/regen got buffed. Cats and dogs live in happiness.

I don't hate Regen. My main is a Regen scrapper and I still play her daily after 7 years. She is great to run around solo. For me personally, the survivability on TFs and iTrials is much higher on my SR scrappers and therefore much more fun for me. Personally, I think Regen needs a whole lot more than this buff, but again that's just me.

Lmao at that last remark. if you wear a helmet please refrain from posting anything further k thx

Heh. Learn to play. My Regens are my go-to characters for the trials.

Edit: I did a Keyes Tuesday this week. During the 2nd reactor, the group ran up, and one of the three other people I was on Skype with asked me how I was soloing one of the spawns that guards the terminals. (I had been doing this to spawns during the whole phase, they just happened to bring the group to one I was soloing then.)

Do I claim Regen is "on par" with Willpower of Shields for top-end performance? Not across the board. In the gutter? Learn to play.

The thing is, NOTHING can dish out 1000DPS nonstop without the player having a means to either kill said target, or have a way to mitigate the damage. So using your own example, its not possible in game.

Plus even your softcapped Willpower or SR wouldn't be able to survive that much DPS being thrown at them, so your example doesn't so much prove your point as it just overkills everything.

And /regen doesn't really want to worry about damage types as much as other powerset. healing is basically a counter to ANY damage type. Its nice to have some defense or resistance (or even both) to the more common damage types, but that Psi blast that just took over half the invulns HP out will do the same to the regen. The difference being, the regen can pop Reconstruction and be back to 100%, every 15 - 20 seconds. that invuln has to rely on Dull Pain, and being able to kill that psi dealing enemy before they can kill it.

Same goes for Energy, Toxic, Negative... The burst healing, and high passive regen you can get on a /regen, especially a brute with 3k HP (accolades, dull pain, etc) means it will take an awful lot to make you fall, especially if your active on your secondary.

Is /regen for everyone? Probably not. But is it gimped because its not a toggle and forget playstyle? No. In order to keep the SR alive against unpositional attacks, or autohit attacks, you need to hit aid self, rebirth destiny, or pop inspirations. That /regen just hits IH and keeps on going.

If you can name anything in that game that will deal out a constant 1,000Damage Per second with the player having no way to kill said target within a reasonable timeframe (say 10 seconds, as even an SR would last that long) then i'll consede the point and not mention it again.

Well, IH, MoG, Inspirations, possibly Shadow Meld, Reconstruction, or Dull Pain.

I saw this suggested some months back, and I thought it was a good idea then, and it's grown on me since. IH lives in a weird place. You need to know you're going to need it before you use it, because the combination of its activation time and the fact that it probably won't save you if your health gets too low before it kicks in means using it reactively is dangerous. If it had a decent heal on it, this could address a big chunk of that in a lot of (but not all) situations. I would be much more likely to use it as a reactive power, because it would be more likely to succeed when used that way. I think that would lead me to use it more often overall, rather than it suffering from a slightly less impressive version of "too awesome to use".

Extremely few things, anyway, and most of them do funky things like deal untyped damage that soft capped defenses can't handle. A large group of strong things can do so, but the number of things that would honor the normal soft cap *and* dish out that much damage is pretty small. But not zero.


*If* you manage to soft cap to the appropriate types and *if* the attackers are conventional attackers that honor that soft cap and *if* you manage to saturate RTTC, then a very strong build scrapper Willpower build *can* reach a 1000 dps survivability line. But the notion that this is something you're likely to see, or that people can easily build, is false. In fact off the top of my head only soft-capped Willpower and Granite tankers fall into the 1000 dps club without resorting to external buffs, and maybe really strongly built Dark Armor tankers.

In fact, even though I believe its theoretically possible, I've never actually sat down and tried to figure out how hard it actually is to build a 1000 dps Willpower scrapper. I think, if I put my mind to it, I could build a 500 dps Regen scrapper not counting IH and MoG, although that would be pushing the limits of what I think I can build.

Don't know what you are talking about. I'm now fully IO'd (no purps) and T4'd out on all Incarnate powers and between alternating MOG, Shadowmeld and Barrier, I'm a god on iTrials. I solo chambers and boxes in Lams, pull Seige and Nightie in BAF's and run around like an idget in Keyes. I have decent (not capped) defenses on top of all this thanks to IO set bonuses and Parry from my primary.

