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I see what you're doing. It's working.
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Originally Posted by TopDoc
Personally I'd say the rewards are game breaking. This is a TF reward roll every 5 minutes, and ANYONE can do it. It's just silly. It's 100 Uncommon Recipes every 10 minutes. It's 2.7 MILLION Inf/minute. I remember when 2.7M Inf/Hour was considered OK.
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Limiting Insp to 4 or 5 at a time just makes the start up costs a bit higher. Tier 4's will still get the job done and as you have pointed out, you are able to get out in 90 seconds now. A team of 2 would be able to do this in 60 seconds even with a limit on Insp stacking. Sure it costs a bit more but the returns are still stellar.|
Originally Posted by TopDoc
Limit Inspirations to 4 or 5 at a time each, make the Brute damage cap lower at lower levels like other ATs, scale the Fury bonus by level somehow, cancel Inspirations when zoning, only allow a single ambush to be triggered per boss or object, probably more stuff. But no matter what they do, people who want the best rewards will find an efficient way to get them. There will always be a big difference between what the devs design as a fun way to play the game and attract players, and what the min/maxers will do to get the best rewards.
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The Brute damage cap is most likely meant to scale with level. I really don't see why they would be the only exception.
The idea of scaling Fury with level I find distasteful. No other AT has it's inherent treated in this manner. Yes defenders have their self buff from Vigilance scale but team buff portion is constant from level 1. As much as the game has moved forward in making it faster to get out of the low level ghetto I would hate to see it take a step back with a move like this.
As for making inspirations drop on zoning. I think that would most likely stop this form of farming but I doubt the devs can find a way to code it. For how many years have we been double stacking shields and buffs due to the game not being able to tell we are already buffed upon zoning? Even the Health and End procs have this issue.
I can't say I like the idea of limiting ambushes. Mass carnage is part of what makes being a superhero fun. If anything removing the Agro cap from ambush spawns so that your under fire from all the enemies would be a balance. As fast as the spawns drop in these missions there are still quite a few times when your over the agro cap and the mobs are awaiting their turn to get in on the fight.
Global: @Kelig
I don't want to end up eating crow, but if these ambush maps have been allowed to exist for this long, I don't see them getting around to changing it now. Things that everybody can exploit usually get fixed. These types of maps require highly specific conditions for the player to meet to even make it worthwhile.
Something like the monkey farm or all-boss farms were wide-spread exploits that I would consider game-breaking.
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Then limit it to 1. Suddenly T3's are useful.|
Originally Posted by joebartender
Limiting Insp to 4 or 5 at a time just makes the start up costs a bit higher. Tier 4's will still get the job done and as you have pointed out, you are able to get out in 90 seconds now. A team of 2 would be able to do this in 60 seconds even with a limit on Insp stacking. Sure it costs a bit more but the returns are still stellar.
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| The Brute damage cap is most likely meant to scale with level. I really don't see why they would be the only exception. |
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| The idea of scaling Fury with level I find distasteful. No other AT has it's inherent treated in this manner. Yes defenders have their self buff from Vigilance scale but team buff portion is constant from level 1. As much as the game has moved forward in making it faster to get out of the low level ghetto I would hate to see it take a step back with a move like this. |
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| As for making inspirations drop on zoning. I think that would most likely stop this form of farming but I doubt the devs can find a way to code it. For how many years have we been double stacking shields and buffs due to the game not being able to tell we are already buffed upon zoning? Even the Health and End procs have this issue. |
Errgh.... Zone bugs are awful. I'd rather see insp's limited to one.
