Spoilers for the Underground Trial
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-08-09 20:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
After the UG Trial I went to go talk to Prometheus and this is what I got from him, Cole made a deal with Hamidon to save humanity, Cole gave in to the well and to me it sounds like the Well is taking over Cole to help him with saving humanity to stop what is coming next to destroy humanity (I am guessing The Battalion). Statesman, Lord Recluse and everyone else did not prove themselves worthy for this task, only Cole did, so therefore Cole is not as evil as we thought, also Prometheus does not like this for whatever reason (I think he just doesn't like Cole) and wants us to stop Cole, that is why there is the BAF, Lambda and Keyes trials. If I am missing anything feel free to post it.
Cancel the kitchen scraps for widows and lepers, no more merciful beheadings and call off christmas!
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Or perhaps he was aiming to lull Hami into complacency while building up for round 2?
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
After all that "he's a threat to the multiverse!" crap, and playing him up as a big guy who's apparently even more evil than Recluse and his ilk...he's just letting himself get pushed around by Hamidon?
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Hence the crack about their next meeting. If Tyrant manages to reinstate himself as the biggest bad on Praetorian Earth as a result of all this...well, that'll be much more satisfying.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Or perhaps he was aiming to lull Hami into complacency while building up for round 2?
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I think some of you are downgrading Tyrant's power a bit too much - the Hamidon only agreed to the truce because it wasn't able to defeat Tyrant - it didn't go rampaging through South America, Mexico and parts of the South, wiping out whole cities and teams of superheroes sent to stop it, and then suddenly decide to back off a bit because it had a change of heart - Tyrant forced it to agree to a truce by being too powerful for it to defeat.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think so many people dislike Jack they let it feed into Statesman and his counterparts. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think some of you are downgrading Tyrant's power a bit too much - the Hamidon only agreed to the truce because it wasn't able to defeat Tyrant - it didn't go rampaging through South America, Mexico and parts of the South, wiping out whole cities and teams of superheroes sent to stop it, and then suddenly decide to back off a bit because it had a change of heart - Tyrant forced it to agree to a truce by being too powerful for it to defeat.
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Of course, Cole may know that in the end he can't beat Hamidon. And a draw when all that's left is Hamidon and it's creations and himself is really a lose.
Though, I would think if Cole could fight it to a standstill, why he couldn't get some backup and take it head on as a group. Unless those in Praetoria are the types to know there will be loses, and they don't want to be part of those loses.
Muarder: Sure! I could help you to defeat it, but the chance of me coming out of it alive is small enough that it's not worth the risk. I plan to stay alive as long as possible.
Others in Praetoria: Yeah. We agree.
Cole: *facepalm* Okay we'll go about this a different way.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I think so many people dislike Jack they let it feed into Statesman and his counterparts.
Of course, Cole may know that in the end he can't beat Hamidon. And a draw when all that's left is Hamidon and it's creations and himself is really a lose. Though, I would think if Cole could fight it to a standstill, why he couldn't get some backup and take it head on as a group. Unless those in Praetoria are the types to know there will be loses, and they don't want to be part of those loses. Muarder: Sure! I could help you to defeat it, but the chance of me coming out of it alive is small enough that it's not worth the risk. I plan to stay alive as long as possible. Others in Praetoria: Yeah. We agree. Cole: *facepalm* Okay we'll go about this a different way. |
Which . . . I find silly for a bit. The Well is powerful enough to take over individuals across dimensions and fuel Incarnates that (as GG above claims) can fight the Hamidon to a standstill, yet it's not powerful enough to force others to do Cole's bidding. The same Well that allows Cole to give Nightstar, Maurader and others the Incarnate power to stand up to at least 12 to 16 near Incarnates at once. Ummm, lol?
Something doesn't' add up, or there is waaaaaaaay more to the story. (I pray it's the later).
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Well there's forcing through brute force |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Which . . . I find silly for a bit. The Well is powerful enough to take over individuals across dimensions and fuel Incarnates that (as GG above claims) can fight the Hamidon to a standstill, yet it's not powerful enough to force others to do Cole's bidding. The same Well that allows Cole to give Nightstar, Maurader and others the Incarnate power to stand up to at least 12 to 16 near Incarnates at once. Ummm, lol?
Something doesn't' add up, or there is waaaaaaaay more to the story. (I pray it's the later). |
But then I think Cole realizes he can be out numbered just as well, and people may not fear him as much as Hamidon?Also a difference of "Hamidon is just trying to kill us, you're trying to enslave us!"
The well may also beable to take over a person, but that seems to be limited in how one "accepts" the Well, as well.
Of course it could just be sloppy writing (not saying I could do better mind you) and not paying attention to past elements.
We won't know for sure I guess untill they fix stuff or show us how it all comes together. Or both!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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What will Emperor Cole say when we destroy his empire?
