/regen got buffed. Cats and dogs live in happiness.
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I've ALWAYS slotted Fast Healing. I play a Claws/Regen, and I'm not really hurting for slots so badly that I have to gimp FH. SO, when this goes live I'll have 50% regen debuff resistance. (Which I suspect is enough to allow Instant Healing to overcome those ridiculous regen debuffs things like Longbow throw around) |
Originally Posted by Elegost
I just checked in game: 11.25% is at level 1. it goes up to 25.35% at lvl 50. Also it's freakin enhanceable! So we're gonna be sitting at ~50% regen resist at 50. If you can actually slot FH. which most of us don't.
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My reason for slotting Fast Healing is simple: I like a lot of passive regen on my regen characters. My main is sitting at close to 700% with just Integration running. I do that so I can heal back the piddly minion damage quickly and won't have to waste a Reconstruction on it. That's how I keep my DPS up, I try to hit my click heals as seldom as possible.
Also: Spiritual Alpha will enhance it as well, probably to the tune of an additional 5% resistance or so at tier 4.
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| Resilience is a base of 9.38% res(all), nearly double what it is now. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I imagine that may be a bit more important on a non-sword/regen, it's definitely worth the sacrifice in my case, however. Ele sits at just over 600% passive regen, and after this goes through, he'll be at 44% Regen debuff resist (just from the base slot and spiritual). So that's not terrible, either.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I've ALWAYS slotted Fast Healing. I play a Claws/Regen, and I'm not really hurting for slots so badly that I have to gimp FH. SO, when this goes live I'll have 50% regen debuff resistance. (Which I suspect is enough to allow Instant Healing to overcome those ridiculous regen debuffs things like Longbow throw around)
My reason for slotting Fast Healing is simple: I like a lot of passive regen on my regen characters. My main is sitting at close to 700% with just Integration running. I do that so I can heal back the piddly minion damage quickly and won't have to waste a Reconstruction on it. That's how I keep my DPS up, I try to hit my click heals as seldom as possible. |
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| So, it'll be around 13-14% after it's slotted? Nice, might have a reason to put a couple slots in Resilience now. Between that and Tough it looks like I should be getting around 30% or so S/L resistance. That will definitely help my survivability. |
I likely won't be changing the slots to either power, but that's because the build is too tight for any real modifications at the moment (only change will be to yank out the panacea unique from FH... that should've been a straight heal IO in the first place, anyway).
It looks like about 35% is the new peak s/l resistance value for a regen (if you exclude things like glad strike bonuses).
Keeping the same slotting, I'll be up to just over 31% res(s/l). So I'm still comfortable with the slot sacrifice.
At this point, I think the only other thing I could ask for would be to change the enhanceable portions of IH and/or integration back to the full values, rather than portions. Or maybe make revive better for the twelve people that actually take and use it.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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I think making shadow meld available to scrappers basicaly brought the non-defense based secondaries up to par... as you point out, it's a different play style in that you do have to click your secondary powers, but once you get used it, you just click those powers during the travel time between the piles of enemies and then you go nuts. I really wish shadowmeld didn't have a 3 second activation, but I've learned to cope.|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
So it should be much more tougher than WP, Inv, and SR?
The active play style of regen is why I play it. I played all the secondaries fully IOd out at some point. S/L softcap */ElA, */FA, */DA, WP, Inv, SR and Shields at the softcap even the up and coming EA (ok before the changes coming up). REGEN is NOT the push over that people make it sound like to be. Play style is gonna be way different than the rest. You just can't go attack crazy. |
One thing I started doing that helped me a lot (on /fire and /electric, too) is I put my heal on auto fire... one might think it's smarter to use it only as needed rather then waste a 50% heal when I'm at 85% health, but I find myself surviving a lot more when it's just topping off my HP as it recharges instead of letting my health get too low. Plus, it's one less thing to think about. All I worry about are my other clicks which I generally use prior to a fight and I am careful not to bite off more then I can chew.
OH and lastly, your self rez is one of your powers. If you watch a movie and you see the hero gets knocked down for the count and you think maybe he's dead.. then somehow he miraculously is able to get back up and beat up the badguys... that's your self rez. Once you embrace that concept, you don't think of dieing as failure, it's only failure if you die a 2nd time... that makes your self rez one of your biggest heals instead of it being the power you skip.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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In addition to Arcanaville's comments, no, not all balancing adjustments are done based on SO setups. That might be the devs' primary concern, but they are certainly not ignoring what's possible with IOs.
