Jeuraud

The line for me between Tech and Science is whether the outcome fell within expected results or not. Both origins require an intermix of tech and science. For me it would be Tech only if putting the brain into the robot was meant to manifest powers. If on the other hand the powers was a side affect of being put into the robot body, then the abilities would be Science. To further this, if through scientific research, this manifestation of powers was found to be reproducible, and others produced, then the others produced would be Tech.

The Hulk was produced through the use of technology, but he is considered Science, because he was made through an accidental use of technology. Also we know that just zapping someone with gamma rays does not produce another Hulk. Something else we do know is that another Hulk was created, though of far lesser power level. She was also created through the side affects of technology (Radiated blood transfusion.). She was also the cousin of Banner, which implies that the creation of Hulk had a genetic component, as well as a scientific component, which could make their origin Science Mutation.

First, I did not say he “was” Mutation Science, I said I “could see” him that way. Second, Peter Parker was not an “un-special loser”.
In other words he was a nerd. As far as I know Spiderman has never had any serious research done on his abilities. I don’t know if his abilities would have been reproducible. I don’t know if someone else being bit by the spider would have manifested the same powers, manifested other powers, or just up and died. I do know that Mutants already existed in his reality, when he manifested his powers. I also know that he was able to pass his abilities down to his daughter, which implies there is a genetic component to the powers. Now was that genetic component created by the spider bite, or was it already a part of him. If the creators of Spiderman have not specified this, than it’s left up to me to decide, and it’s easier for me to suspend disbelief, if I think there was genetic difference in Peter Parker that reacted to the radioactive spider bite, thus Mutation Science. Now if you have something from the creators of Spiderman that says there is no genetic component to Peter Parker’s transformation, then I will have to change my viewpoint. Otherwise my viewpoint falls well within the verse that was created around Spiderman.

Unless of course you are not human and those psychic powers are inherant to your race, then you would be of Natural origin. What if those powers came about because your brain was put into the robots body, would that not make your abilities Science in origin? What if the robot components amplify the abilities you had, but never had the juice to manifest, would that not be Tech in origin.


Also a lot of origins are not cut and dry to just one origin. I see Batman as Tech and Natural. I could see Spiderman as being Mutation and Science, where the spider bite was the catalyst that activated a mutation in him, that for anyone else would have just killed them. Johny 5 who was already mentioned in this thread could be Science and Tech. I've always wished I could choose two origins.

I think whether your character is Tech or Science, or both, is up to you.

All you have to do is spend five bucks in the store on paragon points, that will get you to T2. I then suggest you use the points on a Auction House License and learn to use it, because selling salvage and recipes to venders will not get you near as far as learning to use the market. Using the auction house will make acquiring even standard enhancements a hells of lot easier.

Dude you left yourself wide open with this statement.

Siphon Life @ lvl 50
Brute- 149.93 hp heal
Scrapper- 133.86 hp heal

True Grit @ lvl 50
Brute- 149.93 +hp
Scrapper- 133.86 +hp

It's irrelevant whether you find these numbers important or not, they make your statement false.


How about we go to what seems to be the biggy of Shield Defense, Shield Charge.

Scrapper dmg @ lvl 50 150.15
Brute dmg @ lvl 50 100.10

Something to note about Shield Charge is that it is not effected by Critical but is affected by Fury. This means that the Brute just needs their Fury to add +50% damage to equal Scrapper damage. At level 2 against a 0/+1 group I'll have over 120%+ dmg, before I turn to the third minion. I can damn well guarantee you that at level 50 I'm not going to be just going up against 0/+1 groups, and with just the tier 1, 2 and brawl attacks. Except for the very first group, you would have to be pretty fricken incompetent to not be able to carry +50% dmg from one group to another (Especially with the new Fury.). Also there is nothing to say that a Brute cannot use Shield Charge as a shield bash, after all it's not really the kinetic energy from the travel part of the power that causes the damage and kb.

Note, I'm primarily thinking solo, because I primarily run solo, but the statement was "clearly superior in every way".


Last but not least to me, this is a game, it's supposed to be fun, if I'm not having fun most of the time then it's not fulfilling the function I wish from it. I despise the COHv RNG. A Scapper's Criticals are based upon a game mechanic that I despise and cannot affect. A Brute's Fury is directly affected by how I play the Brute. This means for me, a Scrapper will never be "clearly superior" to a Brute in "every way", no matter the set.

