrative, dramatically?

Moreover, since players are unable to affect the developments of these clumsily overlapping plots anyway, why would making them harder to justify be more interesting to observe from the sidelines?
I think, and mind you, think is the operative word here, but I think that it's basically a situation where the well is...intelligent, but not really sentient. It has a goal, and it is able to take complex steps to reach that goal, but it can't really think critically about those steps, evaluate, or really learn from its mistakes. It's probably better to think of the Well less as a character and more as a force of nature.

In short, I don't think the Well's actions are really supposed to be very sensible, which is probably why Prometheus wants things done his way.

Of course, again, this is really just what sense I can make out of what is indeed not the most sensible of storylines.


 

Posted

Listen, strange ponds distributin' super powers is no basis for a system of government!

Or for tha' matter, a system for determinin' the fate a two universes!

Supreme executive power over th' fate of th' multiverse derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
I think, and mind you, think is the operative word here, but I think that it's basically a situation where the well is...intelligent, but not really sentient.
It's certainly sentient enough to carry on a perfectly sensible, if portentous conversation with players during the Mender Ramiel arc by using Statesman and Lord Recluse as ventriloquist's dummies (another tooth-grindingly awful revelatory moment in recent plot developments). That ability to communicate puts it parsecs ahead of, say, VALIS or Solaris, either of which would be a better model for the Well than a cosmic Edgar Bergen.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightErrant View Post
Listen, strange ponds distributin' super powers is no basis for a system of government!

Or for tha' matter, a system for determinin' the fate a two universes!

Supreme executive power over th' fate of th' multiverse derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!
PFFT! Supreme executive power derives from THREE GIGANTIC REACTORS FILLED WITH COSMIC POWER!


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

Posted

Prometheus says the well is being "directed" - but so far, he's not told us anything more than that.

I love the way that completing each Trial gets Prometheus to give us more info - and it also ties into one of my favorite things about the Incanrate system and storyline in general - the way it's broken the security of the 1-50 game.

Before Incarnates, there was a 1-50 story framework for the whole game - even if there wasn't that much endgame content, there was actually an "end" to the game - once you'd hit 50 and run all the arcs and TFs, you'd experienced the full story, from the streets of Outbreak to the portals on Peregrine Island, and while there might be new TFs for 50s from time to time, or new lower level content you could exemplar for, the basic 1-50 story framework remained the same.
But now the Incarnate system and storyline has broken that up - it's gone beyond the 1-50 framework, so we don't have that to put it in context - we can't say "this or that won't or will happen because this or that is the game situation at 50, so it has to sync up with that" - by going beyond 50, the devs aren't required to tie up lose ends and plot threads to make sure they flow into the higher level content, because this is the higher level content - lose ends and plot threads just progress into new stories.
For example, they've just killed off the Praetorian Vanessa DeVore, and Desdemona has taken her mask - but we have no idea where that will lead us, because there's no higher level content to put it in context for us - because it goes beyond the 1-50 framework, there's no limit to where the story can take us - it's like a constant rolling expansion of the game world and lore.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
So the Well's trying to play both ends against each other, then throwing Primal Earth into the mix, even as The Coming Storm approaches and the Battalion threatens to, I don't know, turn it into a jacuzzi? For a deus ex machina, the Well doesn't work particularly effectively or efficiently. Doesn't this strike anyone as an overcomplicated narrative, dramatically?
That's what happens when you keep pulling plot elements out of your behind.

Quote:
Moreover, since players are unable to affect the developments of these clumsily overlapping plots anyway, why would making them harder to justify be more interesting to observe from the sidelines?
Oh, but we can affect them. I'm sure 48 of Primal Earth's greatest heroes will eventually be able to resolve this mess, in a power-delay filled slideshow of epic proportions.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
Soooo....errrr.....ahhh....ummmm....


The Well is tied to Earth, and has taken a vested interest in Earth. The Well wants Earth to survive. Therefore, it's created a gauntlet of Cole, Hamidon, and Primal Earth's threats to create kind of a Doomsday scenario: forcing a crucible gauntlet on the two Earths to produce a group of super-powered beings capable of withstanding the Battalion.