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Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
Aren't all balancing adjustments done based on SO setups? If that's the case, recharge doesn't play a factor. Which brings us back to regen underperforming in dps.
Again I'm just arguing because this topic is interesting. I'm no expert and I certainly haven't done any thorough research on the matter. I'm just trying to work this out systematically. |
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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I believe the argument goes that with no toggles up and no mitigation from Revive, anything that was able to kill you the first time is going to kill you again in very short order, perhaps before you can even hit Moment of Glory. I've never taken a rez power, but at one point, I was trying to do a "worst case scenario" RWZ challenge that included beginning the fight dead and using a wakie. Even with a tier 3 wakie, I could never hit a single power before I was dead again. Since my build was perfectly capable of reliably taking out a RWZ challenge spawn, this just reinforced my belief that Regen's rez was useless to me.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
OH and lastly, your self rez is one of your powers. If you watch a movie and you see the hero gets knocked down for the count and you think maybe he's dead.. then somehow he miraculously is able to get back up and beat up the badguys... that's your self rez. Once you embrace that concept, you don't think of dieing as failure, it's only failure if you die a 2nd time... that makes your self rez one of your biggest heals instead of it being the power you skip.
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Well, not useless. If I take the time to pull a spawn away from their spawn point, I could rez once they returned. But I'm not going to do that when I die once in a blue moon.
I suppose I could be missing something if you like Revive. How are you taking advantage of it?
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I wouldn't mind Revive giving an untouchable period of about 5-10 seconds just to retoggle or run away.
Right now, Revive is always followed my MoG for me just to get my toggles up and use some Insp. I'd rather not have to use MoG just to make sure Revive does its job.
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Is that so?| Yes, you CAN build a Willpower for really high recharge, but it isn't benefitting your survivability, so you're making compromises to get there. |
The difference between a high recharge build and a low recharge build isn't all that much. Slotting 5 LotG 7.5% is standard on every build of mine (unless I haven't access to five defense powers), as defense powers need to be enhanced. Adding two or three purple sets for 20-30% more recharge isn't much of a compromise. Pursuing defense sometimes nets +recharge as well, Obliteration being the most obvious example that I can think of for scrappers.
So let's say you're looking at 50% global recharge with 4 lotgs and 2 purple sets. Base is 100%, Hasten adds 70%, slotting in powers adds up to 90%, you end up roughly around 310%ish. Actually less than that while Hasten is down, admittedly, but you're still going to look at 240%ish.
I'm just making that point because it seems to me that sometimes, having 100% global recharge is looked as being twice as good as having 50% global recharge, as if there were no other recharge at all. It's not such a drastic difference.
As an aside, a regen mostly built around recharge, with minimal defense, isn't going to do the kind of tasks a WP built around defense can do. Defense is king and regen needs (needs, as in for a particular level of performance, of course you can go through the whole game with just Brawl, but that's irrelevant) even more of it than most other powersets, starting from 0% and 0% DDR. Having Recon recharging in 15s rather than 20s isn't going to do a whole lot of good if you're taking 1000 damage per second.
Good points.
Now, a high recharge Regen can on paper meet its defense needs by cycling Shadow Meld, Moment of Glory and Barrier. However, Shadow Meld and Moment of Glory are slow clicks (I forget if Barrier is), so if you're spending 3 of every 15 seconds or whatever clicking on your defense, plus using your heals, your DPS is definitely suffering, so this point means nothing in the context of this argument. I just didn't want people to think that high end Regen has little defense without massive investment in defense bonuses. I'd personally still invest heavily in defense bonuses, though. And yeah, you can add a lot of defense and a lot of recharge at the same time.
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I remember getting a low boosted Kat/wp on test and playing around with them. On SOs, /wp really isn't that standoutish, but then I'm not sure a lot of builds are considering what happens when we IO out builds. An SO build is like using training wheels. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Based on SO slotting, Regen blows the doors off of most other powersets on mitigation. It even does well compared to Willpower. Its only in invention-slotted higher end builds that Regen's weaknesses start to become apparent.
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100% agree. In my experience Regen is still vastly outshined by SR and SD on iTrials and I would go so far as to say normal content as well. It's a great set pre-20. After that, it just outlives its usefulness IMO.|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
If thats all it's not enough to pull the set out of the gutter for end game stuff.
