/regen got buffed. Cats and dogs live in happiness.
Quote:
A lot of the BAFs I've been on recently, people in general seem to not know this - when it was one of the things I constantly heard early on when trials went live.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For those unfamiliar with their mechanics, they self buff their own tohit with every attack they use, like a perma-follow up. Those tohit buffs last for ten minutes, so they effectively stack indefinitely (unless you deliberately leave them alone for at least that long and "reset" them).
|
I usually explain the mechanic when it starts to cause problems and people can't figure out why.
Unfortunately sometimes a mixture of reckless KB and Immobs can exasperate the situation.
Quote:
Never said it was. See my earlier post.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
However, -Def isn't absent
|
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Quote:
Well that explains why i was getting hit constantly in BAF ,even after eating about 10 purples and having soft capped def! So basically their attacks are almost auto hit.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's no question that there is more -regen in the trials than in the standard game. However, -Def isn't absent, and besides the Vickies the more serious threat comes from something missing from the paragonwiki page: the 9CUs. For those unfamiliar with their mechanics, they self buff their own tohit with every attack they use, like a perma-follow up. Those tohit buffs last for ten minutes, so they effectively stack indefinitely (unless you deliberately leave them alone for at least that long and "reset" them).
|
Quote:
Yep. I'm guessing that the Devs put this in to counter Destiny powers like Barrier etc.
|
Originally Posted by superherofan
Well that explains why i was getting hit constantly in BAF ,even after eating about 10 purples and having soft capped def! So basically their attacks are almost auto hit.
|
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Quote:
I never said you did: I said that mainly for completeness, and I did quote your post in my reply. The point was that even though -Def is less common in much of the end game than it is in the standard game, the devs have more than picked up the slack by adding tohit buffs which are essentially unresistable autohitting unavoidable universal defense debuffs.
|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Never said it was. See my earlier post.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Its actually a meta-gaming puzzle. Those guys are there to make sure a team cannot simply tank the reinforcements and ignore them while focusing exclusively on other objectives. If you keep them around too long, they will eventually burn through almost any protection you can throw up against them in terms of defense short of saturation bombing healing.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Yep. I'm guessing that the Devs put this in to counter Destiny powers like Barrier etc.
|
As is often the case, defense sets get caught in the cross-fire when the devs first add a lot of ancillary defense into the game, then add counters to that defense.
Which is actually something to keep in mind before clamoring for too much -regen and other debuff protection. Someone's job is to make critters that are a threat, and if he sees that -regen doesn't do anything to regen scrappers, he'll just up the ante. Same with -recharge and other debuffs. There was no problem adding DDR, because the huge amount of -DEF in the game wasn't there specifically to kill SR scrappers, it was to hit everyone with moderate levels of -DEF. The devs have other ways of killing SR scrappers so they do not need to ever put in -100000000% defense debuffs just to work around DDR.
But there are only so many ways to kill a regen, and if you ask for too much protection against all of them, you might not like the arms race you will trigger.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I explicitly pointed out that several (most) of my non-Regen characters who go on iTrials aren't even softcapped to non-Incarnate foes. None of them have regen debuff resistance. They do get hit on iTrials. The best of them have on the order of 250-300% passive regen, and several have a lot less. I can't remember a time when one of them had an iTrial caused their regen monitor to go red.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Keep in mind, your build is most likely far better than what the average person may have.
|
If my characters who absolutely are going to be hit dont have as much regen as a Regen aren't suffering a lot of -regen, then it simply isn't sensible to conclude that the same regen debuffs are likely to be a high-threat risk for my Regens.
(Not including Barrier, most of my melee characters - who are Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers and a Widow - max out at 35-40% passive defense to either the Melee position or L/S damage, and then have 25-30% to the other positions or damage types, excluding Psi. The only character of mine with Incarnate-level softcapped defenses all around is my Widow.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I really didn't realize there was that much -REGEN on the iTrials. But as I've said before and will again, I don't die on iTrials. I solo crates/chambers all the time. I don't think the critters powers really matter all that much since once you get to 50+1 everyone is spamming incarnate powers left and right anyways. And at that level....even a blaster isn't gimped.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Personally, I think this is why Regen feels gimped in comparison on the higher end iTrials. |
So no, don't feel gimped on the iTrials at all. I have now T4'd out a BS/Regen, a Elec/SD and a DM/SR scrapper on the iTrials. The BS/Regen still feels the most survivable to me and definitely does the most damage (although the Elec/SD with Shield Charge and Lightning Rod makes quick work out of whole spawns of IDF).
Quote:
Well, I don't die often in the trials on my blaster either, and that's usually due to smart inspiration usage (and actually paying attention, which interestingly seems to happen more often on Lambdas than BAFs). If there are enough insps in the world to keep my blaster alive, there certainly are enough to keep a well-built regen alive. That doesn't specifically speak to the question of whether Regen is as strong as the other sets in the trials, just that it can be strong enough to succeed which is a somewhat different statement.
|
Originally Posted by Crysys
I really didn't realize there was that much -REGEN on the iTrials. But as I've said before and will again, I don't die on iTrials. I solo crates/chambers all the time. I don't think the critters powers really matter all that much since once you get to 50+1 everyone is spamming incarnate powers left and right anyways. And at that level....even a blaster isn't gimped.