Is that what we're being told?
That is my interpretation of events as well.

And I like it.


Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjar View Post
So basically It's the plot to gurren laggan. Just means we need more manliness to defeat hamidon.
Ready when you are.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
PFFT! Supreme executive power derives from THREE GIGANTIC REACTORS FILLED WITH COSMIC POWER!

...Can't argue with that logic!

ANTI-MATTER FOR PRAETORIAN EMPEROR!


 

Posted

I'm very interested in the Letter Writer at this point. We know that the Coming Storm is the Battalion, and that the LW is forming a team to fight the Coming Storm. We know that Ouroboros is not what it seems.

Anyone wanna place bets on if the Battalion was caused by Nemesis too? :P

My working theory: Nemesis is an Incarnate, and he has spent his long life on the "Slow" incarnate path (like players) and the Well has no control over him. Mender Silos is Nemesis (obviously) but not from as far in the future as he claims. He's been orchestrating events through Ouroboros to make sure he comes out on top. Perhaps he learned about the Battalion from Twilight's Son, who allegedly sold out all the Kheldians in his time. Perhaps, eventually, Nemesis' patience and incredible will allow him to direct the force of the Well, and it's his voice we hear.

As for Emperor Cole, he's not a bad guy, he just took the only option available to save his world. When he learned of Primal Earth, he launched the invasion not to show Hami he's in control, but to create a super-powered arms race in Primal Earth (his power dampeners forcing so many of us into Incarnate levels) to amass an army in our world strong enough to save his own world even if it means his own downfall.


 

Posted

Some more stuff related to the subject - Vanessa DeVore's updated bio from first Ward:

Quote:
"The mysterious Vanessa DeVore is a powerful psychic who formed the Carnival of Light from the desperate remains of powerful sorcerers and renegade telepaths who saw Emperor Cole for the evil he truly is. It is her mental powers which masks the Resistance from Praetor Tilman and the Seers. She helped form the Resistance from scattered and aimless groups opposed to Emperor Cole's totalitarian regime. She chose Calvin Scott to lead the violence prone Crusaders into battle with the Praetorian usurpers, and on the other hand she has carefully cultivated the Wardens to overthrown the empire from within and ultimately take over."
Now that she's been killed, maybe her daughter will take over her role, and help save the Mirror Kingdom from the Shadowlord?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa View Post
I
As for Emperor Cole, he's not a bad guy, he just took the only option available to save his world. When he learned of Primal Earth, he launched the invasion not to show Hami he's in control, but to create a super-powered arms race in Primal Earth (his power dampeners forcing so many of us into Incarnate levels) to amass an army in our world strong enough to save his own world even if it means his own downfall.
Interesting.

One thing about the Praetorians that's consistent throughout their Primal Earth invasions is that they only use lethal force against super powered opponents.

They do consistently destroy or extremely damage cities, but there are countless incidental lines about Praetorians only using lethal force when civilians are cleared from the area, refusing to destroy things vital to the function of the city (like Terra Volta), despite being perfectly capable of doing so.

Tyrant himself is also kind of an enigma.

Every one of the Praetors has some sort of mark against them in the current canon (ignoring the old goatee stuff for the moment)

Dominatrix distributes Fixadine to destroyers for her own amusement.
Chimera willingly joined with the man who murdered his parents, and is a total control freak.
Marauder is also distributing Fixadine, to give Powers Division an excuse to exercise their power. He's also unapologetically violent.
Neuron is an idea thief, and uses the citizens of Praetoria as lab rats.
Mother Mayhem is a psychic vampire, and is responsible for the Mindwashed Resistance and the Seer Network.
And Anti-Matter murdered his research assistant to take credit for creating the clockwork. Also there's the whole blasting his own island repeatedly with Anti-Matter pulses thing. (He's still my favorite though)

This is all stuff we've seen during Going Rogue. There's additional older stuff as well (Matricide, for instance) that may or may not be true in the current canon.

But... Tyrant.

Tyrant's big secret, so far, is that he never actually defeated the Hamidon.

Admittedly, our sources of information on him are scarce, and heavily biased in his favor. This new revelation really adds a twist to the nature of Praetoria.