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Oh, and
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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If you're taking 1000 damage per second, soft-cap defenses aren't going to save you either unless you're a Granite tanker or something.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Defense is king and regen needs (needs, as in for a particular level of performance, of course you can go through the whole game with just Brawl, but that's irrelevant) even more of it than most other powersets, starting from 0% and 0% DDR. Having Recon recharging in 15s rather than 20s isn't going to do a whole lot of good if you're taking 1000 damage per second.
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Chances are you aren't going to get hit to take that 1000 damage per second with capped Defenses. You will get hit with it on a Regen though.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you're taking 1000 damage per second, soft-cap defenses aren't going to save you either unless you're a Granite tanker or something.
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Yep. Additionally, if you can't build a scrapper to handle 1000 damage per second (generally speaking of course, which should be obvious to anyone who's actually looking to discuss rather than play forum semantics, but then with certain posters you just know you have to add these kind of parenthesis), you've got some fairly low standards for performance on highend builds ; even on a regen!
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Look at this another way. Before Arcanaville slaps you with some math.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Chances are you aren't going to get hit to take that 1000 damage per second with capped Defenses. You will get hit with it on a Regen though.
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Softcapped defense means your only taking 5% of incoming damage (averaged out) 5% of 1000DPS is still 50DPS.
Lets look at regen again shall we? 1000DPS. Most regens can get 50hp/second passive. Before dull pain/recon/IH, etc. So now your looking at 950DPS. OK, factor in Dull Pain, which boosts your hp/second from 50 to 70 (knocking another 20 DPS off) but it heals you for 80% of your HP, or about 1050 every 140 seconds, or giving you 7.5 more hp/second.
So now your only taking 922.5DPS. Lets factor in recon. that heals you for 50% (about 680 hp) every 20 seconds, or about 34 more hp/second. putting you at 888.5DPS.
Now lets do IH. Slotted up, it'll give you about 1000% more regen, or about 100hp/second on top of what you already have, knocking another 100 off your incoming DPS.
Your now taking 788.5 DPS after factoring in your clicks, and passive regen. Then you do MoG. MoG will put you so far above the softcap that you'll almost never face cascading failure with it active. That knocks your incoming damage 95% (like the softcap example above does) that puts you down to 39.425 incoming DPS...
Thats before any primary you may have, or even any base defense (combat jumping, weave, set bonuses, etc) plus any resistance you could have from resilience, or tough which lowers the incoming DPS even more.
I'm sure Arcanaville could show the math much better then i could, and i tried my best to use SOs level values, but there you have it. Softcapping is all well and good, but /regen can meet, or even exceed the survivability that a pure softcap build could have.
MoG is perma now. Interesting.
If you have to pick and attack one hypothetical example of which exact numerical values aren't even relevant to my main point, the least you could do is to do it right. :/
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And you can't kill mobs before they kill you? Also interesting. MoG allows you to take the alpha, and kill things with the comfort of above softcap survival so that when MoG drops you aren't facing that full brunt of the damage.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
MoG is perma now. Interesting.
If you have to pick and attack one hypothetical example of which exact numerical values aren't even relevant to my main point, the least you could do is to do it right. :/ |
/regen isn't nearly as squishy as you seem to think, especially with any other form of mitigation is a force multiplier for /regen. Adding just 30% resistance means your not just decreasing the incoming damage by 30%, but your increasing the time you have to regen by 30%. Add 10% defense, and those few attacks that miss give you the chance to heal 300 or more HP.
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Correct, my BS/Regen has 59% Regen debuff resistance with T4 Spiritual.
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Originally Posted by Elegost
I just checked in game: 11.25% is at level 1. it goes up to 25.35% at lvl 50. Also it's freakin enhanceable! So we're gonna be sitting at ~50% regen resist at 50. If you can actually slot FH. which most of us don't >.<
Resilience is a base of 9.38% res(all), nearly double what it is now. Devs love us. It's true! |
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10%. Defense can only reduce incoming damage by a maximum of 90% from conventional critters since I7. A soft-capped anything that takes 100 dps through their defenses is going to be very dead very fast unless it has a lot of resistances as well. A Granite tanker at the 90% res cap and with soft-capped defenses would reduce that incoming damage to 10 dps which is survivable.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Look at this another way. Before Arcanaville slaps you with some math.
Softcapped defense means your only taking 5% of incoming damage (averaged out) 5% of 1000DPS is still 50DPS. |
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I knew i was doing something wrong... Now can you run some numbers on my /regen survivial? I think i did that right.. not sure.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
10%. Defense can only reduce incoming damage by a maximum of 90% from conventional critters since I7. A soft-capped anything that takes 100 dps through their defenses is going to be very dead very fast unless it has a lot of resistances as well. A Granite tanker at the 90% res cap and with soft-capped defenses would reduce that incoming damage to 10 dps which is survivable.
