Is COH: Freedom Putting the Cart Before the Horse?
By
8-J,
Posted on: 2011-08-04 24:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think Arcana is spot on for the most part. I'd be willing to sit down and have a discussion about whether Red Side really is more difficult and whether more difficult means too difficult, but I don't think that's the main point or flaw of redside.
I'm an ardent redside supporter, but even I feel that the content isn't as much about being evil as it is being the lesser of two evils. You're hardly ever making bad things happen and defeating good people for your own advancement, you're beating out people lower on the ladder of depravity than you for fun and profit. It's subtle but pervasive. The main time I feel villainous is on Mayhem missions, and even then it's a transient feeling because there are no lasting effects from the minor chaos I cause.
I love the Rogue Isles and would spend most of my time there if there were more things to do. Maybe between now and Freedom I will take a stab at updating an arc I made, and make a couple others and see if I can pin down my own take on how to feel evil and glory in it.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
Then they failed at it, because on the grand scale of things in the CoH universe that's not very evil at all. Dr Vahz comes close to poisoning the city's water supply and making everyone zombies, and he's a low level contact. The best I can hope for as a high level villain is to make some kids' lives hell until the next longbow submarine makes it in with more donations from Paragon. Or play babysitter to a mad scientist who is lucky if he remembers what socks are for. Or get sucked into watching Television for 12 hours a day. Or go back to Mercy Island to deal with those damned snakes once and for all because the entire Arachnos military can't seem to manage it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe they just wanted to show how vile Villains are? Evil is never cool or fun.
|
Don't get me wrong, those stories each are fun in their own way. But if we're looking at things on an absolute scale of evil acts, there's some real problems.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
I do agree that assuming that people will automatically start off as a villian is faulty logic as well, but it is a seeming good example. And while trying to form teams has always been quiet difficult on red side, there are always at least 5 people on any given isle on Liberty server when I'm running around the Isles getting my missions and badges, and always one asking me to power level them.
|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I think it's faulty logic to assume that most, if not all new players will start off on a villain. Also; I won't pretend to know what other servers are like redside, but I find it hard to believe EVERY server has a dead Rogue Isles.
|
Weapon Alpha/Logan Omega - Scrapper/Stalker - Lvl 50(+3)/23
Dont under estimate a stalker - "What you can't see will kill you ..." SnakeSniper
Thanatos Omega - Stalker - Lvl 50(+1)
Quote:
I play the side that rewards me the most.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The majority of people simply prefer to be good rather than evil - and there's no way to change that.
|
In each case I am punching people with no consequence.
You are a vigilante whether you are a hero or villain, there are no real-world consequences for anything you do.
I play blueside more because I can run all the Phalanx TFs and get over a hundred Merits, while Redside gives me bare bones, which is why I switched my new Controller to redside for Patron powers but am PLing to 41 so I don't have o go
Quote:
|
2. All original villain ATs came pre-nerfed out of the box, the the gimmicky inherrents tacked on to make the pre-nerf not seem so bad. The worst of this was dominators but alot has been done to fix that issue. Right now the biggest issue is stalkers which the devs for some reason will not recognize at this point as needing the most help in the game right now. For some retarded reason they think stalkers have aggro issues but the issue is damage. 5. The lack of additional content to get parity in this game. There are almost twice as many hero tfs than there are villain sfs. That needs to be corrected. Fill in every where there is a level range for the. Basically what needs to happen from here on out until parity is reached is add 2 to 3 villain sfs for ever 1 hero TF they add. Also new villain zones like the hollows, striga and dare I say it the shadow shard. And for the love of gawd stop making so many tfs where villains have to be side kick to the heroes. In only a few comics you would have heroes and villains working together like this, realistically the villains would do their own thing to stop whatever force that is intruding on their territory instead of playing sidekick to the heroes. Just for once make a SF where the heroes are actually the sidekick of the villains where they are having to choose the lesser of two evils instead of the villains doing something for the greater good. . |
Redside has some great stuff, but just not enough zones and contacts to make it desierable for repeat play.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Quote:
The thing is, I agree with the parent that teaming should not be one of the things people need to buy. It's like offering a free-to-play Mario game, but making people buy something before they can jump. You're not going to get very far, and it doesn't matter how "cheap" those mushrooms are, getting your credit card out to pay for something so that you can enjoy your "free-to-play" game (before you've actually played it) is a huge hurdle.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Free players aren't subscribed.