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| I can't say I like the idea of limiting ambushes. Mass carnage is part of what makes being a superhero fun. If anything removing the Agro cap from ambush spawns so that your under fire from all the enemies would be a balance. As fast as the spawns drop in these missions there are still quite a few times when your over the agro cap and the mobs are awaiting their turn to get in on the fight. |
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The Blaster inherent power somewhat scales with level. You get a bonus to damage based on attacking, but you can't maintain a decent attack chain at low levels. Granted it depends on the power sets, and you can get a full attack chain after a bit. Blasters can use level 1 attacks while mezzed, but few low level mobs mezz. Tanker inherent power scales with level. I don't think Gauntlet does anything before level 6 or 10 or something. It takes Doms a long time to build up Domination at low levels, due to a light attack chain and the fact that it decays. Brutes usually have the same problem with Fury, plus they usually can't take a lot of incoming damage at low levels, but all that changes in an ambush farm when softcapped. A level 1 Brute with +180% Damage from Fury is way overpowered. Add in Inspirations and it's silly. It's enough to 1-shot 10 bosses with a single PBAoE attack. It would be much more reasonable to cap it at say 50+5*level. A 55% Damage bonus at level 1 is very nice, but not really overpowered. At level 30 and above you get the full Fury bonus. Play with the numbers, but pick a cap that avoids silly things like this farm.|
Originally Posted by joebartender
The idea of scaling Fury with level I find distasteful. No other AT has it's inherent treated in this manner. Yes defenders have their self buff from Vigilance scale but team buff portion is constant from level 1. As much as the game has moved forward in making it faster to get out of the low level ghetto I would hate to see it take a step back with a move like this.
As for making inspirations drop on zoning. I think that would most likely stop this form of farming but I doubt the devs can find a way to code it. For how many years have we been double stacking shields and buffs due to the game not being able to tell we are already buffed upon zoning? Even the Health and End procs have this issue. I can't say I like the idea of limiting ambushes. Mass carnage is part of what makes being a superhero fun. If anything removing the Agro cap from ambush spawns so that your under fire from all the enemies would be a balance. As fast as the spawns drop in these missions there are still quite a few times when your over the agro cap and the mobs are awaiting their turn to get in on the fight. |
I think the Devs can drop Inspirations on zoning if they want to. I mentioned in the OP that Power Surge simply goes away when exiting the mission. The exact same thing happens to Inspirations. If you forget to hit Hasten before you enter and decide to leave to do so, you'll see all of your Inspirations are gone. I suspect the same applies to EVERY timed buff when leaving an AE mission, to avoid exploits involving getting massively buffed inside AE by custom allies and then stomping mobs outside. That same sort of power removal could likely be done just for Inspirations on every zoning. The double stacking of buffs when zoning happens because the first set of buffs are associated with an entity (object number) in the previous zone. You and your teammates get new numbers when you enter a zone, so the buffs come from a different source. There are a number of things they could do to avoid double stacking buffs, but it isn't really worth their time to fix it. It generally isn't that big of an exploit.
Massive ambushes don't really make sense. If 35 mobs can't take out a single Super, why send another 105? Sure it makes you feel Super to be able to take that, but you're not supposed to be THAT Super. You're throwing game balance out the window if you WANT agro from 140 mobs. What's worse is some characters can TAKE agro from 140 mobs. It would take another Global Defense Nerf to fix that, or perhaps applying Diminishing Returns to PvE like it applies to PvP. Till that happens, agro caps are a reasonable solution for most PvE situations. But for AE, ambushes should be further restricted.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I tired it out tonight and got to level 26 in a couple hours. I didn't have either a Claws or an /Elec so its perfect for me to put these together. I started dying more in the 20's, but I think that is a result of me paying less attention and needing to make the inspiration binds.
Like TopDoc said, I don't see it dethroning my SS/Fire/mu as my main farmer at 50, but there is no arguing with the self leveling speed. It's astounding what you can do for 0 investment.
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But as I've explained, ANYONE can use my farm to generate massive amounts of tickets. You don't need a level 50 SS/Fire Brute loaded with expensive bling. You can do it with a level 8 char with no Enhancements at all. There's a chance this could become as widespread as the Great Monkey Burn. Unlikely since it requires a bit more work to stay alive, and the rewards are lower. But you never know.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I don't want to end up eating crow, but if these ambush maps have been allowed to exist for this long, I don't see them getting around to changing it now. Things that everybody can exploit usually get fixed. These types of maps require highly specific conditions for the player to meet to even make it worthwhile.
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Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Quote:
Yep, 20-25 is a bit of a dry spell. You may not have the Empowerment buff yet if you haven't earned enough Prestige. The big Inspirations from level dings have slowed down. And you don't yet have enough Inspiration slots to do much combining when you only have 10. But at 25 you should have enough Prestige to get an Empowerment Station in a small Workshop, the 15 slot Inspiration tray gives you enough room to combine most Inspiration drops into reds, and you're less likely to lose Inspirations from the tray being full.
