The New Look for Circle of Thorns
By
A Musing Mage,
Posted on: 2011-08-08 10:57 in Developers' Corner
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OK, so let me see if I'm keeping track: Purple is bad because it's pink and brown is bad because it's poo. I suppose we can add that greenish-yellow hue to the list because it looks like puke and... What other colours can we think of that always get made fun of?|
Originally Posted by Puppycrusader
Kind-of looks more like the CoT got access to Stone Armor's power customization menu, and
just went with the first colors it gave them.  |
Slighly more seriously, it's a mage in a brown robe. How does that look like poo?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I wouldn't say "poo," specifically, but I think that if they're going for brown and gold they need to a) incorporate some black to break up the merit-vendor-style color monotony (hands, upper arms, and legs would be good places; that would help emphasize the edges of the robe and make it look less like a cluttered mass), and b) pick a darker shade of brown and a duller shade of gold.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, so let me see if I'm keeping track: Purple is bad because it's pink and brown is bad because it's poo. I suppose we can add that greenish-yellow hue to the list because it looks like puke and... What other colours can we think of that always get made fun of?
Slighly more seriously, it's a mage in a brown robe. How does that look like poo? |
Also, that doesn't look like the Madness Mage on page one... wtf? The green and purple one is much better.
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My first thought was cockroaches and a banana peel complete with brown spots. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Slighly more seriously, it's a mage in a brown robe. How does that look like poo?
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Not because of the colors though (at least primarily), but because of those "robes" hanging from their butts. I don't know, they just look a little bit insect-like in those pictures with all that layered stuff and exposed legs.
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I also like the design of the Nemesis Army, not only for its visual style, but also for its contextualization of Nemesis's backstory. Anachronism is a personal statement by the Prussian Prince of Automatons. His army looks out of place because it's invading from (metaphorically) the 19th century.|
Originally Posted by FlashToo
Looking out-of-place is part of what makes Nemesis Nemesis. It reinforces how completely out-there he is, and how heavily brainwashed he's gotten his solders. I LIKE that the Nemesis Army looks as if it were designed by Phil Foglio. Like the Circle's extravagant robes, the Nemesis Army's bold and jarringly anachronistic costumes are what define their visual identity.
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The Circle of Thorn's original design wasn't anachronistic so much as timeless. Were their robes fashioned after the Victorian-era Golden Dawn magik cultists, medieval "Dark Ages" sinister monks and clerics, Mesopotamian mystery religion worshippers, or, metatextually, a lost civilization from pulp thrillers? Likewise, the progress in costumes up the ranks reflected players' understanding of what the CoT was about, as the ordinary (for Paragon City) faceless minions in anonymous robes give way to mages in more ornate but unidentifiable vestments and finally high priests in strange garments last seen in ancient temple bas-reliefs and stele. The original redesign didn't make much effort to capture the CoT's backstory: The minions already showed off the hallmark motifs, and the lieutenants looked more baroque than the original bosses. The devs' revision to include "classic" elements, such as draped garments and concealing hoods and collars, has restored a fair bit of the CoT's sinister arcane presence, although the new bosses are rendered in especially lurid colors ,with more spikes and spines than the others put together.
As this redesign was conceived for primarily stylistic reasons, here's hoping that the art team will at minimum tone down the color palette, if not reconsider how spiky the CoT truly needs to be to appear menacing.
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The costumes look great, the color choices... not so much. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
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Keeping the accent color that 'different' through either contrast or hue or both all the way through all the pieces is the problem.
Normal solutions to 'fix' these is to choose a much less differing hue or brightness level in the highlight color throughout the pieces or on specific pieces; or, to introduce more neutrals.
For the brown and blue (light grey?) CoT, I'd go with a much darker grey.
For the hunter-green and gold CoT, I'd change the gold in the boots, gloves, hat, and breech cloths to a muted brown. There's no need to use two and only two hues.
But on the other hand, we've been told that this patch doesn't represent all the changes they've made. So, AFAWK, these CoT don't exist anymore.
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Considering all the symbolism attached to those colours, which historically have been linked to mysticism/spiritualism and royalty, it's high time they are used. By the way, purple/violet is one of the colours the Church uses too. In fact, its use is mandatory for the Advent, Lent, Liturgies other than Mass on Holy Saturday, the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Sacrament of the Sick. So not as flamboyant as you might think.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Hot pink and violet are not part of the typical high fantasy magician's color scheme, so yes, definitely, "flamboyant pope" rather than ancient lost civilization wizard.