No, I get your point precisely. My point stands. Free players aren't subscribed. The free game is there to encourage people to subscribe, or alternatively go ala carte as a Premium player. To the extent that free accounts and premium accounts are missing features that would encourage them to subscribe, that is because they are missing features that would encourage them to subscribe. We will lose people who say "I would pay to have more if I was given more for free, but since I'm not given enough for free I won't pay for what I want" and frankly, that's a good thing. |
Take a look at these numbers from the Daedalus project:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000430.php
Quote:
| On average, about 60% of female players (N = 312) and 16% of male players (N = 1592) play the game with a real-life romantic partner. |
That's the demographic that needs to be able to team. No they can't send broadcasts, no they can't send tells, and yes for most players that would be a significant barrier to running a team, but not for these players. They already know each other, and as long as they can do a Team "Find Member", or start in the same zone within visual range of each other, they can and should be able to team up.
Edit: And to clarify, the price of the purchase does not matter. Teaming could cost one thin cent, it's the credit card that creates the barrier -- not the cost.
Quote:
I just don't see that happening, EvilRyu. What I hope they do, is that any new Task Forces (or revamped old ones) will be parallel stories (like the new story arcs they're adding with Freedom). Use the same basic narrative, many of the same locations, but tell the story from both sides. What does a hero do to save the day? What does a villain do to (at the very least) take advantage of the chaos, or (hopefully) cause the chaos to begin with?|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
5. The lack of additional content to get parity in this game. There are almost twice as many hero tfs than there are villain sfs. That needs to be corrected. Fill in every where there is a level range for the. Basically what needs to happen from here on out until parity is reached is add 2 to 3 villain sfs for ever 1 hero TF they add.
|
One thing that I think would be very interesting, is if they used the clone tech to place villain players who recently played the twin Strike Force as NPC clone adversaries inside the hero Task Force (probably not the big bad, and maybe not even as a required encounter, but there to fight if the players are up for a challenge). If I run a SF on a villain, and turn around and run it's twin TF on a hero, I could (potentially) fight my other self. Or imagine sending a tell to villain "Heh I just beat you up!" and getting a reply back, "No, I just beat you up!" ... that sort of thing.
As far as difficulty of content? While there are individual examples of broken mob powers Villain side, I think for the most part its much more well balanced than hero side. The dev's seem to agree, because the difficulty curve has continued trending upwards with Praetoria. Praetoria is as much more difficult compared to Villains, as Villains is compared to Heroes.
Personally, I think that Praetoria is too difficult (at least when teamed), but I still think it would be better for the game as a whole to increase the average difficulty of hero side to mach villain content (and fix Praetorian mobs, so that big teams aren't so suicidal).
Hopefully with the revamp to Atlas, the lower level hero game will be rebalanced so that it's more comparable to the new content. They'd be well served, to increase the difficulty of most of the content hero side, not just Atlas Park, IMO. We'll see what happens.
Quote:
Traditionally, we've always gotten exactly zero percent of those people. |
Originally Posted by LostCreation
The thing is, I agree with the parent that teaming should not be one of the things people need to buy. It's like offering a free-to-play Mario game, but making people buy something before they can jump. You're not going to get very far, and it doesn't matter how "cheap" those mushrooms are, getting your credit card out to pay for something so that you can enjoy your "free-to-play" game (before you've actually played it) is a huge hurdle.
Take a look at these numbers from the Daedalus project: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000430.php Assuming similar numbers apply to CoH, that's 60% of your female demographic who will likely simply pass (while their SO goes on to play some more Call of Duty) simply because they, as a couple, cannot play this game together on a couple of free accounts without first breaking out the credit cards. That's the demographic that needs to be able to team. No they can't send broadcasts, no they can't send tells, and yes for most players that would be a significant barrier to running a team, but not for these players. They already know each other, and as long as they can do a Team "Find Member", or start in the same zone within visual range of each other, they can and should be able to team up. Edit: And to clarify, the price of the purchase does not matter. Teaming could cost one thin cent, it's the credit card that creates the barrier -- not the cost. |
And if you're going to toss those numbers around, lets see what they actually mean. Unless MMOs are dominated specifically by lesbians, lets assume that approximately the same proportional amount of couples are same sex female as same sex male and do not alter the distribution by much. For 60% of the female population to roughly equal 16% of the male population means males outnumber females by a ratio of 3.75 to one. Out of every 1000 potential customers, about 210 are female and 790 are male, and of those about 126 males and females play as a couple (again, factoring out same sex couples just for simplicity, not because they don't exist).