How much of Praetoria is Tyrant's doing? How much of it are his Praetor's doing? How much of it is the Well's doing, and how much of it is Hamidon's doing?

Does Cole truly want Praetoria to be the idyllic little ant farm it is, or are all his extreme measures a result of his desire to appease the Hamidon?


 

Posted

On her First Ward arc, Vanessa gives a neat little bit of foreshadowing:

Quote:
"It is difficult for me to grow close to anyone, Golden Girl. I have foreseen the moment of death for all I am fated to meet... except my own. But I have foreseen through you that when my time comes you are near and I am in your thoughts, and that is comforting."


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Something else that might give a clue as to just how powerful the Batalion are going to be is that the 3 enhanced Goliath War Walkers on the Undergorund Trial are level 54+1 - so already the "lesser" threat of Tyrant and the loyalists is starting to throw a few level shifted enemies at us.

And putting that together with what Second Measue said in the February producer's letter:

Quote:
"Eventually, once we release all of the Incarnate Slots, you’ll even be a little overpowered for the first waves of Incarnate Trials, and by then, we’ll have something much more challenging for you to do with your newfound power. (Evil chuckle redacted.)"
It seems possible that a lot - or maybe even all - of the Batalion could be level shifted 54s.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

I've gotta admit, I'm rather disappointed.

On Virtue, 50 of us once took out Hamidon is about 7-9 minutes.
All the super powered people on Praetoria couldn't beat that thing?!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by retched View Post
I've gotta admit, I'm rather disappointed.

On Virtue, 50 of us once took out Hamidon is about 7-9 minutes.
All the super powered people on Praetoria couldn't beat that thing?!
The Praetorian Hamidon is a little more powerful than the one on Primal Earth


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The Praetorian Hamidon is a little more powerful than the one on Primal Earth
And there's that damn zone cap...

They could only send in like 50 people at a time. :P


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by retched View Post
I've gotta admit, I'm rather disappointed.

On Virtue, 50 of us once took out Hamidon is about 7-9 minutes.
All the super powered people on Praetoria couldn't beat that thing?!
Took it out int he sense that they only halted it...for now.

And like GG said, the Praetorian version laughs at the Primal one.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by retched View Post
I've gotta admit, I'm rather disappointed.

On Virtue, 50 of us once took out Hamidon is about 7-9 minutes.
All the super powered people on Praetoria couldn't beat that thing?!
Our Hamidon is more or less a mindless mass off Goo, Imagine if all that power were backed by something intelligent enough to pull the Goo Pile into something more mobile faster and more focused so that instead of having all that power spread across the adds you have it all in one body.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker View Post
Our Hamidon is more or less a mindless mass off Goo
That's the impression one gets from Blueside, but on the other team, there's a mission arc in which Hami carries on a perfectly intelligent, if megalomaniacal conversion with the player in another example of the devs awkwardly reducing an incomprehensible inhuman entity to an ordinary conversation partner.


 

Posted

So Emperor Cole/Tyrant has Dominatrix as his sidekick (among other things...) and Statesman has taken Desdemona as his new protégé. So I think it's safe to assume that no matter what reality Marcus Cole exists in... he digs chicks in leather.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno View Post
So Emperor Cole/Tyrant has Dominatrix as his sidekick (among other things...) and Statesman has taken Desdemona as his new protégé. So I think it's safe to assume that no matter what reality Marcus Cole exists in... he digs chicks in leather.
Ooooh, I wonder if The Reichsman has a Female Gestapo sidekick. I hear that's a very popular look in some circles.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Which means for the post-Praetorian Trials, no, you can't side with the Shivans
But Shivan Cheerleader is already level 50!


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
I think, and mind you, think is the operative word here, but I think that it's basically a situation where the well is...intelligent, but not really sentient. It has a goal, and it is able to take complex steps to reach that goal, but it can't really think critically about those steps, evaluate, or really learn from its mistakes. It's probably better to think of the Well less as a character and more as a force of nature.
Backwards... sentient but not really intelligent. It can make decisions, they just aren't very good ones and it doesn't learn from its mistakes very well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.