So no, don't feel gimped on the iTrials at all. I have now T4'd out a BS/Regen, a Elec/SD and a DM/SR scrapper on the iTrials. The BS/Regen still feels the most survivable to me and definitely does the most damage (although the Elec/SD with Shield Charge and Lightning Rod makes quick work out of whole spawns of IDF). |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Hmm...I have a Corruptor built for regen, stuffed with about as much as I could manage, and I seem to remember it getting shut down on iTrials from time to time. Maybe the difference is that the build has almost no defense, so the debuffs all land. Even if you're not softcapped if you have a decent chunk of defense at least some of the debuffs will miss.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If my characters who absolutely are going to be hit dont have as much regen as a Regen aren't suffering a lot of -regen
|
Since that build is pure resistance/regen for mitigation, I really notice when my regen gets shut down. I've finished incarnating that toon already but I'll see if I can find time to run through a few trials to confirm I'm remembering things right.
Quote:
A fair point. I'll mention though that I'm very bad about not using my inspirations unless I know that dying will be detrimental to the overall team or league goal, like badge runs, dying as a team lead on a newbie League, etc.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Well, I don't die often in the trials on my blaster either, and that's usually due to smart inspiration usage (and actually paying attention, which interestingly seems to happen more often on Lambdas than BAFs). If there are enough insps in the world to keep my blaster alive, there certainly are enough to keep a well-built regen alive. That doesn't specifically speak to the question of whether Regen is as strong as the other sets in the trials, just that it can be strong enough to succeed which is a somewhat different statement.
|
I make a point of trying to use inspirations as little as possible because I want to understand just what my build can survive on its own. That has a side effect, though, in which I effectively have trained myself not to think to use them. That wasn't my goal, but it's more or less how it's turned out. Most of the time when I do die, if I'd use some inspirations, I wouldn't have.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The only inspirations I ever use are damage. I have one of those nifty macros that converts 3 of anything to reds. I agree with the "paying attention" comment, however. Knowing when to hit Dull Pain so you get both the heal and the double HP for example. Or saving IH for the rooms where the 9CUs all gang up on you. Or for that matter knowing when to hit MOG. But "paying attention" is HOW you play a Regen.
Quote:
I'd wager this is what happens to most of those posting here too... probably more often than not too. Some people just can't admit it though. |
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Hmm...I have a Corruptor built for regen, stuffed with about as much as I could manage, and I seem to remember it getting shut down on iTrials from time to time.
|
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Do you have any idea how much that sort of insinuation just ends up making you look like you have an axe to grind with people who are don't share your distaste for the Regen powerset?
Whether or not the IDF regularly severely debuff your regen (and I steadfastly maintain they do not), that still does nothing for the argument that strong -regen effects makes a Regen feel gimp. If that's the case for someone, that someone has built their Regen poorly. Does having your Regen shut off (or severely reduced) cause a problem? Of course it does. It's not something you can ignore completely. However, my experience in play all across the level 50 spectrum says it's not something that regularly kills a Regen for someone who knows what they're doing. Having your recharge crushed is far more likely to do so. My main objection to your observation about debuffs from Praetorean mobs being why Regen feels weak in the Incarnate game (which I disagree with more broadly) is the express inclusion of Regen debuffs as a justification for your position. Recharge debuffs I disagree with less strongly.
For my Regens, noticeable recharge debuffs tend to be on the order of 50% and up. Dangerous debuffs are on the order of 100% and up. I don't consider the -recharge debuffs from most IDF spawns severe, but they can definitely be noticeable. Sometimes they get severe if the spawn contains too much of the same catagories of critters. A spawn of all Seers or non-boss WarWorks can debuff your recharge pretty badly. Fortunately, that doesn't happen all that often, because there are other mobs the spawn generator tends to mix in. The notable exception is in the Tin Mage TF, where the WarWorks apply crushing -recharge stacking.
For me, the primary threats that affect a Regen in the Incarnate end game are the potential for extremely high burst damage. A well-played Regen is about reaction time and planning using your heals. If there are high odds of sudden, unexpected burst damage, this increases the risk that leaving yourself meaningfully below max HP will result in sudden defeat. Yet using your heals early to keep your HP (and bonus HP) topped off means you don't have those heals in reserve for when the big hits do come.
Edit: I wanted to add this to the original post, but I couldn't check it since the servers were down.
While time played is not directly correlated with skill accumulated, I like to think that my posting history (things people have seen me say, not my post count) indicate I know how to play (and build) a decent Regen, and I have a lot of play time to back up the Regen observations I make. I have three level 50 Regens.