Your absolutely right; after all this isn't the Dev group that made the mez protection toggle of one of the Armor sets, root the player when they turned it on. Nor is it the Dev group that did not allow the player to turn all of their toggles on at once with another Armor set. Nor is it the Dev group that told us that we did not need, nor did we really want to know power stats.

Wait, this is the Dev group responsible for those and many more "things" that have been changed over the years. Well mayhap's that Dev group was not as omniscient as some of you make them out to be.

I'm not much of a worshiper, whether it's devs or rules, don't much matter to me. Saying something should not be done, because it's not presently done that way, or because someone says that someone of authority said it's not possible, or not worth the time, are ludicrous arguments to me. I'm pretty sure that there were folks telling the people who were figuring out how to harness fire, that it was impossible; also that the present way was good enough for their pappy, thus it's good enough for them, and/or that harnessing fire was going to blow up in their face (Which is actually true, depending on how people look at things.).

I like the idea of some form of freeform power structure within CoHv (I would love to make a melee debuff/buff Corr, like I can for custom critters.). I have no clue whether the OP's idea is workable or not, but to say that because the Devs from 8 years ago could not get freeform to work, means this Dev group cant either, is ludicrous. It is also dismissive and disrespectful to this Dev group. This is not the same Dev group, both in personnel, and most importantly, experience.

Sigh, this is just ludicrous. You should not have to spend 10 years as a Aviation Electrician, USN; to know that you do not get trained in your weapon systems while in combat. That is exactly what you are suggesting, with this comment.

Lol! Saying the Stalker is built around Hide, is like saying the Warthog is built around Flight. These are both tools designed to deliver the payload. Neither the Warthog nor the Stalker are going to do much killing with just these tools.

That you feel that Stalkers should not have given up there ability to deliver AoEs for AS is your opinion. Saying that AS is an annoyance is also your opinion (Though I actually agree with you about AS being annoying.).

The Stalker was not built to do AoE, that is fact. There are 2 sets that have no AoE's. Only 3 sets have PBAOE's, 1 giving you 100% from hide (The only AoE in it's set.), 1 50%, and 1 only giving you 30%. 3 of the sets have AoE cones that are so tight that calling them AoE's is pushing it. A good share of your AoE is not available until level 26, or 32.



As for it being not that painful, I'm an altiholic, not a masochist. I build new characters all the time. The Stalker is the only AT where I have spent time sitting on my butt waiting on my HP's and my Rest to come back, at level 4 (Hells it's the only AT that I have been face planted at these low levels in ages.) That is if I play it as a Stalker. If I use my vet range attack to initiate attacks, then it's not that big a deal. Any Brute I have built, at this level can jump into the same group, and starting from 0 fury, can 1 shot the last even level minion standing; yet my Stalkers cannot do it from hide. I expect my experience to be equivalent with all ATs, especially at these levels.

What is it with you people. The primary reason that Stalkers give up their AS is because it's broken. It's hard to use in groups. It's fricken slow as all hells. It cant be used in ambushes. Your better off using a short Coned AoE that only has a 50% chance for critical, than to not to be able to get any criticals from hide. That does not mean that a properly working AS would not have been a hells of a lot better tool.

Spirits, I cant believe that people are defending the Stalker AT's right to be broken.

BS, the Stalker is built around AS, just as the Air Force Warthog is built around the GAU-8 Avenger. It would be ludicrous for the air force to tell it's Warthog pilots, that they cannot turn on their main weapon until they gain some experience, and it's ludicrous to tell the Stalker the same thing.

My ability to take out a level 0 minion with a normal attack while hidden, ends at the end of level 3 (Except Broadsword.). From then on until I get AS I'm going to get hammered by every MOB in the group, and if I use my biggest hitter, which is also my slowest power, out of hide, I'm going to get hammered before my power completes. More than likely every MOB in the group will have the opportunity to hit me at least twice before I take out my original target.

Now you bump that up to +1s and Murphy steps in, I can be face planted, before I know what happens. This is only 2 levels, but it's 2 painful levels, unless you group and let the group cover your butt.

Isn't Shield Charge just a Kinetic Energy Weapon. The whole idea around a KEW is that velocity is more important than mass. This means that whether it was a shield, a gun, or even a gauntlet, is not that important (Being the player is the biggest part of this mass.). Of course in a KEW the mass is generally destroyed in the impact, but again this is a super powers game.

Seam's to me that your idea is mostly flavor, so the easiest way to implement this would be to make Gun an option in the Shield defensive power. The gun as a deflective device is no more unrealistic, then a sword, bracers, or even a shield in a supper powers game.

Of course this does not allow you to use the gun offensively (Except for brawl, and charge.), but this is a defensive set your talking about.