"Tell me, [Character Name], if you can. You have destroyed so much. What is it, exactly, that you have created? Can you name even one thing? I thought not"
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It can only control the people who have taken the quick route to its power - it can't control people who take the slow route, or people who have no contact with it at all.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Which . . . I find silly for a bit. The Well is powerful enough to take over individuals across dimensions and fuel Incarnates that (as GG above claims) can fight the Hamidon to a standstill, yet it's not powerful enough to force others to do Cole's bidding. The same Well that allows Cole to give Nightstar, Maurader and others the Incarnate power to stand up to at least 12 to 16 near Incarnates at once. Ummm, lol?
Something doesn't' add up, or there is waaaaaaaay more to the story. (I pray it's the later). |
Statesman, Recluse, Tyrant, Reichsman and so on all gained their full powers at once by actually drinking from the Well itself - so the Well has a hold over them because of that.
We searched for the Well with Mender Ramiel, but found it was gone - so we're not able to get our powers all at once the way the others did - we're taking another route, tapping into the Well via the shards and threads of its power that are scattered throughout the multiverse - it's a much longer process than simply taking one drink form the Well itself, but it also means that the Well can't control us.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Freedom? |
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
What will Emperor Cole say when we destroy his empire?
"Tell me, [Character Name], if you can. You have destroyed so much. What is it, exactly, that you have created? Can you name even one thing? I thought not" |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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At risk of my immortal soul... I agree with GG.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think some of you are downgrading Tyrant's power a bit too much - the Hamidon only agreed to the truce because it wasn't able to defeat Tyrant - it didn't go rampaging through South America, Mexico and parts of the South, wiping out whole cities and teams of superheroes sent to stop it, and then suddenly decide to back off a bit because it had a change of heart - Tyrant forced it to agree to a truce by being too powerful for it to defeat.
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As a generalized reply, I have not seen any nitpicks re: the FW story arcs worth addressing in detail. The FW arcs are some of the most enjoyable in the game, IMO. That is not intended as an indictment on any other content, either. It is just good, fun stuff.
And I would expect certain heroes, played faithully, to struggle with some moments in the arcs.
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R.I.P.
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Vanysh - Eldrytch
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quick reply, i LIKE this twist, turns tyrant from a generic..well..tyrant and into a conflicted man who had to compromise himself for what he thinks is the greater good. that is far more interesting than a genric power corrupts fable. as for the lack of bright spots in the story, I disagree with that, i think it sets it up for us to be the bright spots, to succeed where tyrant failed and make peace without authoritarianism. we see the failure of the existing system and the stalemate of the power, but we can be the difference that breaks the stalemate.
also, if i may villains advocate here, how long have reds been dragged along on content that seemed awfully heroic for the greater good? some morally difficult stuff for heroes to do is really not unfair at this point, is it?
reminds me a bit of the anime giant robo, and i loved that ending.
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If it's too gray, heroes wouldn't be able to play it |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
also, if i may villains advocate here, how long have reds been dragged along on content that seemed awfully heroic for the greater good? some morally difficult stuff for heroes to do is really not unfair at this point, is it?
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Co-op content has to be heroic by default, to maximize the number of players who can take part in it - Trials take a lot of resources to develop, so it's only sensible to make them available for as many people as possible to get the best return on the development time spent on them.
Which means for the post-Praetorian Trials, no, you can't side with the Shivans
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No. The character can always make a choice.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If it's too gray, heroes wouldn't be able to play it
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edit: even if it is the unfortunate walk away and abandon the arc rather than <spoiler redacted>
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Freedom?
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So... at any given point in time, is Praetorian Vanessa DeVore alive or dead?
Not that I really care whether she lives or dies, but the single player storylines shoved into a multiplayer game are part of why I stopped reading mission text. If she is "dead" will she still be standing around in Praetoria as a trainer? Does she resurrect everytime we have to refarm this trial and is dead immediately after? When I am running Lambda just after an Underground am I correct to assume she is still dead or did time reset and she is alive again until the next time I run Underground?
Seems like we have a case of Schroedinger's Carnie.
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Which is the position the Resistance find themselves in |
Originally Posted by BYiro
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Since the Incarnate Trials are just a "raid 'n' upgrade" grind en masse, there's no way for the devs to incorporate the player choices that made the Going Rogue expansion so much more interesting than standard-issue CoH missions.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
No. The character can always make a choice.
edit: even if it is the unfortunate walk away and abandon the arc rather than <spoiler redacted> |
If the Trials were complemented by some single-player missions or arcs in which characters count make meaningful decisions, the Incarnate content would be much more attractive. Otherwise, the Incarnate path is merely riding a plot on a rail.
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She's alive and dead at the same time - the same way that Frostfire is leading the Outcasts in the Hollows while also being a Hero on Peregrine Island.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
So... at any given point in time, is Praetorian Vanessa DeVore alive or dead?
Not that I really care whether she lives or dies, but the single player storylines shoved into a multiplayer game are part of why I stopped reading mission text. If she is "dead" will she still be standing around in Praetoria as a trainer? Does she resurrect everytime we have to refarm this trial and is dead immediately after? When I am running Lambda just a Underground am I correct to assume she is still dead or did time reset and she is alive again? Seems like we have a case of Schroedinger's Carnie. |
It's all based in level progression - events from one level will sometimes change by the time you get to another level.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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^This.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
She's alive and dead at the same time - the same way that Frostfire is leading the Outcasts in the Hollows while also being a Hero on Peregrine Island.
It's all based in level progression - events from one level will sometimes change by the time you get to another level. |
I don't see why people have that hard of a time understanding it.
CoH isn't a static time line, where if they kill of a character at lvl 50, it means they died at the beginning of game for the new character who is now on the same path your character took.
They're giving a story. It's a story based on 1-8 (generally) characters going through the times.
What you (Oedipus_Tex) seem to be asking for would have the game changing with every change they made.
Frostfire was a villain who has become redeemed! We must now eliminate a lot of the Hollows Storyline!
I mean, sure they COULD, and maybe they will at some point, but I doubt it will happen to often.
Look they did that with Galaxy City and people are upset with it (my only complaint is, why can't my level 50 incarnate hero get back and help try to save it/rebuild it when they only have the police to stop you, who I would think would welcome the help).
The game assumes your character found out Hero One became a rikti. Do they end the TF when the first team complete it?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by BrandX
^This.
I don't see why people have that hard of a time understanding it. CoH isn't a static time line, where if they kill of a character at lvl 50, it means they died at the beginning of game for the new character who is now on the same path your character took. They're giving a story. It's a story based on 1-8 (generally) characters going through the times. What you (Oedipus_Tex) seem to be asking for would have the game changing with every change they made. Frostfire was a villain who has become redeemed! We must now eliminate a lot of the Hollows Storyline! I mean, sure they COULD, and maybe they will at some point, but I doubt it will happen to often. Look they did that with Galaxy City and people are upset with it (my only complaint is, why can't my level 50 incarnate hero get back and help try to save it/rebuild it when they only have the police to stop you, who I would think would welcome the help). The game assumes your character found out Hero One became a rikti. Do they end the TF when the first team complete it? |
And this would be why I don't read mission text. It takes away more than it adds, because in trying to be epic it just reinforces that nothing you do matters and no one can agree on what the current state of the game world is. And no I don't think it is a necessary state of affairs. Some people may like it that way, but some people also think Titanic was a great movie.
In particular, connecting a character's death to a piece of content you're supposed to repeat over and over is head scratching to me.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It can only control the people who have taken the quick route to its power - it can't control people who take the slow route, or people who have no contact with it at all.
Statesman, Recluse, Tyrant, Reichsman and so on all gained their full powers at once by actually drinking from the Well itself - so the Well has a hold over them because of that. We searched for the Well with Mender Ramiel, but found it was gone - so we're not able to get our powers all at once the way the others did - we're taking another route, tapping into the Well via the shards and threads of its power that are scattered throughout the multiverse - it's a much longer process than simply taking one drink form the Well itself, but it also means that the Well can't control us. |
My point is that if the Hamidon is that much of a threat, why can't the Well take over the ones that have already drunk from it and have them all beat down hami.
It was in response to the idea that Tyrant had to face Hami all by his lonesome. THAT aspect I'm not buying.
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You have a point. But then TFs and Trials are suppossed to be these some what epic things (of course this isn't always the case), that allow everyone to have their character involved in.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
And this would be why I don't read mission text. It takes away more than it adds, because in trying to be epic it just reinforces that nothing you do matters and no one can agree on what the current state of the game world is. And no I don't think it is a necessary state of affairs. Some people may like it that way, but some people also think Titanic was a great movie.
In particular, connecting a character's death to a piece of content you're supposed to repeat over and over is head scratching to me. |
Having your character involved in the storyline in the death of signature/big name AVs is likely what a lot of people want (and of course in the inverse saving them). If they just did it as a storyline thing, then lots of people can miss out on it and easily miss out on it at that.
When I began CoH, I remember getting the Doc Vahz arc often. No idea how I did or what progression I took. But I got it often. I havent seen him since i5, and I couldn't tell you what contact path to even take to get to him.
Now, from a small group/solo concept route, one can easily say they're the ones who did all that and just ignore it all when and if (and more likely when) they repeat it. You already ignore it now, no reason you cant just ignore it after the first run.
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The BrandX Collection
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The time of the hami wars was a good twenty years ago, there was no connection between primal and praetorian dimensions. Never mind the fact we don't know if Marauder and the rest even had access to the well. It's very possible that until that moment he was just as afraid of the well as Statesman.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
My point is that if the Hamidon is that much of a threat, why can't the Well take over the ones that have already drunk from it and have them all beat down hami.
It was in response to the idea that Tyrant had to face Hami all by his lonesome. THAT aspect I'm not buying. |
You aren't thinking fourth dimenionally /doc brown
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So basically It's the plot to gurren laggan. Just means we need more manliness to defeat hamidon.
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