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All the math in the world is not going to make Regen more fun to me to play vs. my SR scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Softcapping is all well and good, but /regen can meet, or even exceed the survivability that a pure softcap build could have.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
MoG allows you to take the alpha
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| Adding just 30% resistance means your not just decreasing the incoming damage by 30%, but your increasing the time you have to regen by 30%. |
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
"1000 damage per second" is "1000 damage per second", not "1000 damage per second for 15 seconds". You don't get to change the example if you want to prove it wrong, sorry.
That example, which was in a reply about WP vs Regen, which would lead one to wonder where did those mythical softcapped characters without any form of resistance or regen and granite tankers came from, was illustrating the relative importance or lack thereof of additional recharge beyond a certain point on Regen's survivability. Spinning that as me saying regen is squishy is either being mischevious or stupid. Pick one.
Ultimately, trying to derail rather than answer the main point says more than anything either of you could type up.
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Just for reference, I play both and enjoy both. But no one is, or should be trying, to use math to prove a set is fun. A powerset can be the most powerful and easiest powerset to play and not be fun, because fun is totally arbitrary and subjective. There is no actual criteria for a fun set that works for everyone.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
All the math in the world is not going to make Regen more fun to me to play vs. my SR scrappers.
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Unless it's a Psi attack or an unresistable attack or the off chance you get hit through MoG anyway (which does happen). 30% resist to S/L does little to help against Psi, Fire, Energy, Cold, Dark etc. damage. |
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What it says is I saw a stupid example, and I shot it down. I'm not attempting to spin anything as anything else, and if you're going to get huffy about it, better start pointing out the specifics of the accusation you're attempting to make.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
"1000 damage per second" is "1000 damage per second", not "1000 damage per second for 15 seconds". You don't get to change the example if you want to prove it wrong, sorry.
That example, which was in a reply about WP vs Regen, which would lead one to wonder where did those mythical softcapped characters without any form of resistance or regen and granite tankers came from, was illustrating the relative importance or lack thereof of additional recharge beyond a certain point on Regen's survivability. Spinning that as me saying regen is squishy is either being mischevious or stupid. Pick one. Ultimately, trying to derail rather than answer the main point says more than anything either of you could type up. |
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I'm not a huge fan of regen, I don't hate the set either though. |
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
All the math in the world is not going to make Regen more fun to me to play vs. my SR scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Unless it's a Psi attack or an unresistable attack or the off chance you get hit through MoG anyway (which does happen).
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
30% resist to S/L does little to help against Psi, Fire, Energy, Cold, Dark etc. damage.
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It does get some measure of defense against those that's a given - but on the other hand Regen can pop MoG in that situation and a Regen Brute would then be over the Incarnate Softcap as well as Capped Resistances to all but Psi with potentially 3K HP along with regen's well..regen & click heals.
All the other secondaries mostly rely on toggles and passives. Regen relies more on active defense. So while the other scrappers of other secondaries can freely use their attack chains without interruptions, the regen scrapper has to fit in a heal click in-between thus reducing its overall dps.
That's all great but if regen is penalized in dps because of how it works, it should be balanced by having more suvivability, perhaps be the top of all the scrapper secondaries. I mean, isn't that the whole point behind the theory behind tankers? Higher defenses for lower dps? In regen's case, it's same or lower defenses for lower dps.
Regen gets quick recovery, which effectively adds about 39% more endurance recovery over and above slotted stamina. If you can't figure out how to convert 39% more recovery into more dps, something's wrong.
Also, the fact a mitigation set has clicks is double-edged. They have to pay cast time to use their powers, but on the other hand they benefit from things like hasten which does not improve passives or toggles.
If Dark Armor manages to get Dark Regen cycle times to 10 seconds or thereabouts, I guarantee you they don't consider it a "penalty." In fact, even though Dark Armor just has the one click, it probably spends more time than Regen casting clicks at its maximum performance level (i.e. using clicks as often as possible).
** It takes highly degenerate farming cases for inspirations to play a major factor here. Above a certain critical kill speed, inspirations fall so fast they can maintain a high kill speed, effectively turning the player into a ram jet. This requires build strength and performance levels off the charts of any balancing criteria for this game.
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