Light in details, was on purpose. This thread is about cottage rules/guidelines, not Stalker issues. Being insulting was not on purpose, but after going back and reading my replies, I can see that. To be frank I consider your first post to be insulting, but less mean spirited than mine.

And you hit the crux of my problem with the cottage rules/guidelines. The Devs actually did fix the Stalker, and they went beyond the cottage rules/guidlelines to do so. They created the Bane.

The Devs stomped all over the toes of Scrappers with the changes to Stalker criticals. Also your statement makes it sound like the Devs have not been dinking with Stalkers for 6+ years. It also seam's like you don’t have a clue what the primary issue is with them. Not surprising even though you have a couple. After all functionality is less important to you then concept.

It's ludicrous to believe that the Devs can remain within the cottage rules guidelines after this amount of time. There is no justifiable reason for Stalkers to be in the shape they are in if this was true.

The functionality of a power, or even an AT, is important to me and to many others, and I'm not really surprised that you cant see that.

The Stalker AT is cool in concept, not so much in operation. I believe that the Devs are going to have to go beyond the normal guidelines to fix an AT that has been broken for 6+ years. I don’t think this means that they need to or even should, remove the attack from hidden that is the defining concept of the Stalker.

So what your saying is that we should only object or point out the big "screw you", and that we should just cowboy/girl up when it comes to the little "screw you".

The Devs have put out good stuff because many players have given good feedback; or do you see the Devs as being all seeing, all knowing? As far as I know they are just as mortal as the rest of us, and they have holes in their knowledge, and paradigms to work through just like the rest of us. Also being they are not divine beings, they do not know what our priorities are, when it comes to screw yous. Maybe a little screw you is not so little after all. If people don’t state their opinions (Preferably in a constructive manor.), how will the Devs fill those holes and work through those paradigms. Again, my statement being based on the premise that the Devs are not divine beings.

You were the one preaching a rule; it's your responsibility to back it. I already had suspicion that there was no official rule, thus no official documentation. Thanks for pointing out Arcanavilles post though. I missed it trying to keep up with this thread.

Though Arcanavilles words are clean and precise, which is expected of Arcanavilles, they are not official rules (b : prescribed or recognized as authorized <an official language>, a : a prescribed guide for conduct or action), about what can and cannot be done, they are guidelines (b : an indication or outline of policy or conduct), and they are not official. It is now obvious that there are no such rules, and as far as I care there should not be. The problem is if the Devs have decided to move them from guidelines to rules.

My suggestion to move Stalker's AS down automatically violate these "rules". This means that if the Devs have accepted these as rules then they can automatically dismiss my suggestion without giving it real thought, and to be frank it's human nature to do exactly that, if you have something to point at that will take the responsibility for doing the job away from you. This is especially true when the problem is not personally important to you, and you feel that you have more important things to do.

It's not important whether my suggestion is viable or not, it's important that it not be automatically dismissed, because it violates a rule that is not a rule.

No I don't want it paired down in your terms. I want to read the actual rule, along with the examples given by the Devs. You do know what "Documented" means, right?

My first reaction to this statement was; well then the fact that I don’t like the way something already is, should also be reason enough, but I bet it would not be. Then I really thought about your statement and realized that if your reaction was the ultimate reaction to things, we would still be hanging out in caves, and getting fire from lightning strikes. Hells, maybe not even using tools at all; after all isn't carrion, bugs, and vegetables/fruits you can just pick up and pop into your mouth, good enough?

Am I overreacting a bit, maybe, but someone's liking of something the way it presently is does not automatically negate my not liking the way it presently is.

To be frank I think this thread is a waste of time, but when you posted your house example it reminded me of why I dislike the idea of such a rule.

I have been doing maintenance tasks since I was 10. I took all kinds of shop classes in Jr High and High school. I spent 10 years as a Aviation Electrician in the US Navy. Another 12+ years as a maintenance tech for a high tech company, and the past few years as a limited energy electrician. My point is that I have been doing maintenance tasks professionally and non professionally longer than some of you have been alive.

The first thing you do when a problem is brought to you is to determine if there is a problem, and whether a solution, that is often brought along with the problem, is viable. The Cottage Rule undermines this process. It gives the Devs something to point at right from the start that says why they do not even need to look at the solution that was brought with the problem. What also happens a lot under these circumstance is the problem is then given little weight.

If such a rule were to exists it needs to be clear, precise, and documented. Memphis_Bill as a proponent of the rule, and continually making a point about our ignorance of the rule, you have yet to post the rule, and let us read it for ourselves.