Not enough parenthesis! My Fire/Shield concept build can only handle about 600 DPS, more when One with the Shield is up. It's enough for a RWZ challenge. Oh, wait... you said "if you can't" not "if you don't". Carry on!

Before MoG drops? No. Not the ones that challenge a high end build. Probably some minions, though. As you say, I can at least reduce the damage. Except for AVs and the like.

Again, before MoG drops? There's a big difference between "I can't kill the spawn in 15 seconds" and "I don't have the means to kill the spawn".

Incorrect. 1000 DPS, whether that's critter outgoing or player incoming, is easily survived on a high end build.

The things that dish out megadamage are AVs, crowds of uplevel bosses, giant monsters, gathering phase spawns when you end up solo, various other things. A RWZ challenge probably starts around 1000 DPS. Some of those you can at least reduce the damage below 1000 DPS quickly. Others you can't. A double RWZ challenge will be more than that, and six bosses are likely to last more than 10 seconds. Herding giant monsters will be more than that. Multiple AVs will be more than that. Possibly single monsters or AVs. So the things in the game that dish out megadamage are the very things that you can't put down in ten seconds.

We seriously MUST be defining 1000 DPS builds significantly differently. On paper (though certainly not in practice), my Katana/Dark will be an 8400 DPS build once I get my tier 4s. Against the incarnate soft cap, he's still 6600 DPS. Even with what I think your definition of DPS is, that's still a 3300 DPS Scrapper. How about Regeneration? The highest score from the recent high end Katana/Regen thread was about a 5500 DPS scrapper against the incarnate soft cap, or 2750 or so your way. Now, it doesn't work that way in practice. At those levels of incoming damage, discrete effects are probably MUCH more significant than these sorts of average survivability calculations. So the true survivability will be lower. But 1/2 that? 1/3 that?

In the evidence column, how much DPS do the monster island monsters do? On an earlier iteration of my build with what I calculate as around 6000 DPS survivability, I rounded up 4 and survived for about 10 minutes, then grabbed another two and survived another three or five minutes or something before they finally put me down. I didn't record it. I was just curious. It was my one and only go at it.

Now, my build is pretty extreme. But if I'm even a 3000 DPS Scrapper, 1000 DPS is easy if you know what you're doing.

Edit: Ah, here we go. Actual testing, and this is using the "would have hit you at 0% defense 0% resistance" definition of DPS, so double it for what I'm normally saying (enemy damage output). This is my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes, I think with an I12 build, maybe I13. The incoming damage was negative, which I have less resistance to, so it probably approaches being a 1000 DPS build when weighted by damage type. It would probably be easy to get quite a bit more than this these days, perhaps double or better. I wasn't trying to prove anything about how tough this Scrapper was, just that theory matches observation pretty well for the standard model of mitigation, at least at these damage levels. Oh, and the reason that observation was below theory at 45% defense is that I was unable to round up a big enough spawn to do that much damage. These were fairly low damage mobs, though, so it's easy enough to run into more damage than that in the game as a whole.

Edit 2: WAIT, this test was done WITHOUT USING SIPHON LIFE. I just stood there and took it. My survivability is MUCH higher than these numbers indicate. On the other hand, now that I'm thinking about it, I think I used damage output numbers instead of 0% defense 0% resistance numbers. Eh, whatever. It's still a 1000 DPS build however you define it, and it's easy to be much better than this these days.



Thank you. I'd assumed that was possible, but hadn't done it myself.

It may or may not be gimped, but it certainly isn't very Regeneration-like IMO. Indeed, Regeneration's methodology of constantly actively willing yourself to survive seems more fitting of the name Willpower, whereas Willpower's passive regen is more like what I'd expect from a Regeneration set.

Love seeing that mention of ShadowMeld power all the time

Yeah it's good! Sadly, it concept limiting.

Eh, Willpower only has massive regen when your surrounded by enemies, which gives it more of a 'Willing myself to survive this beating' then regen, which is more like 'Hey, you cut off my arm, tis only a flesh wound (reconstruction) see? new arm.'

In the context of the discussion in this thread, I was referring to the statement that referred to a regen scrapper "taking" 1000 dps, so I was using the "damage taken based on 0% defense and 0% resistance" definition for discussion purposes.

