Discussion: The Intrepid Informer: Power Set Proliferation
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Alef_infinity,
Posted on: 2011-07-06 10:45 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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From the transcript/summary of yesterday's Ustream chat:|
Originally Posted by Simian_Stalker
Does this mean we will finally / eventually get MA for a Blaster secondary?
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Originally Posted by Von Krieger
Almost everything has proliferated. Blasters are 'done,' at least in the normal sense. Martial Arts for blasters is something they could do with existing animations.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm somewhat leery of Energy Aura getting a taunt aura - I kind of liked *not* having one on that brute set - but we'll see what it does with the other changes.
And I mentioned elsewhere having one power I could see tossing the cottage rule out for for outright replacement. And yes, that was Repulse for Stalkers. That *never* made sense to me to have - it didn't really fit on a melee AT, IMHO. |
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
This concerns me a heckuva lot. Mez protection with a taunt is unprecedented and I hope it gets reevaluated. Stealthing to mission objectives is a preferred playstyle by many in the game today, myself included.
I get the sense the above quote was made by someone that hasn't actually stealthed by the previously mentioned mobs that see through stealth. Here's the reality - if I'm stealthing to mission objectives and I'm in a pve invis state, then I can go by Nems, Rikti, Rularuu (but not KoA) and just get a few potshots by specific mobs that can see me, very survivable. If I become unstealthy, then all of those mobs will fire. Against Rularuu, that's extremely dangerous. Furthermore, if you're only stealthed (not invis), which is what Energy Cloak provides, you will attract far more fire while stealthing with a taunt aura than without. So turn mez protection off? No good when you're simply stealthed, as stealthing in crowded spaces will draw fire. Most all meleers can take this fire, no problem, but that's because they have their mez shield on. Having no mez shield in this scenario is deadly. I really, really want to emphasize that a taunt in a mez protection is a very very bad idea. On the other hand, I don't want to just be a complainer, I like all the other things I've seen for i21, especially for Energy Aura and Poison. But back to complaining - please don't include taunt in Entropy Shield. |
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Originally Posted by Sir_Zane
Actually, I hate the addition of the taunt aura to EA brutes. It completely destroys the stealth brute play-style.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my concerns (which I suspect will be alleviated when we see all the patch notes and find out that the mez protection has been moved somewhere like Power Shield), but having to toggle on/off mez protection while being stealthy is a fundamental change in character (micro)management. Is it a big change? No. But it's also one that wouldn't make much sense to me, were it implemented.
If you didn't do the math from my earlier post, I have about 2000 hours on my /EA brute. When I say that putting the taunt aura into the mez protection doesn't make much sense to me, that's both from a lay game-design perspective ("Why would that be done?") and the perspective of a long-term player of the set ("Why should I need to toggle on/off mez protection on a melee character that's never had to worry about being mezzed while stealthing missions before?"). Like I said, though, this would make so little sense to combine that I'm guessing the mez protection got moved to another toggle and we just haven't been told about it yet. The original posting did say something about summarizing, rather than providing the detailed patch notes. |
They KNOW that there are people that love the 'Stelth Broot!' style of playing. They KNOW that there would be an outcry if this playstyle, one that really only works with the powerset being changed, were to be negated. Chances are the taunt Does Not Function when the stealth power is active.
The note says nothing about mez protection being removed either, so look at this as an added benefit: If your taunt aura is active, you know you're protected. Should you have a blue bar crash for some reason, you won't have to worry about 'will my taunt turn off before my mez protection, or will my mez get detoggled while I'm still taunting?' since they're the same power. This is a GOOD thing.
For some reason, I feel dirty being the voice of reason. Why doesn't anyone else think that the devs might actually know what they're doing?
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Hi, I'm hazy, you must be new here. :P
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Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Why doesn't anyone else think that the devs might actually know what they're doing?
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/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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Well, for starters, there is a difference between "Hidden" and stealth... If I'm not mistaken, Hide actually applies a status to you, and the suppression of powers is actually tied to whether or not that status is applied to you currently.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
You know, I hate to have to say this to people that have been playing longer than I have but...the devs have the tech to handle this, remember? They made it for Stalkers, it's called 'Suppress when Hidden.'
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So, following your suggestion, they either have to add a "Hidden" status to Energy Cloak--which may be an option, or it may have auto-critting baked into the status at well and not be an option--or they have to create a new "Stealthed" status. And then they'd have to give the Stealthed status to all other stealth powers... and should it be given by using a Stealth IO? Should it suppress other powersets' toggles? You'd have people complaining either way about that.