Uh, what part of this did some of you not get?
And what part of this did some of you not get?
That was the whole point. How is it that 2 of you that are proponents of the Cottage Rule did not get this?

There is absolutely nothing that will interrupt AS at level 1. That AS is not usable outside of hide is one of the Stalkers problems. But to be fair I should have said that it should have been a tier 2 power, just to let a newb know that they should probably not pick it at level 1. You definitely need it by level 4 when most of the sets biggest attacks will no longer take out an even level minion from hide (I believe Broadsword is still capable.). A big part of the Stalkers problems at this level is that the MOBs will react to your biggest attack (Which is also your slowest.), before you complete your attack. You can find your self at half your hit points within seconds of initiating an attack from hide, because now your getting hit by all of the MOBs in the group multiple times, and your taking longer to take them out. You can use your faster attack, and not get hit while making a hide attack but then you are doing less burst damage, and may actually take longer to take the first MOB out, thus you are still taking more hits in the encounter.

Something else, is there like something wrong with my fricken English?

I have seen houses jacked up, and the foundation torn out and replaced. It would have been ridiculous to say that the foundation was not going to be replaced because there was a renter living in the house.

The point is you don’t set an arbitrary rule that says you cant repair something that is broken. It does not matter what the rule says or why it supposedly says anything. If the Devs don’t want to do something to a power or a set, then they take the responsibility for the decision. Cottage Rule is a form of Dev passing the buck, and it's a ridiculous form. It's not like it's a fricken law of nature.

It's also confusing. Would taking the Stalker's AS out of the level 6 slot, placing it in the level 1 slot and moving the rest of the powers up in slot position, violate the Cottage Rule. This should have been done before Villains was released. Not having this immediately available is no different then not allowing MMs to have pets until level 6. It was asinine that this was not immediately fixed, and here it's 6+ years later and it's still not fixed. Is that because of the "Cottage Rule"?

Freedom of speech here in the US is protection from the government only, and even then there are cases were the majority has caused a government policy against freedom of speech under certain circumstances (Sexism/Racism in the workplace.)

In this game NCsoft/Paragon has stated that sexism/racism are not acceptable forms of expression, and they are well within their rights to do so. It's up to the lucky moderators to decide what is sexism/racism, and to enforce this rule.

As a US serviceman just out of boot in the late 70's, I got to experience a lot of little-ist, here in the states, even though I'm a white male. Civilians were not happy about the way Viet Nam ended and instead of blaming the fricken government they were blaming the military. A little while after I got out of my A school the US Navy quit requiring junior enlisted to wear their uniform off base.

As a US serviceman I got to deal with a lot of little-ist over seas.

As a Maintenance Tech for a top 500 High Tech manufacturing company, the company was ramping up it's automatic manufacturing so fast that they were rapidly running out of qualified techs (At the sight I was at.), while at the same time they were reducing the need for operators. One of the recommendations from the maintenance group was to open up an in-house apprentice program. The company finally did, and right there in the documentation the company stated that it had been noticed that over 95% of the on sight maintenance group was white males, so the first batch of apprentice positions was only going to be opened to females and people of non-white persuasion. The Operator group was probably 75-80% female, with maybe 1% non-white. This first group was filled (All female.), and within 2 years 90% of them were gone. Why, because the Ops did not see us when we were crammed into a grimy piece of equipment holding a heavy piece of equipment in place (Getting all grimy and sweaty.), while another grimy and sweaty tech who was crammed in there with you was trying to fasten it down. There was a reason why the maintenance group was predominantly male. The reason for it being predominantly white was the location of the sight.

I believe that little-ist are more prevalent now. Big-ist get stomped on real fast. Little-ist often get made into policies.

This woman's back is straight, her body is leaning away from the squirrel, and her lips are sucked into the mouth, in fact the top lip is pretty much non existent. SP's back is arched, her butt is up in the air, her breast are thrust at the viewer, and her lips are thrust out and very full. These are come hither signals for the human animal.

I want to clarify something, I'm not offended by the comic. I just feel that it is not telling the story that it is supposed to be telling. It's sending mixed signals. The eyes of SP are telling one story and her body is telling another. If the Devs don’t care that I found the comic to be "wrong", and once I studied it, what was wrong with it for me, I can live with that.

OK, I know that I did not specify it, but my statement was based upon my military experience, and being I've had no life experience from WWII otherwise military experience, if your going to post examples, could you possibly post examples that are little more up to date. At least within the last 2 or 3 decades.