/regen got buffed. Cats and dogs live in happiness.
Fine. I'll take all this into consideration and when i21 is live, I'm going to run a StJ/Regen, but unless I see some striking reason why my regen rate is killing me, I will continue to contest that its because its because my basic tools of recon, IH, DP and MoG are not up often enough, esp with SO's, that the limiting factor of my survivability will be the untimatly be the lack thereof. So much so that giving regen resist and dam resist is both a miss allocation of resistance buffs and counter to the theme of the set: get hit and get back in it.
I'm out. Thanks all. 
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Fast Healing Regen debuff resistance is nice WP gets it too maybe add the debuff resistance also in Integration. So SR will be king of def debuff resistance, ElecA king of end debuff resistance and Regen king of regen debuff resistance.
Dizzy
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's why I would very much have preferred recharge debuff resistance. Willpower needs -regen resistance, because regen is what it does to get back lost HP. Regen has more clicks going on to achieve the same, plus a mini-godmode that suffers (and benefits) from recharge effects.
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I wish the devs would do exactly these two things.
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I completely agree, recharge debuff resistance is what Regen really needs if the goal is to have a meaningful impact on survivability.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's why I would very much have preferred recharge debuff resistance.
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It will be nice to be able to take the edge off regeneration debuffs, and perhaps not get regeneration completely shut down with such regularity. I don't think those debuffs have the same level of effect that -recharge debuffs do though.
Putting aside meta-game concerns, I am pleased that Regeneration will have some resistance to debuffs of the effect it is named after. Survivability issues aside it always bothered me to see my regen shut down when playing a set named after the effect.
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Was fine before SM was brought in.. don't see the problem now
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Regen has some leeway with endurance use thanks to QR and few toggles, and a build spending so much time on survivability clicks (aw damn it I brought that up even though I said I wouldn't) is unlikely to run out of endurance, so losing CP or Ageless isn't a big deal, but you're still saying bye bye to Fireball or Ball Lightning.
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The problem is that people post too fast. I was specifically answering Werner's point about a Regen build based around heavy SM use, but by the time I clicked "send" it ended a few posts down the line.
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The net effect, if my guess about the magnitude of some of the nastier regen debuffs is correct, is that when you get hit with those debuffs, it will still floor your regen. BUT...you will be resisting enough of those debuffs so that you can pop Instant Healing and counteract the debuff, which will get you approximately back to your normal regen rate. |
Originally Posted by _Pine_
Hmmm, I wonder why I had it in my mind that it effected the duration. I mean, most -regen that you run into is -eleventy billion (besides the preatorian bursts, which stack quickly). Seems to me it would be better to quarter the duration than the magnitude with 50% resistance.
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It's the double whammy that tends to kill regens. Your regen gets shut down, causing you to rely on your click heals, then your recharge gets debuffed, which makes the clicks take forever to come back.
Most of the time when I'm running my regen, I can power through one or the other debuffs, but not both at once. With the regen debuff resistance we're getting, I'll be able to at least keep healing at roughly my normal rate (~700% for me) and I can pop a couple inspirations to help me stay alive until the recharge debuff wears off.
I'd like to see recharge debuff resistance added to the set as well, but it's unlikely to happen, and the regen debuff resistance is not nearly as useless as some are trying to make it out to be.
With a build like mine passive regeneration is highly useful, and I build for as much of it as possible without gimping other aspects of my build. I have around 700% regen, as I mentioned. I also have 32.5% defense to S/L attacks, and perma Dull Pain capability. Between my defense, passive regen, and perma HP cap, I can go several missions in a row without needing to hit a click heal at all. The fact that I can do that means I can save my heals for when I REALLY need them, instead of hoping I have one available when I take a few big hits in a row. So, for ME, knowing that I can resist a debuff to a large part of my survivability is a huge boon.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
A lot of that depends not only on one's build (including primary powerset), but also on how one plays. My passive Regen, which is around 580%, can't keep up with incoming damage for the settings I play at on either of my L50 Regen scrappers. One cares less because Dark Melee has Siphon Life pumping HP back into the pool, and the other cares less in traditional missions because Dual Blades is good at mowing down multiple foes fast, which drops the incoming (emitted) DPS.
(I typically play my Regens on x6 or x7 at +4. Edit: Both have level shifts, so foes are functionally +3.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think we're getting off subject rather than discussing this and that why not come up with some recommendations of better buffs to regeneration?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I have always been a fan of making the regeneration in Fast Healing, Integration and Instant Healing completely enhanceable. Since I highly doubt toggle IH is coming back, a better uptime (enough to be permable with enough recharge, maybe?). 90/300 base instead of 90/650. 95% recharge in the power and 70% for Hasten means you still would need about 91% global recharge for perma unless you go Ageless. Dedicate to it, and you could pull it off, but it is not like everyone and their mama is going be running around with perma-IH.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
I think we're getting off subject rather than discussing this and that why not come up with some recommendations of better buffs to regeneration?
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Even though I do not take or suggest rez powers on principle, Revive is so vanilla that I would rather take just about anything else even if I cared for it. It should at least be equivalent to Resurgence.
Quick Recovery is definitely not the booby prize of offensive buffs (thanks, Arcana!), especially since Integration is the only toggle and all the extra Recovery can go to offense, but most other secondaries have something more to offer offensively. Some Endurance Drain Resistance would be nice, too (ditto for WP, since they are the same power).