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I tired it out tonight and got to level 26 in a couple hours. I didn't have either a Claws or an /Elec so its perfect for me to put these together. I started dying more in the 20's, but I think that is a result of me paying less attention and needing to make the inspiration binds.
Like TopDoc said, I don't see it dethroning my SS/Fire/mu as my main farmer at 50, but there is no arguing with the self leveling speed. It's astounding what you can do for 0 investment. |
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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Yeah, that pretty much covers everything I'd come up with, and then some. Guess I'll just go back to self-PLing |
Originally Posted by TopDoc
Limit Inspirations to 4 or 5 at a time each, make the Brute damage cap lower at lower levels like other ATs, scale the Fury bonus by level somehow, cancel Inspirations when zoning, only allow a single ambush to be triggered per boss or object, probably more stuff. But no matter what they do, people who want the best rewards will find an efficient way to get them. There will always be a big difference between what the devs design as a fun way to play the game and attract players, and what the min/maxers will do to get the best rewards.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Easy to fix. Change it so that Fury generates one percent of damage per point, instead of two, at all levels.
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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Amazing!
I had someone show me a Elec/Fire/Stone brute that he thought was godly...but this is amazing...
Thank you
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
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Should be pointed out - and not to detract from this guide in any way - that you don't need a blinged out SS/FA to farm using the 'old' fashioned fire farm. Of course it helps, but then so do damage procs in Lightning Field.|
Originally Posted by TopDoc
But as I've explained, ANYONE can use my farm to generate massive amounts of tickets. You don't need a level 50 SS/Fire Brute loaded with expensive bling. You can do it with a level 8 char with no Enhancements at all. There's a chance this could become as widespread as the Great Monkey Burn. Unlikely since it requires a bit more work to stay alive, and the rewards are lower. But you never know.
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My own SS/FA while by no means a perfect farmer is functionally complete with commons and some cheaper +recharge bonus sets. I'm following your guide here to PL through level pacting.
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Very clever.|
Originally Posted by TopDoc
Limit Inspirations to 4 or 5 at a time each, make the Brute damage cap lower at lower levels like other ATs, scale the Fury bonus by level somehow, cancel Inspirations when zoning, only allow a single ambush to be triggered per boss or object, probably more stuff. But no matter what they do, people who want the best rewards will find an efficient way to get them. There will always be a big difference between what the devs design as a fun way to play the game and attract players, and what the min/maxers will do to get the best rewards.
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I wonder if this will work
*Goes back to farming with his plant Dom*
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Took a quick video of a run at level 42.
Can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kafDC4xNbAo
If you notice Hasten runs out on the last 5 mobs, meaning the run took 120 seconds or just about. Seems about right for time considdering I only got a 50 ticket bonus from clicking the item, meaning I killed a lot more than needed to hit the ticket cap.
Let me get this straight. By being exemp'd to level 1 and fighting level 2 mobs, you are able to earn enough exp to level up to 50 in 5 hours of farming? So they game isn't giving you level 2 mob experience -- it's giving you scaled +1 mob (to your level) as you level up?
It has been so since the revamp of the sidekick/exemplar system, because they didn't want to penalize people playing together with lower level people.
Tried this out, TD. I'm still not that good a player, so I've died at least once every mission. In 2 hours of play, I hit L21. The only way I can survive is eating insp as they show up, and buffing with +def and +res before I start. Once I level up a single time, I'm fine, but surviving until I'm high on +SMASH and have those level-up buffs on is tough for me. Still, I'm getting the hang of it, and since I don't have a /Elec character and my only claws/ is a regen scrapper, I'm fine trying this out. Doubt I'll do this to get a lot of 50s, but it's fun for a little mindless play time occasionally.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
Catgirl on Virtue made 
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
I have noticed that I'm suddenly not the only one spamming inspirations in Mercy on Virtue
On my second one now, this time a claws/fire that I've level pacted to a character on my other account so see how slow it is. The lower levels are a bit more painful with the low insp slots and less frequent level insps.
In my 20's now and still haven't died so I guess it doesn't really have much of an impact.