So, in all fairness, it might not be as cut-and-dry as you're assuming it is. Or maybe it is, and they've got that all taken care of already.
We don't know, because the developers haven't said anything about it yet. Until then, I have yet to see anyone be unfairly critical about this change... no one has mentioned "slap in the face" or "I'm cancelling my account" in any posts talking about it. They're just voicing concerns that haven't gotten an official answer yet.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Well, considering my join date being about 6 months after first trying the game and getting an account...yeah.
I'm new to the game, so what? I'm an optimist....so what?
The devs have the best interests of the game in mind, they aren't going to intentionally screw over the playerbase. Without counting fixes to AE to make it not as easy to abuse like a red-headed stepchild for farming, the last huge 'screw you' to the majority of the players was...what? Enhancement Diversification? Global Defense Nerf?
i13 PvP may count for PvPers, but everything else was LONG before my time. What I have seen in my time has all been good stuff. Super Sidekicking, Power Customization, Ultra Mode, Going Rogue....
Okay the 'Party Pack' was a stupid move, and I was never going to buy it....then I got drunk and bought it.
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Another vote for this. I like having KB in blaster powers, it helps keep them alive.
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Originally Posted by Soul Plague
This (although I don't necessarily need "tons"). I'm ok with having a KB power in the set. Just don't make it "chance of" as I'd prefer the predictability of 100% KB.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Well, keep in mind that one person's "best interests" can be different from someone else's. In my book, waiting as long as they did to adjust Fiery Aura and Burn were not good things, and I still think it hasn't been in the game's best interest to let other game issues hang around for Kheldians, certain game bugs (the final LGTF map, procs that are not working correctly for months, nay years, etc.).|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Well, considering my join date being about 6 months after first trying the game and getting an account...yeah.
I'm new to the game, so what? I'm an optimist....so what? The devs have the best interests of the game in mind, they aren't going to intentionally screw over the playerbase. Without counting fixes to AE to make it not as easy to abuse like a red-headed stepchild for farming, the last huge 'screw you' to the majority of the players was...what? Enhancement Diversification? Global Defense Nerf? |
For what else you said, we don't know that EA is going to get their taunt aura suppressed when stealth, especially since that would be different than any other aura that Brutes and Scrappers get. I hope they find a happy medium, but we don't know if they have or will, so that causes the debate.
Such is life on any forums.
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Okay: Name another Scrapper/Brute defense set that includes a Stealth power with a taunt aura tied to their mez protection power instead of being a damage aura.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
For what else you said, we don't know that EA is going to get their taunt aura suppressed when stealth, especially since that would be different than any other aura that Brutes and Scrappers get. I hope they find a happy medium, but we don't know if they have or will, so that causes the debate.
Such is life on any forums. |
EA has had stealth since day one, right? Why on earth would the devs intentionally change a power so as to completely invalidate another power in the exact same set? The proposed changes are likely going to be made with the stealth capabilities of the powerset AS ORIGINALLY MADE in mind.
I have faith in the development team, they have learned from past mistakes and are working to make sets better.
As for the issues stripped from the quote: Mapping takes more time and effort than I think you realize. Imbalanced effects take time to be noticed and data properly gathered once abuses are noticed....
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They'd have to horrendously do the following:|
Originally Posted by Niklarus
Please Super Strength for Scrappers in Proliferation 4.0? Please?
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- change damage mods down
- change endurance consumption up
- change recharge time up
Honestly? This is asking for a power set to be broken. Crit'ing on Foot Stomp? Crit on Knockout Blow? Plus Rage?
Could you imagine a Super Strength/Shield Def scrapper?
Yeah.
I honestly don't think they should prolif Super Strength to scrappers.
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So what your saying is that we should only object or point out the big "screw you", and that we should just cowboy/girl up when it comes to the little "screw you". |
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
The devs have the best interests of the game in mind, they aren't going to intentionally screw over the playerbase. Without counting fixes to AE to make it not as easy to abuse like a red-headed stepchild for farming, the last huge 'screw you' to the majority of the players was...what? Enhancement Diversification? Global Defense Nerf?
i13 PvP may count for PvPers, but everything else was LONG before my time. What I have seen in my time has all been good stuff. Super Sidekicking, Power Customization, Ultra Mode, Going Rogue... |
The Devs have put out good stuff because many players have given good feedback; or do you see the Devs as being all seeing, all knowing? As far as I know they are just as mortal as the rest of us, and they have holes in their knowledge, and paradigms to work through just like the rest of us. Also being they are not divine beings, they do not know what our priorities are, when it comes to screw yous. Maybe a little screw you is not so little after all. If people dont state their opinions (Preferably in a constructive manor.), how will the Devs fill those holes and work through those paradigms. Again, my statement being based on the premise that the Devs are not divine beings.
