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As good excuse as any to dig up "developer intent":|
Originally Posted by GI Justice
Everyone, stop replying to Johnny. It'll never be enough. Regardless of what you say, facts presented, of quoted developer intent
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets): 1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly. 2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage. 3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP. So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done. 1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out.... 2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals. |
And, IMO, problems 2 and 3 still exist and are frankly even worse since the advent of Brutes (which only came to exist to steal and occupy a mechanic and role intended for Tankers).
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I do agree with this, however this isn't a good argument. Do I have to tell you why?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
As long as Brutes and Scrappers are buffed, healed a protected by their team and keep their same damage, and as long as their survivability is more than enough to survive solo and continue doing superior damage, there's no reason to play a Tanker ever again.
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An AT shouldn't be balanced around teaming with other AT's. Using your argument I could say why play a Brute or Scrapper when you can have a full team of Corruptors?
Also, you shouldn't have to be told this, but the AT's aren't balanced around IO's either.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Wait, just exactly HOW old is that quote? And by exactly which member of the development team?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Their intent for Tankers was different than the mess Tankers are now.
And, IMO, problems 2 and 3 still exist and are frankly even worse since the advent of Brutes (which only came to exist to steal and occupy a mechanic and role intended for Tankers). |
Put my hat in the ring labelled 'Tankers are fine as they are, and don't need the sort of alterations that JB's been going on about for years now'.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Put it this way, it predates punchvoke and taunt being an AOE
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Why can't you just be happy they made Brutes to fill that role instead? You already received your wish and got the AT you desire. Why complain about a different AT? |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
As good excuse as any to dig up "developer intent":
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I do agree that all the AT descriptions should be looked at though. Since they are fully integrating the alignment system into the character creation experience, all of them likely need to be updated.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Personally, I was assuming issue 1 or 2 so that there'd been time for the referenced 'issues facing tankers' to surface in a live environment, but I wasn't around back then. It also has the 'feel' of a Statesman posting, but I could be wrong on that and I may just be picking up on the older style of the post.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Put it this way, it predates punchvoke and taunt being an AOE
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Ah, there we go, thank you paragonwiki. Taunt went AoE in Issue 3...
OK, so that means that JB's quote is ancient, decrepit, outdated, from a different development studio (and most likely a developer who no longer is remotely connected to the game, but I may be wrong on that), and can thus be utterly ignored. Just so I know where I stand
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Tankers are obviously obsolete, and there's no reason to make them. That's why nobody plays them.
Wait, what? People do play them, and some people even enjoy them more than the other melee archetypes?
Hmmm.
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SHOULD WE ALSO STATE FOR CONTROLLER DESCRIPTION "if built just right with io's and a well incoporated incarnate powers, this AT who at first seems weak can out perform all other AT's in every aspect of the game"?
I dont really know what to say
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Electric Armour and the 1st 20 levels
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click here for You want the best TANK!? I'll let you decicde!
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Pretty much.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
That's quite a few qualifiers to be throwing around. Those situations are few and far between, and any AT can be replaced in those situations. So please, find a new dead horse. This one's just pink pulp now.
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JB's entire premise exists in the land of make believe, where everyone is IOd to the gills, L50+3 Incarnate shifted and perma HP capped and perma resistance, defense and regen capped...and he's worried about Tankers vs. other melees of all things.
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Originally Posted by GI Justice
Everyone, stop replying to Johnny. It'll never be enough. Regardless of what you say, facts presented, of quoted developer intent, OR your personal opinions, you will never convince him of anything other than what has been decreed as law within his own, delicate sensibilities.
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I post, so other posters can see the massive flaws in his argument - although its probably something easily recognized.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Their intent for Tankers was different than the mess Tankers are now.
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"Their Intent" changed when they decided to create villain ATs and severely nerfed all of the Tanker mitigation levels, reducing base DEF, RES and HP by 25% to create the AT that is Brutes who got the Fury mechanic.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why can't you just be happy they made Brutes to fill that role instead? You already received your wish and got the AT you desire. Why complain about a different AT?
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JB's consistent intent is to make Tankers clearly and easily superior to every other melee AT in the entire game.
He never addresses the mitigation disparity, and only focuses on this magic situation where Brutes and Scrappers are completely perma-HP capped, perma RES capped and perma DEF capped.
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I disagree. I think his intent is that he wants to play brutes, but he just doesn't realize it (actually, I am pretty sure he does play brutes, so he likely gets it on some level).|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
JB's consistent intent is to make Tankers clearly and easily superior to every other melee AT in the entire game.
He never addresses the mitigation disparity, and only focuses on this magic situation where Brutes and Scrappers are completely perma-HP capped, perma RES capped and perma DEF capped. |
He frequently says he does not value the extra mitigation tankers get.
He frequently says the damage level of brutes is more iconic of the type of comic characters he prefers.
I say he should realize the Brute AT is made for him. Just because he does not value the way the tanker AT is created does not mean it is valueless, since many others like tankers as they are.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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He does play Brutes, he's even mentioned as much from the thread last week.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. I think his intent is that he wants to play brutes, but he just doesn't realize it (actually, I am pretty sure he does play brutes, so he likely gets it on some level).
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
He frequently says he does not value the extra mitigation tankers get.
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I think he secretly values it, and simply wants Tankers to do more damage on top of it.
Dang it im out of pop corn
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<Air Drops popcorn on LSK's house>|
Originally Posted by LSK
Dang it im out of pop corn
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There ya go!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Ah popcorn. The preferred way to eat copious amounts of butter and salt.
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. . .
OH! OH. Oh my. I thought this was a serious thread.
Phew, good. I can laugh and not feel bad anymore.
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well... I think Johnny is serious. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
. . .
OH! OH. Oh my. I thought this was a serious thread. Phew, good. I can laugh and not feel bad anymore. |
I'm not of the opinion that the rest of us posters are capable of taking Johnny's opinion in a serious manner.
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Brutes shouldn't exist.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Brutes
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And until the devs make suitable reparations for throwing Tankers under the bus, I'm not going to stop of my own volition.
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Something definition of insanity something something.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And until the devs make suitable reparations for throwing Tankers under the bus, I'm not going to stop of my own volition.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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"I gotsta know..." Why should we not have brutes? |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Brutes shouldn't exist.
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They aren't as durable as a tanker in practice usually. They don't even, practically, do as much damage as a scrapper unless the fury bar is filled up, and that's hard to do.
IMO from recent experience, a Brute nicely plugs the divide between Tanker and Scrapper. Much like Corruptors do between blaster and Defender.
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It's always sad when someone decides to go off their meds.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Brutes shouldn't exist.
And until the devs make suitable reparations for throwing Tankers under the bus, I'm not going to stop of my own volition. . |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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You can't stop of your own volition. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Brutes shouldn't exist.
And until the devs make suitable reparations for throwing Tankers under the bus, I'm not going to stop of my own volition. |
I have a feeling this is pathological for you.
I already told you last week, in that other thread.
I don't want you to stop posting it, because your ideas seem more ludicrous by the day.
Yes, those poor poor Tankers got thrown under the bus - with their significantly higher base DEF, base RES and base HP numbers (remember, Brutes have all of those at 25% less than the Tanker versions).
For the rest of you, this statement above is the part that JB is unable to deal with without resorting to his land of endless buffs where everyone is perma-capped DEF, RES, HP & DAM line of reasoning.
Johnny, why do you have to play a tanker specifically? Why are brutes not sufficient if your ideal tanker mechanic is the exact mechanic that brutes have right now? They both even have grey icons! Just play a brute and proceed to tank stuff as usual and enjoy yourself more. You don't even have to start as a villain anymore.
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Wow. I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt despite your reputation, but I think this post captures your madness at its height. You do realize that this is just a game, right? You do realize that you are not actually a tanker, right? I think you are taking this way too seriously.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Brutes shouldn't exist.
And until the devs make suitable reparations for throwing Tankers under the bus, I'm not going to stop of my own volition. . |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Because he doesn't actually want to give up the mitigation advantage that Tankers have, he likes to say that its irrelevant to make his whole argument sound better.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Johnny, why do you have to play a tanker specifically? Why are brutes not sufficient if your ideal tanker mechanic is the exact mechanic that brutes have right now?
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His ultimate goal, is to basically have a higher Damage cap as well as a Fury like mechanic on Tankers while keeping their current mitigation numbers.
If he ever gets his wish, well, then we can all reroll our Scrappers and Brutes as Tankers and call it a day.
Everyone, stop replying to Johnny. It'll never be enough. Regardless of what you say, facts presented, of quoted developer intent, OR your personal opinions, you will never convince him of anything other than what has been decreed as law within his own, delicate sensibilities.
I actually know of another guy over twenty, IRL, who acts in this fashion. What's his name, you ask? Johnny. Irony.