- Dark Melee/Regen/Soul Scrapper: 1937 patrol hours. 42 Incarnate trials run
- Martial Arts/Regen/Soul Stalker: 1130 patrol hours. 64 Incarnate trials run
- Dual Blades/Regen/(None) Scrapper: 1029 patrol hours. 44 Incarnate trials run
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Having spent the better part of the past few pages adamantly trying to convince people with a dissenting opinion from yours that they're somehow not built right or aren't playing right, I'm at a loss to see how you can justify your comment? Feel free to dismount your high horse at any time. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Do you have any idea how much that sort of insinuation just ends up making you look like you have an axe to grind with people who are don't share your distaste for the Regen powerset?
|
Good for you that your Regen doesn't die on iTrials. My experience and the experience of quite a few (7+ year veterans mind you) friends I team with regularly is that /SR and /SD far outperforms Regen any day of the week at endgame. I agree with those who've expressed that while this buff is nice, but it doesn't help the Regen set all that much.
Sorry... had been lurking this thread and found the reply funny.
Quote:
I am confused as to why you feel my posting a dissenting opinion is me mounting a "high horse". I justify my comment very simply - Shard_Warrior's little jab there attacks the integrity of the poster and not the statements the posters makes.|
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA
Having spent the better part of the past few pages adamantly trying to convince people with a dissenting opinion from yours that they're somehow not built right or aren't playing right, I'm at a loss to see how you can justify your comment? Feel free to dismount your high horse at any time.
|
I've been responding with information that attempts to rebut factual assertions someone else is making. My only comment regarding Shard_Warrior as an individual was the response you seem to have such a hard time putting in context, and you'll notice I couched it in terms of "it makes you look like", leaving quite open the possibility that that's not what Shard intended. Nothing about that should come across as me having an axe of my own to grind here, beyond a distaste for misinformation. You'll find most posters here will respond to people posting incorrect information about a powerset they know well, especially if they like it.
I don't begrudge Shard_Warrior disliking playing Regen. I just want to make sure that the dislike doesn't breed attempts at justification that wander past reasonable interpretation of facts. I don't accuse Shard of trying to do that, but the comment about "the other side can't admit it" doesn't do much for the sense of integrity involved.
As for my early responses in this thread to Diesel Punk, his claims about Regen's performance absolutely require either that he's flat out lying, or that he doesn't know how to play it in a way to avoid the disastrous results he describes. I don't assume he's lying, so I assume he doesn't know how to play the powerset well. I have no qualms about saying that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'd have included your own veiled jabs at telling others they aren't playing/built right, but I see you've edited your previous post to remove them since you were called on it. Nice try though. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I am confused as to why you feel my posting a dissenting opinion is me mounting a "high horse". I justify my comment very simply - Shard_Warrior's little jab there attacks the integrity of the poster and not the statements the posters makes.
|
I haven't edited out anything in response to you. The only edit you elicited was that I had changed "do you have any idea" to "do you realize", and I put back the more snarky wording because you had already quoted it.
Edit: FWIW, link to screenshot of post edit history - current versus original. If there's another post you're referring to, I don't see where any of my post edit dates line up with the possibility I edited them in response to you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The title of this thread is a lie. It is quite evident that dogs and cats are not happy about teh regin.
Heh.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Lolol hey Shart_Warrior Lrn 2 play before you assume what others can or cant do just cuz your fail at regen doesnt mean everyone else does too lmao
|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
I'd wager this is what happens to most of those posting here too... probably more often than not too. Some people just can't admit it though.
|
Quote:
Awww dont catch feelings lil miss freeze lol
|
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA
Having spent the better part of the past few pages adamantly trying to convince people with a dissenting opinion from yours that they're somehow not built right or aren't playing right, I'm at a loss to see how you can justify your comment? Feel free to dismount your high horse at any time.
Good for you that your Regen doesn't die on iTrials. My experience and the experience of quite a few (7+ year veterans mind you) friends I team with regularly is that /SR and /SD far outperforms Regen any day of the week at endgame. I agree with those who've expressed that while this buff is nice, but it doesn't help the Regen set all that much. Sorry... had been lurking this thread and found the reply funny. |
Quote:
Fail (:|
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA
I'd have included your own veiled jabs at telling others they aren't playing/built right, but I see you've edited your previous post to remove them since you were called on it. Nice try though.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Crysys
The title of this thread is a lie. It is quite evident that dogs and cats are not happy about teh regin.
|
Quote:
Sorry to change the subject, but could someone please tell me what this whole "pancake" obsession is recently? I've seen:|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
How much?
Also to all the people who kept arguing against Regen getting debuff protection: pancake it. Though I would have preferred recharge debuff protection, still this is nice. |
"Somebody pancakes in a trial"
"I pancaking love you"
And, the above "pancake it"
What's up with this?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
|
...
There are relatively few -DEF and -RES powers in comparison. Most of your -DEF comes from the Mk-VI Victorias.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)