Dark Melee/Shield Defense...Scrapper or Brute?
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-07-28 18:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I'd go for Scrappers since Scrappers do more damage with Shield Charge. I rerolled my villainous DM/SD as a Scrapper when GR came out, in fact.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Scrappers.
There's really not much reason I can think of to make a Shield Brute, unless you just don't like Scrappers or Tankers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yeah it's one of the combos that is just clearly superior in every way on a Scrapper.
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Dude you left yourself wide open with this statement.|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Yeah it's one of the combos that is just clearly superior in every way on a Scrapper.
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Siphon Life @ lvl 50
Brute- 149.93 hp heal
Scrapper- 133.86 hp heal
True Grit @ lvl 50
Brute- 149.93 +hp
Scrapper- 133.86 +hp
It's irrelevant whether you find these numbers important or not, they make your statement false.
How about we go to what seems to be the biggy of Shield Defense, Shield Charge.
Scrapper dmg @ lvl 50 150.15
Brute dmg @ lvl 50 100.10
Something to note about Shield Charge is that it is not effected by Critical but is affected by Fury. This means that the Brute just needs their Fury to add +50% damage to equal Scrapper damage. At level 2 against a 0/+1 group I'll have over 120%+ dmg, before I turn to the third minion. I can damn well guarantee you that at level 50 I'm not going to be just going up against 0/+1 groups, and with just the tier 1, 2 and brawl attacks. Except for the very first group, you would have to be pretty fricken incompetent to not be able to carry +50% dmg from one group to another (Especially with the new Fury.). Also there is nothing to say that a Brute cannot use Shield Charge as a shield bash, after all it's not really the kinetic energy from the travel part of the power that causes the damage and kb.
Note, I'm primarily thinking solo, because I primarily run solo, but the statement was "clearly superior in every way".
Last but not least to me, this is a game, it's supposed to be fun, if I'm not having fun most of the time then it's not fulfilling the function I wish from it. I despise the COHv RNG. A Scapper's Criticals are based upon a game mechanic that I despise and cannot affect. A Brute's Fury is directly affected by how I play the Brute. This means for me, a Scrapper will never be "clearly superior" to a Brute in "every way", no matter the set.
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I find the Brute Patron & Epics to be overall better choices, in particular Darkest Night makes for a pretty amazing choice coupled with all of the great things about the DM/SD combo.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Scrappers.
There's really not much reason I can think of to make a Shield Brute, unless you just don't like Scrappers or Tankers. |
The Brute will also have a rough extra 200HP or so and can get around 2800 or so with OWTS if they slot for it.
You will regen more HP/S due to higher HP, and you will heal more with each cast of Siphon Life, and Rebirth will provide a higher benefit.
You will lose out on the absolute top end DPS DM/SD is capable of, but you will still do very good to excellent DPS and you will be harder to kill.
While their statement is false, you also have to factor in Soul Drain and AAO where the scrapper clearly beats a brute since both are factored off of base damage.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I find the Brute Patron & Epics to be overall better choices, in particular Darkest Night makes for a pretty amazing choice coupled with all of the great things about the DM/SD combo.
The Brute will also have a rough extra 200HP or so and can get around 2800 or so with OWTS if they slot for it. You will regen more HP/S due to higher HP, and you will heal more with each cast of Siphon Life, and Rebirth will provide a higher benefit. You will lose out on the absolute top end DPS DM/SD is capable of, but you will still do very good to excellent DPS and you will be harder to kill. |
Like intended, brutes are a little more survivable while doing a little less damage. I too find brute patron pools a little better than what scrappers have, especially mu and soul mastery for their various purposes. Gloom is an awesome single target attack and fills in a brute attack chain, and darkest night is a quick shortcut to incarnate softcap and the -damage is useful in almost any situation.
Some people will argue that the extra survivability is useless, and this may be true part of the time. There have been times, however, when I was glad for the extra HP provided by the brute. I have two shield toons, one scrapper and one brute, and I enjoy them both very much for different reasons.
Something to realize is that it's easy to weight an example in favor of a brute, but there's a few intangibles to realize. For one, at least go saturated soul drain + fury and saturated soul drain on the scrapper alone, base values matter. For two, brutes still retain punchvoke, and their survivability in SD comes down to a literal 200 HP and change. This is not as big a gain as, say, invuln or willpower, where they can achieve a higher HP Cap, have mixed defenses, and regen matters more. A brute will be pulling more aggro and generally be in danger substantially more then the scrapper, despite their defenses being almost the same.
Shield defense is one of the worst sets a brute could pick, as it IS worse to a scrapper in virtually every way. Scrappers have a higher base damage, lower damage caps (which AAO and SD help to achieve), and don't have punchvoke, which helps quite a bit when it comes to not dying. Having 200 more HP won't stop something that'll one shot a scrapper, save for some extreme circumstances. The other thing to realize is that brutes just have flat out better options as far as damage goes, so SD is kinda left in the dust.
All things being equal, the gap between scrapper and brute SD are much, much smaller than they appear, which in turn heavily weighs it in the scrapper's favor. If both have near the same survivability and the brute outright pulls more hate by simple design, the scrapper wins in pretty much every way.
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I did.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
While their statement is false, you also have to factor in Soul Drain and AAO where the scrapper clearly beats a brute since both are factored off of base damage.
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Originally Posted by Kenteko
For two, brutes still retain punchvoke, and their survivability in SD comes down to a literal 200 HP and change.
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Even with just 1 L50 Heal IO, you can Break 2700 after accolades, IO sets, etc.
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Originally Posted by Kenteko
This is not as big a gain as, say, invuln or willpower, where they can achieve a higher HP Cap, have mixed defenses, and regen matters more. A brute will be pulling more aggro and generally be in danger substantially more then the scrapper, despite their defenses being almost the same.
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SD does have layered mitigation, its just not as highly specialized on survivability compared to Invuln, which is the sacrifice it makes in favor of more offense.
That being said it has roughly comparable resistances to exotic damage types vs. invuln, and has an infinitely more use-friendly T9 power.
I have both SD Scrappers and SD Brutes.
My AoE heavy Brutes take quite a large portion of incoming aggro, and the SD Scrappers are really not that far behind. The taunt in AAO is incredibly strong, and any SD character will be eating a large portion of aggro whether they like it or not.
My SD Scrappers are constantly drawing a ton of aggro on Lambda & BAF.
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Originally Posted by Kenteko
Shield defense is one of the worst sets a brute could pick, as it IS worse to a scrapper in virtually every way. Scrappers have a higher base damage, lower damage caps (which AAO and SD help to achieve), and don't have punchvoke, which helps quite a bit when it comes to not dying. Having 200 more HP won't stop something that'll one shot a scrapper, save for some extreme circumstances. The other thing to realize is that brutes just have flat out better options as far as damage goes, so SD is kinda left in the dust.
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I also think what I said above replies to most of this, 2700 to 2800 HP is a very large gap, which also increases Regen and heals from Siphon.
There is also the availability of Darkest Night, which can get you to incarnate softcap and increases your survivability in a way the Scrapper simply has no answer for.
Any answer the Scrapper does come up with, Barrier, +res inspirations, demonic aura/eye of the magus - the Brute has access to as well.
My point is not that the Brute version is better, but that the benefits on the Brute end are often underestimated.
Trust me, I thought long and hard before I finally decided on Brute over Scrapper for my DM/SD. I knew I was going to spare no expense on the build and the Scrapper DPS was very tempting.
In the end, I decided on the option that can potentially draw and hold more aggro for a team, with a higher peak survivability as well as Darkest Night which benefits any allies in range with the extra protection it provides.
I have a km/sd scrapper and I also have a dm/sd brute and I feel I am able to survive better with my brute and with soul mastery (darkest night) I am able to contribute more to the team even though my brute does less damage than my scrapper.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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You had me until you dropped this baby. Just because sd for brutes isn't as offensive as sd for scrappers doesn't mean it is one of the worst sets available for brutes. It just means that it doesn't match the damage output of scrapper sd. I have a lvl 50 well built shield scrapper and a brute. I enjoy what each brings to the table, and I never feel inferior playing one over the other.
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Originally Posted by Kenteko
Shield defense is one of the worst sets a brute could pick, as it IS worse to a scrapper in virtually every way.