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
I would vote for fully enhanceable healing in Integration. I also would like the afore-mentioned self heal in Instant Healing - I'd be relatively happy with a 20-25% self heal there. And of course I'd be a big fan of Recharge Debuff resistance. I think any two of those would be damn nice for Regen.
Edit: The Regen in FH is already fully enhanceable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If you are going to softcap,why bother with Regen then? Just go /SR and take Aid Self or DM/SR so you have Siphon Life.|
Originally Posted by Werner
You should be able to soft cap Regeneration
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Quote:
| Shadow Meld -> Moment of Glory -> Shadow Meld -> Barrier -> Shadow Meld -> Moment of Glory -> Shadow Meld -> Eye of the Magus -> Shadow Meld -> Moment of Glory -> Shadow Meld -> Barrier -> Shadow Meld -> Moment of Glory -> Shadow Meld |
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Quote:
That made me tear from nostalgia...
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Instant Healing toggle returns...
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
Softcapped Regen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Softcapped SR with Aid Self.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
If you are going to softcap,why bother with Regen then? Just go /SR and take Aid Self or DM/SR so you have Siphon Life.
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The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
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Random possible Regen Buff thoughts:
Revive comes with a +Regen, post-regeneration buff in addition to some protection straight after rezzing to get toggles running again? (Totally not been watching Doctor Who for the first idea >.>)
Resiliance offers a small amount of +HP, High Pain Tolerance style? (Say 10%, half of HPT's)
Reconstruction gets the same recharge time as Healing Flames? (40 seconds, down from 60. Would help a lot more at early levels where all Regen has is Fast Healing for regen, till Integration at 16)
n% Heal on Instant Healing activation, 120 or 180 second duration? (Making it a bit more instant, then having the Regen take over for the rest. With 3 level 50 SO's, that brings recharge down to 333.5 seconds according to Mids, Hasten brings it to 245.3 seconds. Still downtime for the power, but gives a bit more time to work with it.)
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I disagree.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Softcapped Regen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Softcapped SR with Aid Self.
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Cool beans. Now I can play my Fire/Regen more.
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Couldn't agree more.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
That's not really relying on Regeneration (what the set is supposed to be for), is it?
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Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Quote:
because of the def debuff resistance?
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
I disagree.
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Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Quote:
Not really, no. It is just a playstyle preference. Capped SR is much more "fire and forget" to me personally, so I enjoy that more vs. the click click click of Regen or gimping my build to try and softcap Regen. Again, just a personal preference.
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Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
because of the def debuff resistance?
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Quote:
Well, no soft-capped SR gets there on its own: a significant part of the defensive strength alone comes from power pools and invention bonuses. On top of that, most of the strength of a solid soft-capped SR comes from outside the set between defensive bonuses and regeneration, +health, and heals (from aid self).
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
That's not really relying on Regeneration (what the set is supposed to be for), is it?
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Quote:
If your regen is softcapped, you will not be doing much clicking. You could actually be doing less clicking than the SR for better mitigation, as regen does not have a click mez protection and you would have really good passive regen. In this case the only difference besides defense debuffs is that if things do go south, the regen has more and larger heals to take care of it. In that instance you would do more clicking with the regen, but you would also survive... Whether it is gimped for that defense or not is on a build-by-build basis.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Not really, no. It is just a playstyle preference. Capped SR is much more "fire and forget" to me personally, so I enjoy that more vs. the click click click of Regen or gimping my build to try and softcap Regen. Again, just a personal preference.
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The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
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Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Quote:
He's probably specifically referring to builds that get to soft cap in manners discussed previously, by leveraging MoG, shadow meld, and doing a lot of clicking.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
If your regen is softcapped, you will not be doing much clicking.
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Although, for a soft-capped SR to match the performance of a soft-capped regen, the SR will probably be doing a lot of Aid Self clicking as well, and that might force as much idle time on the SR as the soft-capped regen is stuck in rooted animations.
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(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Because they play differently, and different people enjoy different things? Some people like fire and forget survivability. Some people like something with more active survivability.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
If you are going to softcap,why bother with Regen then? Just go /SR and take Aid Self or DM/SR so you have Siphon Life.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
That's not really relying on Regeneration (what the set is supposed to be for), is it?
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Look, I'm telling you what's possible at the top end. If people don't want to build it or play it that way, they don't have to. It's a game. Everyone should play it how it's fun for them. However, I don't see how anyone can continue to claim that Regen CAN'T hit a high level of survivability. It CAN, incarnate to hit or not. Someone may not know how, or may not have the budget, or may not have the necessary twitch reflexes, or may simply choose not to build or play that way. But that's not at all the same thing as the secondary being incapable of competitive performance and therefore needing a buff.
I'm not opposed to a buff. I'm just saying that "top end Regen survivability is teh suxxorz" or for that matter "I don't like having that many click powers" isn't likely to fly very well as an argument for one.
Edit: Here, I'll throw a bone to the buffers. I suspect that Regens DO die more frequently on incarnate trials than most other secondaries. They CAN be built so that this doesn't happen, but as I said, someone "may not know how, or may not have the budget, or may not have the necessary twitch reflexes, or may simply choose not to build or play that way". The devs, I believe, care a lot about AVERAGE performance, probably more so than peak performance. It may not matter that top end Regens are laughing at the incarnate trials if average Regens are getting slaughtered. If I was specifically looking for a buff, I'd be wanting the devs to do some data mining, with the expectation that they'll then SEE the supposed performance gap.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Am I missing something? Or are other people?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA