/regen got buffed. Cats and dogs live in happiness.
What is the set supposed to be for? Passive regeneration? The Regeneration secondary hasn't been about passive regeneration in probably five years or more. I'm sorry it's misnamed, but the power set is what it is. Would you be happier if we called it "spastic clicky survivy thing" instead?
Look, I'm telling you what's possible at the top end. If people don't want to build it or play it that way, they don't have to. It's a game. Everyone should play it how it's fun for them. However, I don't see how anyone can continue to claim that Regen CAN'T hit a high level of survivability. It CAN, incarnate to hit or not. Someone may not know how, or may not have the budget, or may not have the necessary twitch reflexes, or may simply choose not to build or play that way. But that's not at all the same thing as the secondary being incapable of competitive performance and therefore needing a buff. I'm not opposed to a buff. I'm just saying that "top end Regen survivability is teh suxxorz" or for that matter "I don't like having that many click powers" isn't likely to fly very well as an argument for one. Edit: Here, I'll throw a bone to the buffers. I suspect that Regens DO die more frequently on incarnate trials than most other secondaries. They CAN be built so that this doesn't happen, but as I said, someone "may not know how, or may not have the budget, or may not have the necessary twitch reflexes, or may simply choose not to build or play that way". The devs, I believe, care a lot about AVERAGE performance, probably more so than peak performance. It may not matter that top end Regens are laughing at the incarnate trials if average Regens are getting slaughtered. If I was specifically looking for a buff, I'd be wanting the devs to do some data mining, with the expectation that they'll then SEE the supposed performance gap. |
All I know is that I don't die on iTrials. All of the iTrials are a breeze to me and have been since I was 50+1. I solo AV's (not all, but got Dimensional Warder solo BEFORE I tricked out with IO's) and this is without using incarnate powers (they weren't there when I did). For grins I've been soloing AV's and GM's again now that I AM all IO'd out. Even unslotting my Alpha and Interface so I'm not so uber, I do just fine. I do the Pylons. My DPS (primary is Broadsword) may suffer a bit because I'm clicking other powers besides my primary, but I've become accustomed to that kind of playstyle for this character.
Honestly, my other scrappers are kinda boring by comparison.
Built properly, I don't see the problem with the set. I welcome a buff here and there, but having been on the other side of the occasion (where Regen = stupid easy mode) I'm glad they made it a bit more challenging than it once was. And by "built properly" I don't mean top-end, double-digit-billion-inf build. I don't have a single purple. I'm not softcapped for defense....about 25% in Ranged/AOE/Energy/NegEnergy and Melee. Melee, with Parry, is easy to cap and since thats where I spend most of my time, its the right approach. S/L defense is below 20% each. 140% recharge (with Hasten). About 30% S/L resistance as well (Resilience/Tough). Capped HP and END from having all accolades. MOG and Shadowmeld are both there but the only time I'm cycling them is soloing AV's, GM's and the LAM chambers/crates. Otherwise, its one or the other as Alpha soakers as needed, not an every-fight sort of "ZOMG IM REGIN AND DYING CLICK CLICK CLICKETY CLICK I WISH I WAS A REAL SCRAPPAH!". Maybe I've built a "best practices" build by reading forum posts, but certainly not a min/max build or doing any kind of bizzare IO slotting/weird power choices.
Everyone's mileage varies. You can tell me I'm not surviving because of Regen and frankly, I don't understand where that comes from. If I turn off all my Regen powers, I guarantee you I'm dying. Its the backbone. It may not be "as survivable" as my /SD or /SR builds but in my experience, it definitely is and frankly...what the hell else am I supposed to be taking on solo or teamed that I can't handle? Thus far, I've handled everything the game can throw at me. Not that tough with any build, Regen isn't any different in that respect.
Yeah. People need to clearly delineate objections to how something plays to boundaries on how it performs.
I don't buy into the argument that people using things like Parry or Shadow Meld are doing anything more obtuse with the Regen powerset to make it survivable than people who are using +defense pool powers, Aid Self or various set bonuses to make powersets like Shields, Willpower or even SR highly survivable - especially when running without ally buffs in Incarnate content. Regen may rely more heavily on strong buffs than other sets to reach high levels of performance, and I certainly think Parry/DA and Shadow Meld are strong powers. That's natural, because many of Regen's core powers provide HP recovery - a linearly stacking survival mechanism. Layer some good non-linear benefits on it, though, and that scales extremely well.
Regen may well be to Scrapper powersets what Blasters were (are) to ATs - something that can perform very well in the right hands but may not do well averaged across the player base. In that view, it might warrant a buff. I am very much not in a good position to judge that; not only am I very unlikely to be an "average" player, I quite likely don't even team with them often, either.
Regen is probably my favorite survival powerset. I prefer the clicky playstyle - when I survive something, I feel like it was more because of my choices and reactions, and less because the RNG smiled on me. I lean towards other mitigation powersets with clicky aspects, like Firey Aura, and after those, I prefer powersets that at least benefits from tactical positioning - Invul, WP and Shields. SR is on the bottom of my preferences. It's fantastic at avoiding things ... and very little of it has anything to do with how I play.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
This is a little like having the debate about automatic versus manual transmissions in a sports car forum. Some people hate the concept of having to manually shift their vehicles, some people would only consider that a "true" sports car experience and then there's the middle group who buys the automatic with the manual shift override feature to get some of each experience.
Really just a personal preference thing.
Now with the new 5th tier powers in the pools, I think a 'Burn Out' effect for all your Regen powers added to Revive (with a short duration of untouchable) is even more appropriate than when I last suggested it. Why not? It'll only affect Reconstruction, Dull Pain, Instant Healing and MoG and you have to die to get the effect.
Also, an insta-recharge on Reconstruction when you use Instant Healing would be stellar ^_^ |
Instant Healing instant-recharging Reconstruction is a fair start also. Maybe adding a heal over time effect on Reconstruction when used with IH, also?
Now with the new 5th tier powers in the pools, I think a 'Burn Out' effect for all your Regen powers added to Revive (with a short duration of untouchable) is even more appropriate than when I last suggested it. Why not? It'll only affect Reconstruction, Dull Pain, Instant Healing and MoG and you have to die to get the effect.
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Also, an insta-recharge on Reconstruction when you use Instant Healing would be stellar |
No +HP on Resiliance, though. Stalkers already bang their head on the HP cap with min-slotted Dull Pain. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Regen may well be to Scrapper powersets what Blasters were (are) to ATs - something that can perform very well in the right hands but may not do well averaged across the player base. In that view, it might warrant a buff. I am very much not in a good position to judge that; not only am I very unlikely to be an "average" player, I quite likely don't even team with them often, either.
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There are already plenty of people who perform very well with Regen because they've got a lot of experience with it and know things like when to hit a heal and when not to, and have the timing of all the clicks down.
Sure, a buff would help the average player who doesn't perform very well with Regen. But any buff that makes the set better for them would make it overpowered in the hands of the payers who already do well with it.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Sure, a buff would help the average player who doesn't perform very well with Regen. But any buff that makes the set better for them would make it overpowered in the hands of the payers who already do well with it.
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As Werner mentioned, any buffs to Regen on such a basis, assuming the basis was valid, should be based on similar analysis of performance data for Regens compared to other powersets. Without that, the idea Regen doesn't work well for Joe Super is just hair-brained speculation.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Again, just a personal opinion.
The Regeneration secondary hasn't been about passive regeneration in probably five years or more. |
But any buff that makes the set better for them would make it overpowered in the hands of the payers who already do well with it. |
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Eh. I don't think I agree, and it's one reason I was not hoping for regen debuff resistance for the set as a buff. Foes that debuff regen 1000% or more are extremely common in the late game.
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In fact, the only place I can find -1000% regen debuff at the moment outside of trials is on Rikti Heavies and the few mobs that possess a variant of EMP. I haven't done a complete analysis of all -regen everywhere, but I can't find very many instances of -1000% specifically. In fact, less than I even thought there were. I think -regen could have been toned down in the last couple of years without corresponding patch notes.
I think I'm going to be spending some time this weekend in the architect updating my own knowledge of what even has -regen debuffs and at what strength.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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You know, I was thinking about this and I decided to go looking for -1000% regen debuffs. The first place I looked was on Malta Hercs because I remember when they actually got -regen. Do they still have it? 'Cause I'm not sure they do now.
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CoT Death Mages are, I believe, -1000%.
There's a pretty mean -regen from Longbow Spec Ops grenades, but one won't floor me.
Edit:
Here you go. 30% chance of mag -100, which I actually read as -10,000%.
Here's the Kronos version. That's only mag -1 (-100%), but if you scroll down, the Quad version is mag -100 again.
Death Mages have -500% in Twilight Grasp.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Death Mages have -500% in Twilight Grasp.
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
At the very least some of the IDF Seers have Drain Psyche. It mostly hammers my end, though, not my regen. At least when I'm playing a Regen.
I think Mask of Vitiation has -Regen in it, but honestly, that's the last thing I worry about when that's on me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Anyone notice the price of Numina's and Doctored Wounds set IO's the last few days? I can only imagine what this is doing to the cost the of the PvP healing set IO's.
They floor my regen at 0% regularly. The bosses do it all the time. The LTs do it sometimes.
CoT Death Mages are, I believe, -1000%. There's a pretty mean -regen from Longbow Spec Ops grenades, but one won't floor me. Edit: Here you go. 30% chance of mag -100, which I actually read as -10,000%. Here's the Kronos version. That's only mag -1 (-100%), but if you scroll down, the Quad version is mag -100 again. Death Mages have -500% in Twilight Grasp. |
Now that's very interesting. Many regen debuffs are magnitude based debuffs, which means resistance will lower their strength. But these beasties are duration effects which means regen resistance will lower their *duration*. And actually, given their enormous strength, that's probably the better thing to do.
As to Death Mages, they actually deal about -402.5% debuff. If you're looking at CoD, the important thing to remember is when it comes to critter powers, its actually the *PvP* numbers that matter if there are both, because the critters are attacking players. So the magnitude of the debuff is 11.5 times ranged_res_bool which at level 50 is 0.35 for Bosses (and Lts for that matter). That's -402.5%. *This* debuff is definitely a magnitude debuff, so regen resistance will cut it in half but not affect its duration.
Its actually probably for the best if all regen debuffs under -500% are magnitude and all debuffs over that amount are duration effects. Once you get to ultrahigh debuffs, cutting them in half might not matter as much as getting rid of them quicker. So one of the interesting things we're going to have to do is start paying closer attention to regen debuffs and make sure that the resistance actually matters. If there's a critter out there that does -10000% regen debuff and its a magnitude effect, resistance will have no real effect. Unless its intended to be unresistable, that sort of thing (if it exists) is probably actually as of I21 a bug.
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At the very least some of the IDF Seers have Drain Psyche. It mostly hammers my end, though, not my regen. At least when I'm playing a Regen.
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Battle Orb Mk I
- Plasma Blast Ranged, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Plasma Blast Ranged, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Plasma Spray Ranged Cone, Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Plasma Rifle Burst Ranged, High DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Single Plasma Shot Ranged, Light DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Psionic Dart Ranged, Minor DMG(Psionic), Target -Recharge
- Mental Blast Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Target -Recharge
- Chemical Grenade Ranged (Targeted Location), Superior DoT(Toxic), Foe -Speed, -Rech
- Plasma Full Auto Ranged, Light DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Plasma Rifle Burst Ranged, High DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen
- Drain Psyche PBAoE Foe -Regen, -Recovery; Self +Regen, +Recovery
- Mental Blast Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Target -Recharge
- Psionic Slash Melee, High DMG(Psionic), Target -Recharge
- EMP Rockets Ranged (Targeted AoE), Light DMG(Lethal/Fire), Foe -Regen, -Recovery, -Endurance
- Mental Blast Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Target -Recharge
- Charged Shot Ranged (Targeted AoE), Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All)
- Heavy Particle Burst Ranged Cone, Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All)
- Particle Burst Ranged, Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All)
- Orbital Lance Ranged (Targeted Location), Extreme DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All)
- Particle Burst Ranged, Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All)
Particle Lance Narrow Ranged Cone, Moderate DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All) - Sweeping Laser Ranged Cone, High DMG(Energy), Foe -Regen, -Res(All)
Personally, I think this is why Regen feels gimped in comparison on the higher end iTrials.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Take a peek. The IDF has more than just a few powers that are -Regen, -Recovery and -Recharge.
Battle Orb Mk I
Personally, I think this is why Regen feels gimped in comparison on the higher end iTrials. |
Yep, I remember doing a mission with my sgmate (he was playing his Spines/DA Scrapper and I was on a newly lvl bumped KM/Willpower (or regen forgot which) scrapper).
The mission had all praetorian clockwork in them...all that -regen killed me so fast it wasn't funny. Killed my friend's scrapper pretty easily too (when he normally doesn't die too much/very fast).
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Personally, I think this is why Regen feels gimped in comparison on the higher end iTrials.
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I do get severely recharge debuffed by IDF on occasion, but it's not terribly common compared to some foes. (Knives of Artemis and Arachnos come to mind.) The exception is when you get all WarWorks, all the time, like in the Tin Mage TF. Everyone notices the -recharge big spawns of WarWorks cause. I've never had a problem with severe -recharge from mixed spawns of them, though, like you see on the Lambda or Keyes trials. On occasion a spawn that's heavy with Seers causes problems.
I recently ran some IDF-rich tips on one of my Regens at +4/x6, and -recharge was much less of an issue than -def, high burst damage and -end/-recovery. Fighting IDF reminds me a lot of fighting Arachnos, with the notable debuffs shifted around and more focus on energy damage. I really wouldn't particularly fear them at all if not for Reveal Weakness from the Seers (an autohit defense/DR debuff), Terrorize from the Seer bosses, and the severe end sapping from the Heavy Commanders and their LT bretheren (the guys with the missile-launching backpacks). Their ability of Seer bosses to terrorize gets an honorable mention as something most of my Scrappers deal with poorly.
Edit: Oh, I recall that some of the Praetorean Clockwork actually have some pretty severe regen debuffs in them. We don't meet that many of them outside of the Apex TF and a few missions (like the Halloween tip mission) though.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Why would you if their mitigation is not (supposed to be) relying on Regeneration?
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Similarly, I monitor both defense and base defense on my melees. Base defense goes red under any defense debuff to give me an alert. Then it's easy to glance up and see where my defense is actually sitting and respond appropriately.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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What Werner said. I'm monitoring it. I don't mean "I don't notice the effect of having my regen floored." I mean "I don't see my regen being being floored." And these non-Regens aren't all characters who are all running around defense softcapped to the -regen effects we're discussing, either.
If the IDF can't get the Regen rate of a non-Regen to go red, why would it be particularly troublesome for a Regen with a much higher regen rate?
Note I don't claim it has zero impact. I just don't see it as something that dominates my performance on my actual Regens. I notice the -regen from Malta and CoT Death Mages, on Regens and everyone else. IDF? Not even on my radar of things they do that put me in danger.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
If the IDF can't get the Regen rate of a non-Regen to go red, why would it be particularly troublesome for a Regen with a much higher Regen rate? |
Keep in mind, your build is most likely far better than what the average person may have.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Revive comes with a +Regen, post-regeneration buff in addition to some protection straight after rezzing to get toggles running again? (Totally not been watching Doctor Who for the first idea >.>)
Resiliance offers a small amount of +HP, High Pain Tolerance style? (Say 10%, half of HPT's)
Reconstruction gets the same recharge time as Healing Flames? (40 seconds, down from 60. Would help a lot more at early levels where all Regen has is Fast Healing for regen, till Integration at 16)
n% Heal on Instant Healing activation, 120 or 180 second duration? (Making it a bit more instant, then having the Regen take over for the rest. With 3 level 50 SO's, that brings recharge down to 333.5 seconds according to Mids, Hasten brings it to 245.3 seconds. Still downtime for the power, but gives a bit more time to work with it.)
Also, an insta-recharge on Reconstruction when you use Instant Healing would be stellar ^_^
No +HP on Resiliance, though. Stalkers already bang their head on the HP cap with min-slotted Dull Pain.