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This. The very glowy green eyes were nice in the caves, but then the neck down is a trainwreck.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Need less of the pattern. It's a tad overkill. Give them some flat space.
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It should also be noted that in nature, colors like bright pink and purple (in animals) are signs of "I am SO ******* poisonous you do not even want to be in the same ZIP CODE, let alone mess with me. Try to eat me, touch me or stand downwind of me and YOU WILL DIE. I don't need drab colors to hide; you need to see me so you can STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY WAY."
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In the first place, the Circle of Thorns is a mystical cult that is the secret front for a lost civilization, not a church, much less "the Church". In the second place, that kind of ecclesiastical regalia is typical for the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, not all denominations.|
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
Considering all the symbolism attached to those colours, which historically have been linked to mysticism/spiritualism and royalty, it's high time they are used. By the way, purple/violet is one of the colours the Church uses too. In fact, its use is mandatory for the Advent, Lent, Liturgies other than Mass on Holy Saturday, the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Sacrament of the Sick. So not as flamboyant as you might think.
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But the fact is, this is a case not of Tyrian Purple here but Power Ranger Pink.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
It should also be noted that in nature, colors like bright pink and purple (in animals) are signs of "I am SO ******* poisonous you do not even want to be in the same ZIP CODE, let alone mess with me.
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Seriously, CoT's motif is "ancient civilization", not "nature worshippers". They're not going to take their sartorial cues from flora and fauna in general, much less the most gaudy representatives. Similarly, it would be a terrible idea for their costumes to be themed around plants that have thorns.
Sorry, but I'm not a fan. I'm really fond of the old CoT, and these look like they come from The Pointy Universe. Overall, the direction of CoH seems to be going away from the classic and towards a more ornate feel.
The one I do rather like is the minion. He looks like a boss to me, and would stand out and look great in the current CoT spawns. Having that as the entry level wizard apprentice instead, and everything else being far more baroque, is an example of what I mean by the shift in direction. If everything is very attention-grabbing, eventually nothing grabs the eye at all.
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This is correct--the current patch that's on the Beta server was there prior to the start of this thread. I would expect the graphics in the first post to be very close, if not exact, to the final version of the design.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But on the other hand, we've been told that this patch doesn't represent all the changes they've made. So, AFAWK, these CoT don't exist anymore.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I never had problems with those other colors. Please attribute complaints to the proper|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, so let me see if I'm keeping track: Purple is bad because it's pink and brown is bad because it's poo. I suppose we can add that greenish-yellow hue to the list because it looks like puke and... What other colours can we think of that always get made fun of?
Slighly more seriously, it's a mage in a brown robe. How does that look like poo? |
people.
I called it poo because I was comparing it to Stone Armor, which has the traditional
"Poo Armor" look going. They all look like they're taking their design cues from it in
that pic. Hence Minister of Poo and The Fecal Flock. Jokes, have to explain, etc.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But on the other hand, we've been told that this patch doesn't represent all the changes they've made. So, AFAWK, these CoT don't exist anymore.
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I never mentioned anything about my masculinity and I would ask you to restrain yourself from assuming that my issues with the CoT redesign are that "omg pink is ****". Grow up. I used pink as an example of an unthreatening color and could have easily said "neon orange" instead.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
blah blah blah blah
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Arguing "well we have other ridiculous factions so why not take all of the decently designed, slightly restrained ones and throw them out the window" is absurd. And no, the original outfits were not that goofy. Embroidered robes and sashes are perfectly respectable things to wear for a wizard, and aside from the boss mages, actual spikes and funny hats are nowhere to be seen. Even there, they are pretty understated as hats and spikes go.
I might also remind you that you don't need to defend the fashion choices of fictional wizards, and that "they're wizards they will wear whatever they damn well please who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't wear" is a completely ridiculous position to take. The new costumes are gaudy and have way, way, way too much detail. They're tacky and look out of place. I don't care what fictional wizards do or do not wear, but this is a game, and in-game, they stick out like a sore thumb both in overall design (LOOK AT ME LOOK AT MY THORNS) and amount of detail (I HAVE 100 THORNS BECAUSE I AM PART OF THE CIRLCE OF THORNS HERE YOU CAN SEE ALL OF MY THORNS).
The new CoT don't even wear robes. Rather, they just have a bunch of starchy clothing sticking out at weird angles. Personally I think it's unusual that apparently every person they possess has the figure of a bodybuilder, because I can't imagine them working on physical fitness over, you know, the arcane arts.
