Dark Melee/Shield Defense...Scrapper or Brute?
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-07-28 18:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I do enjoy my 12% more HP every once in a while. There have been a few times on a trial where I was out of insps and down to 100ish HP for quite a while before I died. The scrapper would have been dead in most of those situations. On my shield scrapper, sometimes I get mad because if I would have had darkest night and/or more HP, I wouldn't have died. On my brute, I never say "Man I wish I did more damage." Obviously, this is where opinion enters. I don't mind trading a little damage for a little extra survivability.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
When my SD scrapper can stand in the middle of a mob just as long as a tank/brute, that, to me, means just as tough. HP don't mean sh** if they aren't going down..... So enjoy your 12% hp if you need them because my scrapper don't.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
YOU are the one that said take a softcap scrapper vs. a softcap brute (then you go on to mention that you need) Darkest Night, Siphon Life and all that other crap. Well, if you're talking about equal to, then drop all that other crap and you will see the difference in the 2. I simply replied to someone that a softcap SD scrapper was just as tough as a tank/brute without all your other powers mentioned, it is. I can PL you one to see with your own eyes and stop sipping the haterade.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
And to say that them dieing faster from my scrapper than from your brute DOES help suvivability. How would it not? They die, they can't attack. duh
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Also, just so you don't generalize everything I said again, I am only referring to the topic of the thread. Scrapper DM/SD vs. Brute DM/SD.
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*shrug* I'm not arguing about whether or not more hp means more survivability or not; what I'm suggesting is that once you reach the survivability point where the mobs die before you in 99.999% of the in-game situations - which most well-built DM/SD Scrappers can achieve - then anything beyond that is completely irrelevant in discussing anything beyond corner cases.|
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
For some reason, these people dont understand that that having more HP = more survivability, assuming you are talking about the same power set and same defensive numbers.
I can see the logic behind thinking that the damage you lose is not worth the extra surviability, at which point that would be an opinion. Stating the SD scrapper is just as survivable as an SD Brute is just being ignorant. Edited because people don't know how to stay on topic and take everything you say out of context. |
For what it's worth, I was using the whole "fewer hp/lower hp cap" to push for Stalker changes a while back. I think I get the argument.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I wasn't aiming this particularly at you, just in general. And I totally understand the opinion where if you get to a point where it doesn't really matter, then the extra survivability is just a waste. For the most part, I agree with you. There are situations, however, where the extra survivability is nice. I have slotted taunt on my SD brute and tank with him quite often. Darkest Night dropped on a large group not only lowers the damage they do, but if I get defense debuffed then the extra -to hit really helps out.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
*shrug* I'm not arguing about whether or not more hp means more survivability or not; what I'm suggesting is that once you reach the survivability point where the mobs die before you in 99.999% of the in-game situations - which most well-built DM/SD Scrappers can achieve - then anything beyond that is completely irrelevant in discussing anything beyond corner cases.
For what it's worth, I was using the whole "fewer hp/lower hp cap" to push for Stalker changes a while back. I think I get the argument. |
Honestly if someone were to ask me, I would steer them toward the scrapper. Most people are only interested in damage and killing things. Outside of incarnate trials and defense debuff, the extra HP and and darkest night provide little benefit to yourself. But they do make a difference in incarnate trials and if you decide to tank. It is also important to keep in mind that Darkest Night also helps your entire team stay alive, not just yourself. I did not make my brute intended for uber l33t damage, I made him to do good damage, to tank, and to help increase the survivability of the team. He has something to add to any team, not just damage.
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"Alot of, what i could have said is".... Well, it's hard for people to determine what you mean if it's not what you mean. |
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
A brute is more durable than a scrapper if you're talking about the same power set. You're the one who doesn't seem to understand. Obviously a softcapped character is more survivable than one who isn't. You're the one who doesnt understand that the point of the thread is an SD scrapper vs. an SD brute, not that brutes are all more survivable than all scrappers or that all scrappers do more damage than all brutes. You can't compare a power set to itself in different ATs if you're going to start bringing different power sets in to the mix.
And I didn't say people were ignorant for not agreeing with me. I said "Stating the SD scrapper is just as survivable as a Brute is just being ignorant. " Perhaps I should have said "Stating the SD scrapper is just as survivable as a SD Brute is just being ignorant. " Since that was the topic of the thread, I guess I thought people were just smart enough to understand that. It's not my fault you wanted to go off topic. If the (SD) brute has the same exact defensive numbers as the (SD) scrapper but the brute has 200ish more HP, it is more survivable. That is fact, not opinion. Couple that with Darkest night, and it gets a whole lot more survivable. When I said "The fire aura brute does have more Hp than the scrapper" I meant that "The fire aura brute does have more Hp than the scrapper version of fire aura." Comparing the survivability of and SD anything to an FA anything is ridiculous, obviously the SD character will be more survivable. FA isn't meant to be invincible, just to kill stuff fast. Also as an FYI, a SD scrapper has MORE Hp than an FA brute assuming the scrapper took and slotted True Grit and equal set bonuses. You're the one who started generalizing things instead of just scrapper SD vs. brute SD. I suppose "For some reason, these people dont understand that that having more HP = more survivability" was also too general for you. You took what I said out of context, and assumed I was talking about everything in general. Obviously I meant "For some reason, these people dont understand that that having more HP = more survivability, assuming all other defensive numbers are the same." Once again, the thread is about Shield Defense only. There is no reason to assume I was saying that more HP means a character is automatically more survivable than anything else. If that was the case, everyone would just roll Invuln and run perma dull pain. |
It must be too general for me because if you want to throw in all the Epics to help brutes with their surviving, then you have to count the more damage from scrappers helping theirs. The extra 200 or more hp of damage the scrappers deal easily makes up for 200 more hp the brutes get because like i said, ot don't matter if you have 5000hp vs. 500hp, if they don't go down, IT DONT MATTER. Period.
I would point out that the "Tankability" is not a factor in the OP's question. He asked which was better Scrapper or Brute, not Brute or Tanker. A Tanker is the better Tank. Scrappers are better for damage and Brutes are the happy medium.
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
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Go with what you want to play. [/thread]
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Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
I am leaning toward scrappers, any advice?
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Alot falls under "better" though. Im sure he don't want a Brute or Scrapper faceplanting every mob, ya know.
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Originally Posted by SBeaudway
I would point out that the "Tankability" is not a factor in the OP's question. He asked which was better Scrapper or Brute, not Brute or Tanker. A Tanker is the better Tank. Scrappers are better for damage and Brutes are the happy medium.
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You seem to think that scrappers do like ten times the damage of brutes. I'm not going to argue that the scrapper is the better choice, the entire thread I've been saying how it does indeed have more advantages. I'm just not going to let people say that the SD shield scrapper is just as survivable, when in fact it isn't. It may be just as survivable most of the time, but that still doesn't cut it.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
"Alot of, what i could have said is".... Well, it's hard for people to determine what you mean if it's not what you mean.
It must be too general for me because if you want to throw in all the Epics to help brutes with their surviving, then you have to count the more damage from scrappers helping theirs. The extra 200 or more hp of damage the scrappers deal easily makes up for 200 more hp the brutes get because like i said, ot don't matter if you have 5000hp vs. 500hp, if they don't go down, IT DONT MATTER. Period. |
The problem with scrapper epics is that the single target attacks generally lower DPS for DM, although fireball is a really good AoE. I believe brutes even have access to fireball as well, so that's a moot point.
Brute DPS is actually enhanced by patron pools (Gloom), gets a great debuff (Darkest Night), and a modest AoE (Dark Obliteration). If you don't need the debuff or single target, you can go Mu Mastery and still get better AoE DPS than the scrapper would have. Ball Lightning and Electric fences do modest damage, and the two attacks will proc reactive more than fireball by itself.
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Meh, at this point, who cares? I know what my scrapper can do vs. the same 2ndary of the brute version. I have both IO'd the same. If someone don't have both then they can't really argue either way. All they can do is speculate how long one will live vs. the other. Just hug it out and move on. :P|
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
You seem to think that scrappers do like ten times the damage of brutes. I'm not going to argue that the scrapper is the better choice, the entire thread I've been saying how it does indeed have more advantages. I'm just not going to let people say that the SD shield scrapper is just as survivable, when in fact it isn't. It may be just as survivable most of the time, but that still doesn't cut it.
The problem with scrapper epics is that the single target attacks generally lower DPS for DM, although fireball is a really good AoE. I believe brutes even have access to fireball as well, so that's a moot point. Brute DPS is actually enhanced by patron pools (Gloom), gets a great debuff (Darkest Night), and a modest AoE (Dark Obliteration). If you don't need the debuff or single target, you can go Mu Mastery and still get better AoE DPS than the scrapper would have. Ball Lightning and Electric fences do modest damage, and the two attacks will proc reactive more than fireball by itself. |
And there may be a reason that scrappers don't get Darkest Night when they switch to red. Wonder why?
Because they can't? Scrappers don't have access to darkest night. Also, I have 2 shield scrappers and a shield brute, ioed about the sme.
It's because scrappers get two better survivability tools then brutes in their epics: Hibernate and Shadow Meld. I'm not entirely sure why Darkest Night has been heralded as some sort of holy grail of survivability when it has an obnoxiously long cast time, the tohit gets resisted into the dust, and the -damage isn't gonna be topping charts. Meanwhile, you have a complete invulnerability and a huge +defense that will compensate for any cascade failure you receive.
You don't take soul mastery on a brute for Darkest Night, you take it for gloom and Dark Obliteration. Darkest Night is just a nice little cherry on top of an already great set. Hibernate and Shadow Meld are both substantially better survivability tools in the long run, so I'm not sure why they've been ignored.
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Because Darkest Night is far superior to bother Hibernate and Shadow Meld combined?|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
It's because scrappers get two better survivability tools then brutes in their epics: Hibernate and Shadow Meld. I'm not entirely sure why Darkest Night has been heralded as some sort of holy grail of survivability when it has an obnoxiously long cast time, the tohit gets resisted into the dust, and the -damage isn't gonna be topping charts. Meanwhile, you have a complete invulnerability and a huge +defense that will compensate for any cascade failure you receive.
You don't take soul mastery on a brute for Darkest Night, you take it for gloom and Dark Obliteration. Darkest Night is just a nice little cherry on top of an already great set. Hibernate and Shadow Meld are both substantially better survivability tools in the long run, so I'm not sure why they've been ignored. |
Shadow Meld on a character already capped on Defense is what we like to call in the business "A wasted power choice".
Hibernate is nice, just not as nice as Darkest Night. If something is beating you down to the point that you need to use Hibernate, then Hibernate is only going to be buying you a little more time. Darkest Night could be the difference between something that could damage you to the point of needing to use Hibernate and then dying anyway or making the damage inconsequential.
You are seriously downplaying the effects of a -20% damage buff. even ignoring the -tohit property it is still ridiculously powerful.
Also you bash Darkest Night for its 3.5 second cast time, when Shadow Meld's is 3.15. Not really a big difference there. Shadow Meld is also useless if you're already softcapped, and incarnate trials you would have to hit it multiple times a fight to get the same benefit as darkest night all the time. Not to mention it isn't even perma. Even if the -to hit is resisted, -20% damage is nothing to sneeze at. Do not forget that Darkest Night benefits your entire team, not just yourself.
I'm not saying shadow meld is a bad power at all, it's very awesome for resist/regen based sets but loses a lot of its usefulness for defense based that are already capped toons in normal content. I love it on my WP scrapper.
Not really going to touch hibernate; it's a good oh **** power and it can save you, but shadowmeld and darkest night will prevent that situation from ever happening while still allowing you to kill stuff.
Besides those powers, the the damage attacks in both of those pools pale in comparison to Gloom and Dark Obliteration. Soul Mastery is a really good patrol for damage and survivability on a brute. The single target, AoE, and survival tool are all top knotch.
I'd rather have melt armor for the resist and defense debuff and fiahbahl anyways. I don't need shadow meld and id rather tear down their defense and resist so my already strong toon just does even more damage. I don't think i'd really need a minus tohit toggle. By the time i cast the toggle, the mobs would probably be dead anyways.
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I would like to have shadowmeld on my regen scrapper, tho. High Regens and 20% defense buff sounds lovely. |
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
Also you bash Darkest Night for its 3.5 second cast time, when Shadow Meld's is 3.15. Not really a big difference there. Shadow Meld is also useless if you're already softcapped, and incarnate trials you would have to hit it multiple times a fight to get the same benefit as darkest night all the time. Not to mention it isn't even perma. Even if the -to hit is resisted, -20% damage is nothing to sneeze at. Do not forget that Darkest Night benefits your entire team, not just yourself.
I'm not saying shadow meld is a bad power at all, it's very awesome for resist/regen based sets but loses a lot of its usefulness for defense based that are already capped toons in normal content. I love it on my WP scrapper. Not really going to touch hibernate; it's a good oh **** power and it can save you, but shadowmeld and darkest night will prevent that situation from ever happening while still allowing you to kill stuff. Besides those powers, the the damage attacks in both of those pools pale in comparison to Gloom and Dark Obliteration. Soul Mastery is a really good patrol for damage and survivability on a brute. The single target, AoE, and survival tool are all top knotch. |
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Yeah it's especially nice for regen.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
I would like to have shadowmeld on my regen scrapper, tho. High Regens and 20% defense buff sounds lovely.
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Is there any way we can see the builds of these awesome DM/SD scrappers and Brutes? I would like to see what the Similarities and Differences of each build.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
A brute is more durable than a scrapper if you're talking about the same power set. You're the one who doesn't seem to understand. Obviously a softcapped character is more survivable than one who isn't. You're the one who doesnt understand that the point of the thread is an SD scrapper vs. an SD brute, not that brutes are all more survivable than all scrappers or that all scrappers do more damage than all brutes. You can't compare a power set to itself in different ATs if you're going to start bringing different power sets in to the mix.
And I didn't say people were ignorant for not agreeing with me. I said "Stating the SD scrapper is just as survivable as a Brute is just being ignorant. " Perhaps I should have said "Stating the SD scrapper is just as survivable as a SD Brute is just being ignorant. " Since that was the topic of the thread, I guess I thought people were just smart enough to understand that. It's not my fault you wanted to go off topic. If the (SD) brute has the same exact defensive numbers as the (SD) scrapper but the brute has 200ish more HP, it is more survivable. That is fact, not opinion. Couple that with Darkest night, and it gets a whole lot more survivable.
When I said "The fire aura brute does have more Hp than the scrapper" I meant that "The fire aura brute does have more Hp than the scrapper version of fire aura." Comparing the survivability of and SD anything to an FA anything is ridiculous, obviously the SD character will be more survivable. FA isn't meant to be invincible, just to kill stuff fast. Also as an FYI, a SD scrapper has MORE Hp than an FA brute assuming the scrapper took and slotted True Grit and equal set bonuses.
You're the one who started generalizing things instead of just scrapper SD vs. brute SD.
I suppose "For some reason, these people dont understand that that having more HP = more survivability" was also too general for you. You took what I said out of context, and assumed I was talking about everything in general. Obviously I meant "For some reason, these people dont understand that that having more HP = more survivability, assuming all other defensive numbers are the same."
Once again, the thread is about Shield Defense only. There is no reason to assume I was saying that more HP means a character is automatically more survivable than anything else. If that was the case, everyone would just roll Invuln and run perma dull pain.