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Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
My main is a DM/SD/Soul Brute and there is no way that the combo is lacking in survivability; I don't even use Darkest Night all that much - I don't need it. SD is an excellent pair for DM (and vice versa) because it brings the added AoE damage of Shield Charge and the combination of -ToHit and +Defense is always fantastic. And while Darkest Night is great, the real reasons I went for Soul were Dark Obliteration (amazing AoE blast) and Gloom. Gloom is one advantage that Brutes have over Scrappers: it has better DPA than any power in Dark Melee, meaning that if you can get the recharge to run it, Gloom > Smite > Midnight Grasp > Smite does amazing damage (it's actually one of the best chains available for ST damage for a Brute, period). And the added AoE of SD and Soul make up for Dark Melee's lack.
As for survivability... I'm not seeing any issues. I was soloing at +4x8 before Incarnate stuff hit without even needing Darkest Night or One with the Shield (I'd drop them, but the set bonuses I've got from them are good), and with them, I'm finding it hard to find things that can challenge him outside the iTrials (to the point where I'm starting to feel bad) - I tend to keep them around for when I decide to do something ridiculous, like tank all 8 AVs at the end of the LRSF at once (there's something where Brutes' higher Res cap makes a huge difference).
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My DM/SD is a Scrapper.
I can solo most of the +4*8 missions and a lot of AV/GM but:
- Arachnos, Longbow, Nemesis, Carnies may cause you problems.
- Devouring Earth will **** you.
All in all the main problem is that anything that passes through your defense (even worste if Psy) can possibly one-shoot you. So thats everything that has accuracy buff or badass def debuffs (even if you are "nearly" DDR caped exploiting Membranes), or autohits (+4 Carnies with multiple illusionist will maul you with Dominate freaking hardcore). And, of course, even def caped you still have 8% to get hit.
A Brute is less likely to get one-shot due to larger hp pool and hp boost on passive. Brutes also have access to Darkest Night which is a whooping -20% damage on all affected foes.
Of course the very higher +res cap on Brute will be extremely meaningfull on trials/TF with proper buffs.
Damagewise you will obviously do more with a Scrapper.
Tho, Shield Charge isnt a godlike power anymore. Its great but it doesnt recharge very fast and it shouldnt be the reason why you roll /shield (AAO is). It cannot crit and is affected by fury but its damage cap (I believe) is only +400% even for brute.
I read AAO and Soul Drain benefits for for Scrapper with higher damage scale. Its true but Brutes have very higher damage bonus cap and on a scrapper both AAO and Soul Drain are pretty much useless whenever Fulcrum Shift hits.
AAO also generates A LOT of threat, which benefits more on a Brute.
Scrapper will have higher ST damage but Brutes have access to Gloom to remplace Life Drain and have a stronger DPA string.
All in all, Brutes are quite noticably tougher if you like to play on groups, trials and such.
In extremely high buff situation the damage will be higher on the scrapper but close on the brute, the survivability will be very higher on the brute.
Scrapper will be pretty higher damage and quite even suvivability if you mostly to solo.
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I understand the numbers and I understand what's going on, but what I've been saying is that in most avenues, brutes simply have better choices offered to them. Packing, say, a FA or an ELA and soft capping those offers fairly high damage (in FA's case) while making better use of the higher resist cap on brutes. |
Originally Posted by magikwand
You had me until you dropped this baby. Just because sd for brutes isn't as offensive as sd for scrappers doesn't mean it is one of the worst sets available for brutes. It just means that it doesn't match the damage output of scrapper sd. I have a lvl 50 well built shield scrapper and a brute. I enjoy what each brings to the table, and I never feel inferior playing one over the other.
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Believe it or not, short of possessing insane resists, having higher HP can become a liability in incarnate trials than not. If both targets get hit by an attack that would one shot either, the lower HP character has a much easier time getting back to full HP to immediately negate the next hit. This may seem like a bunk strategy, but works out more often than not if you're at the defense cap because the odds of someone hitting you consistently are slim to none. As for Darkest Night, if teams are moving slow enough to merit you using it, you as a shield are probably more concerned about tanking or are fighting an AV, wherein DN gets destroyed by Debuff Resist. Scrappers have a very useful alternative (Shadow Meld) that puts them to a soft cap easily, and also have access to Hibernate should they need or want it.
The other big thing is that there are more defense buffers than resist buffers, something that lowers the worth of SD in the hands of a brute. Rocking Fiery Aura or Electric Aura tend to create a bigger win situation because resists allow you to soak more on top of easily being buffed to the defense cap from various sources.
I'm not trying to say that Shield Defense is a bad set, far from it. The thing is that in the hands of a brute and in the hands of IOs, taking any other set and making it godly is much more cost effective and just flat out better in terms of survivability and in some cases, damage. Scrappers get a massive return from AAO compared to a brute (damage cap lower, higher base mods) as do tankers for the same reason, plus with just being insanely more survivable in comparison. Brutes straddle the middle of not having the amazing damage of a scrapper, nor the decent survivability of Shield (compared to a tanker) beyond a handful of numbers and abilities that are neither permanent nor all that reliable.
I'm willing to admit that I plain don't like Brute Shield Defense, so my opinion is a bit biased, but I've never seen it as amazing beyond farming situations where most any farm sets gibs things simply because the farm is built for them. Take it as you will.
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I dont think the topic is whats the best secondary for a brute. Even if you are right about fire bringing more survivability AND damage if you manage to soft cap its def.| I understand the numbers and I understand what's going on, but what I've been saying is that in most avenues, brutes simply have better choices offered to them. Packing, say, a FA or an ELA and soft capping those offers fairly high damage (in FA's case) while making better use of the higher resist cap on brutes. |
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| If both targets get hit by an attack that would one shot either, the lower HP character has a much easier time getting back to full HP to immediately negate the next hit. |
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| As for Darkest Night, if teams are moving slow enough to merit you using it, you as a shield are probably more concerned about tanking or are fighting an AV, wherein DN gets destroyed by Debuff Resist. |
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| The other big thing is that there are more defense buffers than resist buffers, something that lowers the worth of SD in the hands of a brute. Rocking Fiery Aura or Electric Aura tend to create a bigger win situation because resists allow you to soak more on top of easily being buffed to the defense cap from various sources. |
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| Scrappers get a massive return from AAO compared to a brute (damage cap lower, higher base mods) as do tankers for the same reason, plus with just being insanely more survivable in comparison. |
Higher damage cap on brute make them quite harder to cap and than in group situation benefits more or these 2 powers.
AAO also is incredibly high aggro. My scrapper died at +3 I-shift on many trials because AVs sudendly decided to roll twice under 8%. I am not sure how much a Scrapper is expected to handle this kind of threat generation.
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The difference is that it takes a lot to softcap an FA or ELA, while Shield is already packing a decent amount of defense (and actually has Defense Debuff Resist), so the Shield can softcap and get good enhancement values and recharge set bonuses and whatnot. You're also only talking about softcapping S/L or just Melee or something like that, while the Shield can softcap all three positions.|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
I understand the numbers and I understand what's going on, but what I've been saying is that in most avenues, brutes simply have better choices offered to them. Packing, say, a FA or an ELA and soft capping those offers fairly high damage (in FA's case) while making better use of the higher resist cap on brutes.
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Sure, FA and ELA have an advantage in the fact that while it is possible to get 45% defense purely from IOs and power pools, you can't get any respectable amount of resist from the same sources. But to treat it like there isn't an opportunity cost is misleading.
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The Scrapper can exceed what Brute Shield Charge does at its damage cap (400.4) with 100% slotting and around 66% extra +dam. That's almost a joke to hit with AAO and/or Soul Drain.|
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
Something to note about Shield Charge is that it is not effected by Critical but is affected by Fury.
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I mentioned Tankers because they'll have even more hit points than the Brute, more resistance numbers, and are much easier to softcap. My SD/SS Tanker is routinely damage-capped with stacked Rage, AAO, and slotting, and Tankers get Brute Patron Pools and have higher base damage - which affects Shield Charge.
The reasons to want Shield Defense - AAO and Shield Charge - are minimalized by the Brute AT's lower base damage, the permanent +damage that Fury provides giving a lower percentage boost in damage dealt compared to the other ATs, and the pet damage cap that Shield Charge has preventing Fury from boosting it into actually being comparable to the higher base damage the other ATs get.
Or, in other words, what I said before: there is no reason to make a Shield Brute, unless you simply don't like Scrappers or Tankers.
And this is from someone who prefers Brutes to either. The set's strengths just don't work as well for them as it does for Scrappers, Tankers, and - if they had it - would for Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Nitpick: regen is increased, the value of the heal from Siphon does not. It's larger for Brutes based on their hp modifier, but not based on whatever max hp you manage to get out of the build - a level 50 Scrapper at the hp cap will have the same heal as a level 50 Scrapper without any +hp powers, set bonuses, or accolades.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I also think what I said above replies to most of this, 2700 to 2800 HP is a very large gap, which also increases Regen and heals from Siphon.
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And again, a Tanker will have a larger heal value and more survivability, and will be able to build for much better recharge while still maintaining softcapped defense values.
If you want damage, go Scrapper. If you want survivability, go Tanker. If you want to go with a different secondary, go Brute.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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You're right. My mistake.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Nitpick: regen is increased, the value of the heal from Siphon does not. It's larger for Brutes based on their hp modifier, but not based on whatever max hp you manage to get out of the build - a level 50 Scrapper at the hp cap will have the same heal as a level 50 Scrapper without any +hp powers, set bonuses, or accolades.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
And again, a Tanker will have a larger heal value and more survivability, and will be able to build for much better recharge while still maintaining softcapped defense values.
If you want damage, go Scrapper. If you want survivability, go Tanker. If you want to go with a different secondary, go Brute. |
AAO might do less for a Brute, but that doesn't mean it does nothing at all.
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This is the funniest thing I read all day, and also the worst logic ever.|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
Believe it or not, short of possessing insane resists, having higher HP can become a liability in incarnate trials than not. If both targets get hit by an attack that would one shot either, the lower HP character has a much easier time getting back to full HP to immediately negate the next hit.
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2000 HP character gets hit by 1200 damage = 800 HP
1800 HP character gets hit by 1200 damage = 600 HP
If both get healed for the same amount, say 600 HP, then the bigger HP character would still have more health than the smaller one. Having max HP is in no way a liability. Just because it may take more healing to get to max HP on the higher HP character does not mean than it is less likely to survive the next hit.
The reason that it's so funny is because it actually takes the same amount of healing to restore full HP either way.
If either character gets hit with the same amount of damage, they would both still need the same amount healed back.
If both characters were to get one shot, even if they both only got healed back up to 1800 HP, they would still both have 1800 HP. There is no liability here at all.
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Except that you said /sd for brutes is the worst set a brute can take...|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
I'm not trying to say that Shield Defense is a bad set, far from it. The thing is that in the hands of a brute and in the hands of IOs, taking any other set and making it godly is much more cost effective and just flat out better in terms of survivability and in some cases, damage.
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I won't comment on most of the hilarity of your post, as others have taken most of what you said and provided reasonable discourse.
If you are making the argument that scrappers that have /sd don't generate crazy aggro, you must not be playing the same version of /sd for scrappers that I am. My /sd scrap pulls aggo off of brutes and tankers on a regular basis. Not saying that it is permanent aggro, but she generates enough aggro that she is regularly the center of attention on teams of all types.
I think I can see why you don't like /sd for brutes. There is no math or logic to the reasoning, its just that you plain don't like it for brutes (as you clearly stated toward the end of your post). And you know what? That's fine. You don't have to like everything that's available for brutes or any other AT. I just hope you realize that your evaluation on how well brutes perform with /sd is flawed.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Except you fail to realize that on the high end, most things do enough damage to easily break 2k. Ignoring things like Kitty's Got Claws, Vicki alone can crit for 1.8k-2k on an Invuln brute, nevermind the big guys (Siege/Nightstar/AM/Marauder). Tough isn't gonna save you from their damage types, and getting hit once is more than likely enough to floor your HP to 1.|
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
This is the funniest thing I read all day, and also the worst logic ever.
2000 HP character gets hit by 1200 damage = 800 HP 1800 HP character gets hit by 1200 damage = 600 HP If both get healed for the same amount, say 600 HP, then the bigger HP character would still have more health than the smaller one. Having max HP is in no way a liability. Just because it may take more healing to get to max HP on the higher HP character does not mean than it is less likely to survive the next hit. The reason that it's so funny is because it actually takes the same amount of healing to restore full HP either way. If either character gets hit with the same amount of damage, they would both still need the same amount healed back. If both characters were to get one shot, even if they both only got healed back up to 1800 HP, they would still both have 1800 HP. There is no liability here at all. |
Admittedly, this gap is much more noticeable with a widow than a scrapper, but if you're rocking 2.5k HP and get one shot (something extremely viable in the current design philosophy the devs are big on), you're several levels more hosed then someone with 1.8k HP who ate the same. This is also why Regen can be seen as a very strong set on Scrappers if you pair it with something that soft caps them, since odds are they can just integrate/heal anything back up almost immediately.