I would need to review the calculations, but just FYI the regeneration *cap* for a Regen scrapper is about 301 h/s, and that means the absolute best case sustainable damage level for a soft-capped regen scrapper is something not too far from about 3010 dps. At this level of regen the total heal from reconstruction and dull pain would not shift the numbers much, and no one with any amount of incarnate powers and recharge buffs ends up with more than this level of health recovery on average: 301 h/s. The way I normally calculate survivability is by intrinsic damage output, so normally I would call this a 6000 dps survivability case. But its unbuildable.

Another data point: I have this Stone build I've been toying with making. It has 90% resistance to s/l/f/c, and is better than soft capped to s/l/f/c/e/n. While EE is up, this build has 67 h/s recovery. I think this is approaching the absolute limits of what you can build for solo, and it is essentially a 6700 dps build by the 0/0 perspective, and 13400 dps build by the intrinsic damage output perspective. I find it difficult to believe that scrapper builds, judged on a similar calculation system, can get anywhere near 10000 dps.

Good question. Probably not as much as you might think. I mean, in relative terms they do a ton of damage compared to most other things in the game, but in terms of the kinds of numbers we're talking about. Lets see, the Lattice is essentially a level 50 monster class critter. It has two attacks: Foot Stomp and Crystal Shards. Foot Stomp does 1.32 melee damage and Crystal Shards does 1.84 ranged damage. The damage mods for a level 50 monster are about 525 ranged and 875 melee. So Foot Stomp does about 1155 damage every 8.1 seconds (at most: critters do not use their powers as fast as possible). Crystal Shards does 966 about every 9 seconds at most. That's a total of 250 dps total emitted (not landed) from the Lattice, maximum. Given the current AI, the true number is probably a little closer to 230 dps.

Doing the same calculations for the Quarry, I get 1155 damage every 8.1 seconds for fault, and 861 damage every 11.83 seconds for hurl boulder, for a total of 215 dps. My guess is all the monster island giant monsters are in the 200-250 dps range. That's emitted, not landed. So to be in the "1000 dps club" as I used the term upstream, you should be able to tank about eight of them.

I think my math is correct there, although its late and I'm going to sleep before triple checking. Anyone who wants to take a swim out to the island can try to double check my figures. But they feel consistent with the monster testing I've done in the past with other builds of mine. I calculate my SR being able to tank about 776 dps of emitted damage without resorting to aid self, but with the caveat that with so much mitigation tied up in defense, random unlucky bursts will make that level of damage not really survivable in the long run. It should look like it could be, except for the unlucky couple of hits in a row. That's kind of what it looks like when I try to tank 2, but 3 tends to unravel a bit faster. That range - about 500 - 700 dps - feels about right for a defensive build that on paper averages about 770 dps of sustainable damage. The fact its coming in a few gigantic bursts is what ultimately causes the true survivability to diverge from the average.

I probably need to re-examine your survival calculations to see where your 6000+ numbers come from. I don't doubt your calculations themselves, but I don't think they can mean the same thing that mine do. Unless I've done something really wrong here, that number implies at least on paper being able to tank the aggro cap of monster island denizens with plenty of room to spare.

Highlighted for emphasis. Those are lending more to your "survivability" than your Regen is.

I had a concept build that used Revive in combination with Self Destruction.

I blew myself up and rezzed while everything was still on it's butt from the KB. It was fun, but ultimately pointless because Self Destruction really doesn't kill anything anymore by the time you get Revive, so I still had to kill the spawn anyway.

Edit:

Not sure where all the /Regen hate is coming from. I still love mine, and he's not nearly as tough as he could be if I were inclined to drop more money into his build.

The biggest thing about the debuff resistance it's getting is the fact big regen debuffs floor your regen through Instant Healing currently. Add 50% debuff resistance to the equation, and now those debuffs won't be able to completely halt your regeneration anymore. Get hit with a big debuff, pop IH and you should be good.

The damage resistance is nice for extending your survivability too. The less damage you take, the less you have to heal back. The less damage you have to heal back, the more time you get to spend dealing damage instead. Especially if you're playing a set that has redraw. Less healing means your attack chain won't be interrupted as frequently. Fewer interruptions = higher practical DPS.