That means even if every single one of those couples was comprised of a male that refused to become a premium or VIP player *and* a female with the same property, we'd be losing access to approximately 25% of all possible prospective customers. That's the worst case scenario under these numbers, assuming absolutely *none* of those prospective customers happens to be dating someone that is currently either a VIP player or someone who would be returning to the game as a premium player.
I'm not going to lose sleep over that. That isn't a make-or-break thing. If they allowed free players to send blind invites, I wouldn't complain too much either, but to lose at most 25% of players who would not be paying to play in any capacity for at least a significant amount of time if ever seems rather insignificant.
Keep in mind, City of Heroes Freedom is not out to pad its player numbers with as many free players as possible. It is offering people a chance to play for free, with the full understanding that the totally free experience is significantly limited, and the premium experience will always be less than the VIP subscriber experience. We're offering a chance for players to play the game, try it out, and decide whether they want to pay to gain further access. What we're offering is a lot, but absolutely nobody cares if its not enough for some people. It only has to be enough for enough people, because we're not giving away the store, and we have no need to give away the store. This is an attempt to attract more paying customers. Its not some last gasp attempt to attract every freeloader in town with a free beer sign.
So when you say we're "not going to get very far" are you saying that if we target 75% of all potential subscribers rather than 100%, the entire exercise is not likely to come anywhere near achieving its goals? Or are you saying if we fail to find a way to encourage people who are predisposed to not pay anything at all to play the game then this business model is not likely to succeed?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Have to disagree. Just from personal experience, I've seen more people say they'd rather play the hero than the villain.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
No, thats because heroes get more stuff out of the game thats why. People arent given enough incentive to be villains. Seriously see all the stuff I mentioned earlier and you can understand why more people play blue side. If all that stuff I mentioned was fixed you would not see so many folks on blue side. It wouldnt be the 90% to 10% we have now, it would be closer to say 60% to 40%. While these are totally made up figures thats what it sure feels like in terms of teaming and activity in the global channels. You see stuff for hero tfs all the time but very few people doing group villain stuff.
|
Even if they equaled out the content, and red side has plenty of content, blue side will have more people, due to people generally prefering to play the good guys.
For one, it's a mind set thing. Good guys win. Bad guys lose.
What doesn't help is people played blueside for six issues before red side came about.
Not to mention, red side feels like "I'm a lackey" more than anything else.
Maaaybe, if CoV came out with CoH, then the sides might have played a bit more equal, but I'd still put money on there being more people blue side.
This isn't like the 800lb gorilla of MMOs where neither side is clearly defined good/bad. In CoX there is heroes and villains.
Though all that said, I think the content part is garbage, especially now. More people would be vigilantes if they needed more content (hero can go red side!) and if people really wanted to play villains they could go rogue alignment to play mostly redside while still having access to blue side content.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
It's a normal human reaction - the vast majority of people like to see the good side win, and the evil side lose - heroes are winners, and villains are losers.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Have to disagree. Just from personal experience, I've seen more people say they'd rather play the hero than the villain.
Even if they equaled out the content, and red side has plenty of content, blue side will have more people, due to people generally prefering to play the good guys. For one, it's a mind set thing. Good guys win. Bad guys lose. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As Golden Girl said the 3rd Superhero mmo launched in January of this year. With EQUAL CONTENT and EQUAL PERKS for both it's hero and villanside.
The disparity of of heroes vs villains is 3 to 1 on EVERY server in THAT game.
People naturally prefer being a hero over a villain.
I think there were a GIGANTIC LOAD more people rooting for the Joker to lose then for Batman to lose in the Dark Knight.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I have been in sorta the same situation, from the players side. In that game, the players almost to a man laughed at the dev's and went about their business despite significantly inflated incentives.
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Anecdotaly speaking...
I've experienced a situation where a development team tried through various methods to encourage players to play one faction vs another faction, for the purpose of balance. Now in the situation I've experienced, it was key to the way the game worked, crucial in fact, on a level that does not apply to CoH. What was said about players playing what players want to play usually rings true. Inflated incentive can only do so much to entice people to do something they would otherwise not do. |
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
Quote:
Terrans ftw |
Originally Posted by je_saist
Down with the Terran Cockroaches! Begone with the Conglomeration Anew!
Forever the Vanu will Reign! |
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
Quote:
If people are naturally good and don't want to be villains, why is it necessary for the writing to drive home the point how bad villains are and how you should never, ever enjoy pretending to be one? Can't you just have writing where the villains scheme, backstab and *win*, and then trust that players will feel bad after playing it?
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe they just wanted to show how vile Villains are? Evil is never cool or fun.
|
Character index
I can understand why people would rather be good than villainous. I know there is a running theme in the worlds of superheroes that the good guys beat the villain. I think this accounts for the figures of villains to heroes.
Villain side on Defiant speaking from my experience is not dead, but, I would certainly describe it as "comatose" the main channel for groups etc Defiant Events EU regularly calls out for hero side content. But occasionally the villain side stirs somewhat and might even open its eyes for a time, but they soon shut.
I personally love villain side. I get bored of being a hero all the time saving the day hunting down the bad guys and dispensinv my own brands of rough justice. I look at COH like a comic, and me a writer, all heroes need villains, and I have started making story arcs in AE about my characters and their adventures, so I can have my heroes, fight my villains, and vice versa. They are still WIP's till I figure out the AE system fully, but, its fun.
I feel the same way though about playing villains over and over, I had a week of playing villain side not long ago, and I did level a villain to 45, but by the end of it, I was bored of it. I personally cannot just play one side over the other.
For me, its all about the roleplay element, am I good person in real life, yes, I like to think so. Would I pull an old lady out of the road from a speeding oncoming car if she stepped out at the road at the wrong time? Certainly would. I wouldn't dream of doing anything to hurt somebody for real however I like the idea of being a villain because of the notion, "to truly know good you must also walk amongst evil"
We need villain side, and people need to play it and get immersed in it, even if just to break up monotony.
Quote:
Teaming is my biggest issue redside - practically every villain I've rolled has been solo because (on Defiant) the teams just don't/didn't exist most of the time. I enjoy teaming and teams are easier to find/create blueside.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You see stuff for hero tfs all the time but very few people doing group villain stuff.
|
Personally I've always thought it's a catch-22 that means redside never hits the critical mass of players needed to sustain teams and teaming players.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Quote:
I feel the central, serious fail of villain-side stems from what I can only describe as a profound lack of understanding of what makes a "good villain" on the part of the development team, and this goes back for years. I know Golden Girl would say something to the effect of "Crime doesn't pay |
Originally Posted by je_saist
Believe it or not, playing a "villain" can make players feel incredibly uncomfortable. Just look at the feedback given when the Tips missions were first introduced, and then the Vigilante to Villain tips were added in. Some players where a little more than disturbed over what their avatar did / was doing.
|
" but seriously - why is all of villain-side designed to be purposefully unpleasant? Honest question here.When I play a hero, the game is uplifting, hopeful and positive. I save the day, people who deserve good things have good things happen to them, everyone is happy in the end, and I walk away with a light heart, feeling good about myself. When I play a villain, the game is dirty, rotten and depressing. I ruin lives, defile innocence, crush dreams and break hearts. In the end, everyone is broken, hurt and hollow inside, everything is dark and glum and I walk away feeling physically sick. What the hell, writers? Do you honestly think I play your game to destroy my mood?
What makes a good villain isn't the torture, murder and mutilation, it isn't the depravity and brutality. I didn't choose play a villain because I watched Salo but think it wasn't quite disgusting enough. I didn't choose to play a villain because I'm rotten on the inside who wants to enact his perverse torture fantasies in a medium where I won't go to jail. I DID NOT choose to play a villain for the evulz.
I chose to play a villain because SOME villains are cool. I chose to play a villain because I watched Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go! and thought the Skeleton King was cool in that he kept coming back to life even when he got killed. I chose to play a villain because I watched the Teen Titans cartoon and felt that "Slade" was a powerful, cool villain who was always on the ball. I chose to play a villain because I watched the Swat Kats and felt that Dark Kat's deep, booming voice treatment as THE villain was awesome. I chose to play a villain because, sometimes, villains are cool.
Funny enough, I'd say Dean McArthur is probably the best kind of villainous contact in the entire game - he's a sort of slimy lackey who's working for me, and enthusiastically, and who sends me on missions of more defined by ambition than by evilnessnessness. Playing though Dean's arc and then through Leonard's arc leaves me with a fat grin on my face and a song in my heart. Sure, the kind of satisfaction I get from screwing over Protean is probably not entirely virtuous, but damn if the guy didn't deserve it.