Again, high damage is a very large reality on the high end right now, it's just hard to notice due to most trials being a veritable steamrolling. This then brings up Siolfir's point where scrappers have better damage, tanks have better survivability, and brutes are just "Bad Fiery Aura."
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I'm not going to try to defend the statement that more hit points is a liability in any other case, but the example was in dealing with the one-shot code. This situation is so rare that it really does break the rules and you're better off hitting your max hp at a lower number.|
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
This is the funniest thing I read all day, and also the worst logic ever.
2000 HP character gets hit by 1200 damage = 800 HP 1800 HP character gets hit by 1200 damage = 600 HP If both get healed for the same amount, say 600 HP, then the bigger HP character would still have more health than the smaller one. Having max HP is in no way a liability. Just because it may take more healing to get to max HP on the higher HP character does not mean than it is less likely to survive the next hit. The reason that it's so funny is because it actually takes the same amount of healing to restore full HP either way. If either character gets hit with the same amount of damage, they would both still need the same amount healed back. If both characters were to get one shot, even if they both only got healed back up to 1800 HP, they would still both have 1800 HP. There is no liability here at all. |
Hypothetical example:
1800 hp Brute.
1500 hp Scrapper.
1100 hp Corruptor.
Some autohit attack deals 2000 damage of an unresisted type. It'll recharge in 10 seconds.
One shot code kicks in, leaving all at 1 hp.
Any further attacks coming in cause the character to die. None of the characters have the max hp to survive getting hit by the attack at anything less than their hp cap. At the hp cap, they live at 1 hp.
What was being said was that in this case, the character that can get to the cap earliest is the "safest". The Corruptor needs to get 1099 hp back in 10 seconds, thus needing the least amount of healing and/or regen to hit the cap. The Scrapper needs to get 1499 hp back, and the Brute 1799.
Is that a normal environment for the game? Hell, no! But is it a rare and cherry-picked case where having lower max hp actually means it's easier to survive? Sure.
As a side note, "sufficient" survivability is all that's needed to take and hold aggro for a team. Most of the /SD Scrappers I've seen have plenty to run at +4/x8, and AAO means that they hold aggro just as well as the Brutes. Those observations drastically affect my feelings on the set for Brutes - who in general I prefer to Scrappers, which are preferable to Tankers. Just not for Shield Defense.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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For the record, I said one of, not the worst. Pre change EA is absolutely god awful for a brute (for almost anyone), and Granite is kinda just...yea. This isn't even counting the horror that came from pre change Fiery or Invuln. My reason for putting it at worst isn't entirely due to math, but simply due to the fact that there's just better options.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
Except that you said /sd for brutes is the worst set a brute can take...
I won't comment on most of the hilarity of your post, as others have taken most of what you said and provided reasonable discourse. If you are making the argument that scrappers that have /sd don't generate crazy aggro, you must not be playing the same version of /sd for scrappers that I am. My /sd scrap pulls aggo off of brutes and tankers on a regular basis. Not saying that it is permanent aggro, but she generates enough aggro that she is regularly the center of attention on teams of all types. I think I can see why you don't like /sd for brutes. There is no math or logic to the reasoning, its just that you plain don't like it for brutes (as you clearly stated toward the end of your post). And you know what? That's fine. You don't have to like everything that's available for brutes or any other AT. I just hope you realize that your evaluation on how well brutes perform with /sd is flawed. |
As it stands, there's no reason TO take Shield on a brute that you couldn't otherwise apply the exact same logic to a Scrapper and Brute. Tankers have pretty much the same attack sets and gain as big/more of a benefit out of it, and the Scrapper argument was said above.
My friend and I are wanting to make a duo of DM/SD toons, but I am not sure if we should go with Brutes or Scrappers. I am leaning toward scrappers, any advice?