They have to be careful with any buffs they give /Regen. It would not be hard at all to buff it too much and catapult it right back into being overpowered. With as much healing as a /Regen has at it's disposal, any buffs to other forms of mitigation have to be done carefully.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

And how much of the survival contribution for a high-end Willpower build comes from the nonlinear returns of stacking +defense IO bonuses? Sure, the high end of those benefits is possible because of a nice base of +def provided by powers in the Willpower powerset. But if Willpower's in-powerset +defense was nil, like Regen's, would people be saying how Willpower outshines Regen? I rather think not.

So what it comes down to IMO is that Regen's surivability is called "gimp" compared to Willpower almost solely because its powerset contains no +defense to build on with pool powers and IOs.

Basically.

Willpower's ace in the hole is Heightened Senses. With just SOs and no set bonuses, the survivability difference between a well played Willpower and a well played Regen is negligible.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Funny, I had the _EXACT_ same issue that prevented me from going "dark side" for a loooong time (I play an Avenging Knight kind of character). But I finally found a way to work it into my bio and am ever so happy I did.

My character grabbed hold of a cursed relic to destroy it and it temporarily possessed him. He now spends his time trying to atone for that transgression yada yada yada. And while he can't rid himself of the dark power inside him, he has mastered it making it do his bidding and forcing it to help do good, thereby trying to redeem the evil as well as himself.

Great, great power. Highly recommended. The dark blast pre-req, even with just a single slot, is actually pretty decent thanks to T4 Interface Reactive (that DOT kicks off all the time and is decent damage). I use it for pulling or to tag runners I didn't quite kill. For taking only two powers in the PP, I'm very happy. Gave me more slots to throw into primary/secondary as well.

Sure its a huge boost....except when something hits through either one, my Regen powers take care of it. Or when they both down and I have to rely on Parry alone. Layered defenses...some of it pure defense, most of it healing and resistance. On my /SD and /SR toons, once I'm hit, I need a heal. On my /Regen, if I get hit through my defenses, I just Recon and keep moving. Although with IH and Dull Pain, I seldom notice when I get hit....I'm just regenning whatever gets through.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been the last man standing, long past when my total defense brethren are faceplanted. Maybe its just how I play, maybe its how they play, maybe its just what I'm fighting, I don't know. All I know is I was away from the game for years and after reading around here, doing a total toon respec and spending the time to outfit myself with all IO's, this is my primary go-to guy now for just about anything. Not sure where all the hate comes from....I've got a BS/SD with capped DEF (past capped for Melee thanks to Parry) and a DM/SR also, both with full IO builds. They really have issues against Longbow and Arachnos at +4/x8 and while very good at iTrials, still get into situations where they just get turned into swiss cheese and I need external support for help. My BS/Regen guy....no sweat.

I will say this. I have to pay more attention to which powers I activate and which ones to hold in reserve with my /Regen than I do my others. In other words, playing a pure +DEF character is pretty much an autopilot playstyle and recommended for simpler button mashing sessions. But when I want to feel a bit more sense of 'whew!' my /Regen is where the action is.

And so using Aid Self your SR is very likely at 2000+ DPS emitted, 1000+ DPS mitigated/healed. That isn't survivable in practice, but is with a perfect stream of damage and perfect timing.

Oversimplifying, my Katana/Dark regenerates and heals 155 DPS on top of soft-capped defense and 54% weighted damage resistance without Barrier.

155 / ((50%-45%)*(100%-54%)) = 6739 DPS emitted, or 3370 DPS damage mitigated/healed

Here are the full calculations for that and for my final proposed build from the top end Katana/Regen build thread. The builds are in the spreadsheet. You can plug in the enemy to hit at the top so that you can check incarnate trial survivability as well. Explanation for the spreadsheet is in the thread, 5-19-2011 7:01 PM and 5-20-2011 8:29 PM. And as I say there, "I know it's not user friendly. It grew over time. It was never something I sat down and designed for use, and now I'm so used to it that I have no motivation to make it easier. I swear that at work, my code is tight and elegant, my GUI is clean and beautiful, and the users have all the information they need at their fingertips, understood at a glance. I swear that my professional output looks nothing like this. "

And already discussed, these calculations significantly overstate what is achievable in the game at these levels of damage output. Massive damage doesn't come in a stream designed to exactly match my mitigation, and I don't manage to hit Dark Regeneration at 1 hit point time after time after time. But at heart they're your good old "immortality line" () calculations, making them the kind of calculations I think most people mean when they discuss what are essentially survivability numbers like 1000 DPS incoming damage.