THAT is what the villain experience should have been - uplifting, self-satisfying and more than a bit arrogant. Even the most virtuous among us still succumb to arrogant pride from time to time, and THAT is what the villain-side content should be. If a hero is morally superior to his enemies, a villain is "simply better" than his enemies. In all cases, making the players happy should be the goal. It is expressly because City of Villains is written to depress that you see so few people care to play a villain. Oh, sure, there are a few for whom the game won't be "evil enough" until we can murder civilians and wear their severed heads as hats, but by and large, people won't pay for a game in order to be depressed.
*edit*
Censoring words by replacing them with "PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE" has got to be the worst, least productive idea in forum moderation since my sig was removed because it said "Other games." [censored] was a good way to remove a word but still keep the sentence meaningful. By contrast, randomly PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE inserting PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE into sentences just makes them hard to read.
This is not funny, mods.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Here we go again 
First of all ... my main is a villain! Yes it is... and I still play villains. As is my active SG on Union.
Ofcourse the load on redside is less... but it is not dead at all! At least not on Union.
I do have to say that villains often have it slightly more difficult. First hero I made went so incredibly fast in levelling. Not because of teams.. but because of a large number of QoL features in the Blue side. Red side only wins that in less travelling to contacts.
But the question was that redside would be dead to new F2P players. This is completely BS! Sorry to say so! Remember that with I21 there will be new power sets which will encourage players to also try corrputors and mm's etc with the new sets. Those players will be in the starting zones on red side when I21 hits. They will invite F2P players to their teams.
The new zone updates we heard rumours about will attract badgehunters who will be flying around in both the starting zones.
GR makes it possible to go red and blue side at will. And all VIP players will get GR for free! Including those who didnt bought it yet before. So there will be tips running to go Rogue or Vigilante. Those players will at least look in the other starting zones.
Yes... Red side will still have less people running around... but it will not be dead! And I will do my best to keep F2P players as busy as they can be and feeling very welcome on the redside (on Union). As I know some of you will do for the blue side (Golden Girl).
On the topic of feeling villainous... I hope that we will be getting more and more new ways to actually influence and change the game world and that that tech can then be used for villains. Redside is the best location for doing actions that actually change stuff. And maybe we need some writers amoung the devs that are a little more 'sick' so we get more real evil arcs. Can I play the villain signature arc and actually kill a hero!... pretty pls....
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
Quote:
Established premium/VIP players rolling corruptors and MMs don't need to go to Mercy - sure some will, but just because players may want to roll traditionally-villainous ATs doesn't mean that they'll be in the rogue isles.
|
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
Remember that with I21 there will be new power sets which will encourage players to also try corrputors and mm's etc with the new sets. Those players will be in the starting zones on red side when I21 hits.
|
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Quote:
Hmm... Well then I will have to invite over the search function people from mercy into my teams. More villains for the win! |
Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave
Established premium/VIP players rolling corruptors and MMs don't need to go to Mercy - sure some will, but just because players may want to roll traditionally-villainous ATs doesn't mean that they'll be in the rogue isles.
|
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
No offense, but I have to categorically disagree on every point Golden Girl has ever made in the entirety of this forums existence on the Good v Evil thing.
People play Good not because they believe it is the right/fun thing to do. They play Good because the entirety of the US (I will exclude European players because I just don't live there) is corrupt and "not Good". People get sick and tired of seeing abuse of the system, abuse of themselves, abuse of the world, so they play the side that makes them think there might be something better, even if its just in a comic world.
That is if they even care at all. The reality is HUGE numbers of people play blue side because the rewards are just flat out better. I LOVE Praetoria. I think playing a villain from Praetoria is the best thing since sliced bread. It is a _real_ villainy. It's fantastic. But the second I had an option, I went to blue. Guess why. Better rewards. Easier groups. Better rewards and groups at the same time. The majority of the co-op stuff has crappy rewards. Why do I want to do a co-op for 30some reward merits when I can do a blueside for 50?
Praetoria is great top to bottom. It is _really_ cool. But it ends at 20, there is extremely limited crossfaction interaction, and we have no TF/SF that we can play to generate merits. Why do we have something so awesome and cool, thats hamstrung compared to blueside?
Let's look at the real problem. You will never have people anywhere but blueside as long as the rewards are disjointed. And the advant of Freedom is just making it worse, allowing you to create pretty much anything you want and go straight to blueside to chase rewards. It has nothing to do with Good vrs Evil, and everything to do with Reward vrs Getting Shafted.