Also it's funny how farm posts always bring out the old timers. Look at how many 2004-2005 regged people in this thread
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Well, I have little doubt the Devs will look at it. After all, they changed xp on |
Originally Posted by TopDoc
Personally I'd say the rewards are game breaking. This is a TF reward roll
every 5 minutes, and ANYONE can do it. It's just silly. It's 100 Uncommon Recipes every 10 minutes. It's 2.7 MILLION Inf/minute. I remember when 2.7M Inf/Hour was considered OK. |
Family and Freaks, put in aggro caps, and quashed any number of things in AE
(many of which were real bugs/exploits), so I'm sure this, and lowbie farming
in general, will get some review. The Devs have set several precedents with
this sort of activity in the past.
There's no telling, with Freedom coming soon, *when* they'll actually look at it,
or how they'll deal with it, but I'm certain they will (sorry Neogumbercules).
What I find most interesting though is the leveraging of game mechanics that
make it possible.
All of the attributes that make this work are either common, or desirable things
the Devs deliberately added:
* FotM Build: Those have existed (for various things) since Day 1
* Selectively choosing mobs to fight? Also true from Day 1
* Finding a map with said mob-type -- yep, all the time.
* Beginner's Luck: Devs deliberately added this for the lowbie game
* Smooth & Easier Leveling Curve: Devs put in a lot of time on this too
* HP/XP Scaling at Low Level: Also intentional from Devs.
The key though is AE provides the "Perfect Storm" in the sense that you can
optimize ALL of these factors at once through a carefully thought out and well
designed strategy like this.
That typically isn't possible in the standard content. The latter 3 qualities you
couldn't really do much with since you level out of them so quickly, and the
first three really don't apply much until L50 (or if you intentionally level cap a
toon) with a slotted out build.
This approach really boosts efficiency of all of these things to maximum in AE.
It'll be interesting to see how the devs deal with it, as it isn't really an "exploit"
at all, in the classic sense, but rather a distillation and purification of very simple
min-maxing techniques into one ultra-efficient process.
Regards,
4
PS> I also ran this myself last night and got to L18 in under an hour (47 mins).
I don't know if that's "game breaking", but it's easily in a category that will provoke
scrutiny imho. Mind you, I *did* have a seriously fun hour playing with it.
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
TopDoc How long is a run taking you unslotted with just hasten as your preclick power before zoning in? I'm talking no purples, nothing but like a L10 brute.
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My best guess, is they will turn off xp for ambush mobs.
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Originally Posted by TopDoc
Limit Inspirations to 4 or 5 at a time each, make the Brute damage cap lower at lower levels like other ATs, scale the Fury bonus by level somehow, cancel Inspirations when zoning, only allow a single ambush to be triggered per boss or object, probably more stuff. But no matter what they do, people who want the best rewards will find an efficient way to get them. There will always be a big difference between what the devs design as a fun way to play the game and attract players, and what the min/maxers will do to get the best rewards.
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Global is @honcho
On Champion
Living Coal LV 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Nature Boy LV 41 Earth/Kin Cont
Great Wacko LV 34 Robot/FF MM
plus many alts
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We talking with or without +rech from empowerment station?|
Originally Posted by Djeannie
TopDoc How long is a run taking you unslotted with just hasten as your preclick power before zoning in? I'm talking no purples, nothing but like a L10 brute.
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Because if it is with that, it's 120ish seconds to clear the two spawns. For optimal xp/time it's a bit shorter as you probably want to stop when there is no more bosses left.
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Ah forgot about the empowerment spawn. I wanted to compare raw unboosted except for hasten times from claws vs db. So without the empowerment spawn.|
Originally Posted by Rinanir
We talking with or without +rech from empowerment station?
Because if it is with that, it's 120ish seconds to clear the two spawns. For optimal xp/time it's a bit shorter as you probably want to stop when there is no more bosses left. |
I was hitting about 2min 30 seconds to 3 min and that just seemed slow to me...with the occasional death here and there as I'd suddenly get spiked for some odd reason.
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Quote:
Which would be rather silly. All the danger with none of the reward eh? Not a good direction to take the game in really. Risk vs Reward is a design factor.|
Originally Posted by Honcho
My best guess, is they will turn off xp for ambush mobs.
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I'd think they'd do what TopDoc suggested and probably kill insp on zoning, even if that was only IN the AE building as they can control stuff like that in locations. They prevent that kind of thing with confusion and entering/exiting pvp zones. So maybe they'd do something like that in AE if it was a big deal to them.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304