BUT ITS OKAY BECAUSE THEY'RE THE CIRCLE OF THORNS SO THEY SHOULD BE COVERED IN THORNS BECAUSE THE THORNS TELL US THAT THEY ARE THE THORN MAGES AND THORNS SPIKES SPIKES SPIKES OMG SO HARDCORE xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Calm down.
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Looks great..but....isnt it a little odd to have the minions for one of the most common villain groups in the game suddenly look more detailed and spiffy than a lot of bosses/ebs/avs for other groups?
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Werd. This mess is completely over-styled.
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Originally Posted by Gorgar
If everything is very attention-grabbing, eventually nothing grabs the eye at all.
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I just can't figure out if you (and I mean general 'you' not any 'you' in particular) are being stubborn as PANCAKE about the change just to be hipsters and whatnot or just haven't understood yet that when the other mobs get revamped the supposed "strangeness" and "oddity" of the new CoT won't be noticed at all.
You didn't like the 1st design, ok. Devs opened it up for suggestions and altered it. Now, you still don't like it. Apparently, you haven't grasped that the CoT are going to be changed whether you like it or not. And no, they won't get their ugly, old, low detailed look again. It's a remake/revamped. It's not supposed to look the same. Get used to it. In about 6 months, no one will care or remember.
They still die the same and as fast as before.
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To be fair, some of them - neon-green Madness Mages, half-psychedelic Air and Fire Thorn Casters - were pretty lurid already.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
the new bosses are rendered in especially lurid color
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Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
You didn't like the 1st design, ok. Devs opened it up for suggestions and altered it. Now, you still don't like it. Apparently, you haven't grasped that the CoT are going to be changed whether you like it or not. And no, they won't get their ugly, old, low detailed look again. It's a remake/revamped. It's not supposed to look the same. Get used to it. In about 6 months, no one will care or remember.
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Having seen them in-game I've changed my mind... I prefer the old models. The new ones aren't mage-like enough for me.
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I can't help but have this same thought after seeing them in-game. The new designs could look fantastic, and they're close, but just have too much going on, too many extra points and patterns.
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Originally Posted by Machariel
The new costumes are gaudy and have way, way, way too much detail. They're tacky and look out of place. I don't care what fictional wizards do or do not wear, but this is a game, and in-game, they stick out like a sore thumb both in overall design (LOOK AT ME LOOK AT MY THORNS) and amount of detail (I HAVE 100 THORNS BECAUSE I AM PART OF THE CIRLCE OF THORNS HERE YOU CAN SEE ALL OF MY THORNS).
The new CoT don't even wear robes. Rather, they just have a bunch of starchy clothing sticking out at weird angles. Personally I think it's unusual that apparently every person they possess has the figure of a bodybuilder, because I can't imagine them working on physical fitness over, you know, the arcane arts. BUT ITS OKAY BECAUSE THEY'RE THE CIRCLE OF THORNS SO THEY SHOULD BE COVERED IN THORNS BECAUSE THE THORNS TELL US THAT THEY ARE THE THORN MAGES AND THORNS SPIKES SPIKES SPIKES OMG SO HARDCORE xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD |
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Probably nit picky but the gaseous eye-glow they have is no longer that demonic yellow-green colour - it's just green. CHANGE IT BACK!
... please.
And the hoods... and some of the robes... but the bosses... I like the bosses... just make them lessssssss spikey. Don't want them poking each other whilst casting spells.
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They're all just a little too.. "busy" for my tastes. I think they'd look a lot better if the bright colorful bits were confined to shoulders, gloves, belts, boots, and hats, with maybe a bit on the edge of the "kilt" armor, and leave the majority of the chest, arms, and legs a single base color (black or brown). Right now there's just too much going on there, design-wise.
Were I to use those pieces, that's exactly how I'd use them - gloves, boots, belt, and/or shoulders, but not all over.
My personal preference was that instead of investing all the time and effort it must have taken to redo 72 costumes, they would have hired some proofreaders to go through the game and make edits to all the annoying text errors. Or have their programmers work on those QoL issues that so badly need to go away. (Stop sending me to Wincott or Peebles. Stop telling me Architect Studio Manager might have a job for me. Stop sending me to the Hero Corps Rep in Kings freakin' Row when I've already outleveled that zone.)
I sympathize (see other recent posts by me), but the art team is not the writing team is not the coding team etc.
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1 million times better than the first screenshots I saw. Nice work!
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