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Again, you are talking about being efficient.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
Not true at all, I will not play the set if the new power has massive KB. I've used dark blast in the past using the two other AoEs and omitting torrent, but it's just not going to be a functional set without picking the new power. DB is not a set you use for rewards per minute, others pump out more damage, it's a control heavy blast set, and spreading mobs out in a control heavy set is a disaster particularly given that I suspect people will choose secondaries with it that will like the mobs close together.
I know VERY few decent players that regard AoE KB as more of a benefit than a hindrance in a general team setting (there are some niche situations where it's useful). It just tends to get people killed and frustrate people whose AoEs were aimed at 10-16 targets and only hit 3. Solo it has its uses, but the big problem is that while making one of 3 AoEs in a set situational is not a huge problem, making one of 2 situational is. |
I am talking about having fun.
KB = Fun.
IMO, anyone that gets upset about KB is simply not someone that is playing to laugh and have fun.
I could not care less if my AoE only hit one target because it went off after a big KB power, be it mine or another players, because I am too busy laughing at the flying bad guys.
My friends and I compete with each other to send things flying.
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I have faith in them too. I have faith that they'll listen to the concerns of the players when making a decision and will weigh those concerns against their intended goal. Sometimes their idea of fun or fair does not mesh with that of the general playerbase, and they'll take that into account before the decision becomes final (and sometimes even after).|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
I have faith in the development team, they have learned from past mistakes and are working to make sets better.
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This is just another example of people saying, "Hello, we have a concern here!" and awaiting a developer response on it. Maybe they'll reply directly, maybe they won't, but I guarantee that someone on the team has read this thread and given it thought.
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Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Just FYI: What is left to proliferate.
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If I'm not mistaken that is something they cannot do. The mechanic behind the Hidden status is already on three different archetypes. (I forget what it is called behind the scenes...Fury?)|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
So, following your suggestion, they either have to add a "Hidden" status to Energy Cloak--which may be an option, or it may have auto-critting baked into the status at well and not be an option--or they have to create a new "Stealthed" status. And then they'd have to give the Stealthed status to all other stealth powers... and should it be given by using a Stealth IO? Should it suppress other powersets' toggles? You'd have people complaining either way about that.
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If Energy Cloak gives 100% hidden status, that would translate into a full bar of Fury on Brutes. For an example of this, look at the Frenzy power when you're playing as a Villain Alignment. It gives 100% + Fury(?) which makes Stalkers Hidden, gives Brutes a full bar of Fury, and gives Dominators a full Domination bar.
Personally I liked the idea of combining the two passives into one and adding the taunt aura as a new power.
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I am a bit disappointed that stalker doesn't get Ice Melee. Both Scrapper/Brute get 3 new sets while Stalker just gets a secondary. blah
I was so hoping for Ice Melee on villain side.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
They could add Mag 4 mez protection vs. Hold, Stun, KB, Immob, and Sleep to Energy Cloak. Being a little extra strong against mezzes when both powers are up could be a nifty little benefit (currently only Regen gets something like that).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Doesn't rooted work with granite?
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
They could add Mag 4 mez protection vs. Hold, Stun, KB, Immob, and Sleep to Energy Cloak. Being a little extra strong against mezzes when both powers are up could be a nifty little benefit (currently only Regen gets something like that).
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Be well, people of CoH.
I have admittedly not read all 15 pages of responses yet (I have gone through the first 5 pages and haven't seen any mention of this question though), so maybe I misunderstand.
Did I misread this or what?
"Entropy Shield is now Entropic Aura for Scrappers and Brutes. This power is a taunt aura that grants the user a scaling recharge buff based on the number of foes surrounding the user. The Stalker version of the set doesnt have a taunt aura, but it offers a small Recharge bonus."
Entropy Shield is the MEZ PROTECTION shield for EA . . .
So are they saying that EA will be a defense set without any mez protection? Or that the new power will be both mez protection AND taunt aura AND scaling recharge buff?
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I asked the same thing with no response. I'm going to assume it will still give the protections to mez, KB, ect. Otherwise it would just be a horrible set.
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Originally Posted by Soulwind
I have admittedly not read all 15 pages of responses yet (I have gone through the first 5 pages and haven't seen any mention of this question though), so maybe I misunderstand.
Did I misread this or what? "Entropy Shield is now Entropic Aura for Scrappers and Brutes. This power is a taunt aura that grants the user a scaling recharge buff based on the number of foes surrounding the user. The Stalker version of the set doesnt have a taunt aura, but it offers a small Recharge bonus." Entropy Shield is the MEZ PROTECTION shield for EA . . . So are they saying that EA will be a defense set without any mez protection? Or that the new power will be both mez protection AND taunt aura AND scaling recharge buff? |
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Ya know, I think I have a pretty long fuse, for the most part, but the other day, while on a TF with my brute, (Dark/fire, with a load of pbaoe powers), I learned what it is to truly hate another AT. Peacebringers, when I'm on my brute, and you can't control your godforsaken KB powers, I really, really despise you and your ilk. |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Again, you are talking about being efficient.
I am talking about having fun. KB = Fun. IMO, anyone that gets upset about KB is simply not someone that is playing to laugh and have fun. I could not care less if my AoE only hit one target because it went off after a big KB power, be it mine or another players, because I am too busy laughing at the flying bad guys. My friends and I compete with each other to send things flying. |
So yes, as has been repeated many times, there are people out there for whom KB just makes the game LESS FUN. So you can have all the fun you want, but be aware that you may be making it less fun for others.
Also, if you play these ATs and have read the forums at all, you should be aware that this is not the first time that people have expressed that KB makes playing their particular AT more difficult and less enjoyable, so to say that anyone is 'unfun' for disliking your KB powers is foolishly shortsighted at best and jerkhackish at worst.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Does that extra minute per mission that occurs because of some knockback really matter all that much? It's not like you're not still steamrolling through everything.
Be well, people of CoH.
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It's not the extra minute. It's the fact that I didn't get to to 'that cool thing that my powers let me do to the good/bad guys' that ruffles my rhubarb. Gathering a nice clump to Soul Drain/Consume/Burn into charred hulks only to have them knocked away by some numhead who does 5% damage to them is like having someone &^*(( in my Cheerios.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Does that extra minute per mission that occurs because of some knockback really matter all that much? It's not like you're not still steamrolling through everything.
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While I am still eating them.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
The only time Knockback has bothered me recently (mind you, I play like 70% melee characters and the rest are support) was on a BAF a couple weeks ago. Some doofus was spamming Gale on the ambush spawns and actually getting people killed because of it. He wasn't trying to troll on purpose or anything... he honestly believed that the best way he could help was to spread out the bad guys so they couldn't focus their attacks. As you can imagine, the rest of us fighting the adds felt very differently. We got him to stop using it indiscriminately, focus it on pushing the adds back against the building, and all was peachy in the end.
Prior to that, I had a lot of hatred for Knockback when I was still learning the game. Nothing sucks worse for a poorly-built Scrapper than having his target tossed across the room and into another group. But the person I was duoing with learned to control her Knockback, and I learned how to build a damn character properly, and the hate I held for Knockback subsided.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I'm curious why you would quote me and say this, when I clearly said that I believed my concern "will be alleviated when we see all the patch notes". I have full faith that they know what they're doing, and don't feel that I'm being at all belligerent or unreasonable in expressing my concern with the information as originally presented.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
For some reason, I feel dirty being the voice of reason. Why doesn't anyone else think that the devs might actually know what they're doing?
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Perhaps you "feel dirty being the voice of reason" because you're implying that the rest of us weren't being reasonable, when in fact some/most of us were?
I do appreciate your core point, which I read as, "Don't panic, it's probably already dealt with". I also happen to agree with it, and am not sure where in what you quoted from me you could ever conclude otherwise.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Not to mention the AOEs were helping with the adds a lot as well, and the person complaining was on a ranged character to boot. *rolls eyes* I have two Storm characters, among other characters with location aoes, but I roll with KB as best I can. I think the only time I have complained on one of them is when a Kin Melee character uses that cone KB as a lead in, and doesn't aim toward a wall. It doesn't help (since it's a weak attack), and knocks things out of Freezing Rain, which would have helped more than the KB he did.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
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