-------
Hew in drag baby
Quote:
I've not read all of your posts but I disagree with this one. And I don't automatically agree with GG (mostly I think she talks a lot of rubbish... ).|
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
No offense, but I have to categorically disagree on every point Golden Girl has ever made in the entirety of this forums existence on the Good v Evil thing.
People play Good not because they believe it is the right/fun thing to do. They play Good because the entirety of the US (I will exclude European players because I just don't live there) is corrupt and "not Good". People get sick and tired of seeing abuse of the system, abuse of themselves, abuse of the world, so they play the side that makes them think there might be something better, even if its just in a comic world. |
But as has been seen in other games, well outside of the comic book genre people prefer to play good guys. I think it is partly down to the fact that being nice to people generally makes you feel better about yourself, certainly within the common societal structure. You're trained from an early age to be nice to people. If CoV actually felt evil you would certainly have a larger percentage of people playing through the content because they like to do the things they can't get away with IRL. But CoV never did feel evil -- even Westin Phipps doesn't.
Add to that a lack of overall content (probably because there are less players to develop for) more people will spend less time there.
I played from CoV beta and once seeing the content once there was little need to go back and play again. And more as I'd been playing CoH since EU Launch, there was very little to do that was genuinely new and interesting that I would want to try again with a different character/team/power sets/build/etc. For example I like soloing Frostfire. Lowest I've managed was at level 6 with a mind/rad, but pretty much all my heroes attempt him. There was never anything like that in Villains... Sea Witch didn't count as she was piss easy.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
That is if they even care at all. The reality is HUGE numbers of people play blue side because the rewards are just flat out better. I LOVE Praetoria. I think playing a villain from Praetoria is the best thing since sliced bread. It is a _real_ villainy. It's fantastic. But the second I had an option, I went to blue. Guess why. Better rewards. Easier groups. Better rewards and groups at the same time. The majority of the co-op stuff has crappy rewards. Why do I want to do a co-op for 30some reward merits when I can do a blueside for 50?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Praetoria is great top to bottom. It is _really_ cool. But it ends at 20, there is extremely limited crossfaction interaction, and we have no TF/SF that we can play to generate merits. Why do we have something so awesome and cool, thats hamstrung compared to blueside?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Let's look at the real problem. You will never have people anywhere but blueside as long as the rewards are disjointed. And the advant of Freedom is just making it worse, allowing you to create pretty much anything you want and go straight to blueside to chase rewards. It has nothing to do with Good vrs Evil, and everything to do with Reward vrs Getting Shafted.
|
@OP's original question:
If the fact that trial players cannot team easily is carried over to F2P players then the whole point of Freedom (IMO) is wasted. This is an MMO F2P should showcase this MMO and encourage people to buy points or sign up. If basic functions of any MMO are missing then many won't bother. (Three people I have persuaded to try a trial have all said they gave up the idea because it was impossible to find/make a team.) Teaming is a very basic part of any MMO, preventing it is a seriously bad option.
Yes there needs to be safeguards to prevent abuse but just removing it for F2P is idiotic.
Actually...Im going to pose a bit of an argument.
People who are looking at races, religions and other aspects of MMO's that differentiate between factions of any type have a large rush at first towards being the darker of the options.
I have seen it with almost every game other than CoX, and I believe it's because people are told...Red is Dead, and it is party because of that that red is actually dead/quieter.
The thing is that when freedom becomes available I believe that Red will be more populated than it is now, except on the VIP server in which it will remain the same because of our current mentality.
I expect to see a large flux of people making villains, because frankly villains are often times more complex...or thats just my oppinion.
But I don't agree with Golden Girl at all when she says people prefer playing good over evil. I simply believe people prefer playing with others, and at this point, considdering Blue has been out longer and more people have a large amount of 50's blueside, and red currently is not as populated that people sort of leave red side alone.
Red has generally more compelling storylines. Better contructed arcs and much better dynamics.
Long/Short
VIP server red will be dead.
Every Other server open to Freedom player will have flurishing Red Zones!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Perhaps I should have said, I've experienced from the dev side
. IOW, waaaaaaayy off the mark. |
I had to throw that in there since it is pretty much laughable how they tried to make something non-fun, fun.
Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.
Quote:
It's not just games - the vast majority of people prefer movies, books and comcis where the good side beats the evil side - that's why the movies, books and comics that show this are the most popular and successful.
|
Originally Posted by Nyx
I don't agree with Golden Girl at all when she says people prefer playing good over evil.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork