Discussion: The Intrepid Informer: Power Set Proliferation
By
Alef_infinity,
Posted on: 2011-07-06 10:45 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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RoF does not deny others the use of their powers.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
All true, ego-tripping is not confined to meleers, sometimes I get bummed about KB on my rangers too, especially my Fire/Fire/Force blaster, they always seem to use KB right as I use Rain of Fire.
 If only they would just stand and admire my beauty and the devastation I will cause to our enemies. Damn those other players for wanting to use their powers too! |
KB Scatter denies the maximal use of RoF, or any AoE effect/attack.
They should not stand there and admire anything. They should get their own AoEs and add to the destruction of enemies, instead of adding to our enemies lifespans.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Sure, their attacks cause damage and add control, but MINE are so much more productive! How can they not understand? Why do they think they should be able to play too?
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Are you sure you don't want to help our targets survive longer? Whose side are you on anyway?
KB = enemy survival boost.
But hey, the devs finally got around to allowing me to turn off those griefing tools people like to call "group fly" and "group teleport".
Now all the players who like those powers have been denied their fun.
Who knows, maybe they will one day turn off the griefing tool that is KB.
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Sir.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
RoF does not deny others the use of their powers.
KB Scatter denies the maximal use of RoF, or any AoE effect/attack. They should not stand there and admire anything. They should get their own AoEs and add to the destruction of enemies, instead of adding to our enemies lifespans. Why control them, when they could be dead instead? Are you sure you don't want to help our targets survive longer? Whose side are you on anyway? KB = enemy survival boost. But hey, the devs finally got around to allowing me to turn off those griefing tools people like to call "group fly" and "group teleport". Now all the players who like those powers have been denied their fun. Who knows, maybe they will one day turn off the griefing tool that is KB. |
Calm down.
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I used the minimum required level of smileys in that post (1).
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
Sir.
Calm down. |
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Weird. Seeing as how the KB powers that do damage can kill enemies, how is KB an enemy survival boost?|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
RoF does not deny others the use of their powers.
KB Scatter denies the maximal use of RoF, or any AoE effect/attack. They should not stand there and admire anything. They should get their own AoEs and add to the destruction of enemies, instead of adding to our enemies lifespans. Why control them, when they could be dead instead? Are you sure you don't want to help our targets survive longer? Whose side are you on anyway? KB = enemy survival boost. But hey, the devs finally got around to allowing me to turn off those griefing tools people like to call "group fly" and "group teleport". Now all the players who like those powers have been denied their fun. Who knows, maybe they will one day turn off the griefing tool that is KB. |
KBed followed up by another KB power enemy is dead. :O
Or do those non KB powers one shot enemies all the time?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Now a days its easier to avoid due to IOs and the incarnate powers but I know back in the day knockback used to be a death sentence for certain builds. This was back in the day when we were real heroes and we could herd the entire map into 1 trash can and have a single blaster nuke them all. If someone decide to energy torrent all your herd before you dumpster dived almost all your defense was gone so the whole map could open fire from range and insta kill you.
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Originally Posted by Moly
Its ingrained in the community unfortunately. In almost two years of playing I've never seen the mythical team wipe due to KB, even when KB powers were being aggressively used. Go figure.
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Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Many KB powers do no, or low damage.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Weird. Seeing as how the KB powers that do damage can kill enemies, how is KB an enemy survival boost?
KBed followed up by another KB power enemy is dead. :O Or do those non KB powers one shot enemies all the time? |
Those non-KB powers don't need to one shot anybody.
It only takes 1 person with Kb scatter to negatively impact the efficiency and use of AoE debuffs and damage powers of 7 other people.
How does your example answer the situation I posted earlier, where repulsion field is being used on 9CUs to scatter them uselessly?
9CUs have no melee attacks to deny, pushing them away does nothing but increase their lifespan.
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Rag doll physics changes that happened a while back mean you can no longer chain rag doll knockback to use to survive. In addition to that mastermind pets are hard coded to sometimes show mercy to foes that are getting up instead of just out right killing the npc. Those two things definately make it help the mobs more so than it helps the players. Just let it be knocked down and all will be good in the world.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Weird. Seeing as how the KB powers that do damage can kill enemies, how is KB an enemy survival boost?
KBed followed up by another KB power enemy is dead. :O Or do those non KB powers one shot enemies all the time? |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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You should have seen the PLd {self censored} FF/nrg defender that it turned out had never played other than with the friends that PLd him into the low 40s. He had a build with no ally bubbles and a nice set of repels plus the NRG KBs. We were amused when he got himself terminated 3 times with AoE KB, less amused when he caused 2 teamwipes (despite a bit of friendly advice) and then he got kicked.|
Originally Posted by Moly
Its ingrained in the community unfortunately. In almost two years of playing I've never seen the mythical team wipe due to KB, even when KB powers were being aggressively used. Go figure.
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Total team wipes are rare these days with fully IOd out tanks and scrappers and softcapped squishies, but if you play with squishies below the defence softcap, you do still see some "squishywipes" if not team wipes.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Now THAT'S bitter. |
Originally Posted by Minotaur
So fun for you is not actually accomplishing anything, playing with your friends because everybody else boots you for messing up their game, and running back from the hospital unless you run at -1.
What I was talking about is not being super efficient, it's simple good manners on teams and not messing up other peoples' game experience. I actually physically couldn't play a melee toon on a team with you. Why ? I use tab/follow a fair bit for targeting, and my target constantly flying across the screen causing jerky motion of my toon gives me a violent headache after a few minutes. A little I can cope with so ST KB is not an issue, but constant AoE KB = quit team for me and not for reasons of efficiency. AoE KB has got so many other toons killed in my experience, that I avoid it unless it can be used safely/constructively. This means I VERY rarely use it. If you get the dark tank killed because you took a situation he had under control and punted all the mobs he was going to heal off out of range (similar situation with ice tanks and their endurance, toggle dropping because some idiot knocked everything out of EA is not fun), that can be a teamwipe, and all because you want to have your fun, how selfish. Watching a claws/invul scrapper use their cone KB to knock a load of mobs out of invincibilty then get terminated when they all got up and shot him when much of his defence had fallen off was another funny. |
Never happened, not once. No team kicks, no team wipes, nada due to KB. Knowing how to use it is part of the fun.
Using KB does not equal bad player, no matter how much some posters might think it does.
If you don't enjoy KB, IMO, your loss. You have, I hope, people you like to team with just as I do though, so we can both enjoy the game.
The difference is I am not advocating for a change to fundamental mechanic in the game as some players do, I accept that some players like some things I don't but I expect the same courtesy.
IME, the only place that KB is ever discouraged is on these message boards anyway. I have not once on any team in City, ever, had a player say anything about anyone's KB, mine or another players. Some people seem to think that means they are just 1-staring the KB user and then quitting for another reason after a mission. So what? Obviously some players will mesh for any number of reasons where others will not.
As always, it's great to see the hyperbole and bitter angst over KB though.
I know it's never going to be removed, so no matter what, I get to continue to enjoy it.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
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You have not been playing with alot of people then. I have seen many players over my time in City asked not to use knockback. Hell I have even asked some not to use it or be kicked. I think you just need to play outside of your circle of normal friends or teammates and you will see why we ask this of players.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Now THAT'S bitter.
Never happened, not once. No team kicks, no team wipes, nada due to KB. Knowing how to use it is part of the fun. Using KB does not equal bad player, no matter how much some posters might think it does. If you don't enjoy KB, IMO, your loss. You have, I hope, people you like to team with just as I do though, so we can both enjoy the game. The difference is I am not advocating for a change to fundamental mechanic in the game as some players do, I accept that some players like some things I don't but I expect the same courtesy. IME, the only place that KB is ever discouraged is on these message boards anyway. I have not once on any team in City, ever, had a player say anything about anyone's KB, mine or another players. Some people seem to think that means they are just 1-staring the KB user and then quitting for another reason after a mission. So what? Obviously some players will mesh for any number of reasons where others will not. As always, it's great to see the hyperbole and bitter angst over KB though. I know it's never going to be removed, so no matter what, I get to continue to enjoy it. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
See, this is why I don't run anything but level-50 content with close friends and the occasional pug. This way, I don't even have to WORRY about knockback, and most of the time, we're blowing through a 30 minute STF so fast, everything's dying before we even NOTICE the knockback that the 3 Illusion trollers are doing. KB used to bother me when I actually played non TF/Trial content. But then I realized that "normal" content is boring and inefficient for me, so I really don't care about KB anymore. It's just a part of the game that my friends are smart enough to not use stupidly, and that's all I care about.
For everyone else complaining about knockback... It's part of the game. They put it in the game on purpose. It's great for solo-ing, and yes, some people just can't use it right on teams. But if you're running a team that's so bad that knockback gets people killed, you might want to reconsider who you're teaming with. Ask the people politely to wait until the team gets the alpha-strike off before they use their AoE's, or ask them to target the bosses and use ST stuff to help kill them quickly, etc etc. KB can be worked around. Stupidity and stubbornness... Not so much.
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While I am sure if I pugged more the chances of seeing it might rise, I still don't understand the hate for KB.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You have not been playing with alot of people then. I have seen many players over my time in City asked not to use knockback. Hell I have even asked some not to use it or be kicked. I think you just need to play outside of your circle of normal friends or teammates and you will see why we ask this of players.
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*shrug*
I would 1-star and avoid any player that even hinted at kicking someone over KB.
I have left numerous trials, I will say, when the leader got picky over other things, so I have at least seen similar things in game.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Like I said earlier, KB is a 'Double-edged Sword'. If used correctly you can assist your teammates that are squishy and being over run to save both their lives and yours; when at the same time, if used incorrectly, it can result in cases of team-wipe, kicked from team, or whatever the instance may call for. I've been on both sides of the fence when KB is involved, I've been the one using KB and I've been the one kindly asking another player to please avoid using it as much as possible.
The biggest thing to remember here is that it's not KB we all 'disagree' on, it's the player that, even if asked, refuses to oblige and uses it senselessly.
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This |
Originally Posted by starrball
Like I said earlier, KB is a 'Double-edged Sword'. If used correctly you can assist your teammates that are squishy and being over run to save both their lives and yours; when at the same time, if used incorrectly, it can result in cases of team-wipe, kicked from team, or whatever the instance may call for. I've been on both sides of the fence when KB is involved, I've been the one using KB and I've been the one kindly asking another player to please avoid using it as much as possible.
The biggest thing to remember here is that it's not KB we all 'disagree' on, it's the player that, even if asked, refuses to oblige and uses it senselessly. |
The problem is that for every player that uses KB well, there are probably the best part of 100 that don't. Having seen a stormie basically "hurriherd" pretty much every mob that wasn't in the middle of a big room on a sister psyche into a corner and keep it there, it can be great. My experience just says most of the time it isn't. I just happen to mainly play toons that suffer badly from scatter. It's also no fun as a troller to have somebody scatter a tightly packed mob just as you cast the AoE immob that was going to keep them there. Oh, they're all outside the tank's taunt aura and mad at me for the ongoing DoT from the immob.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
KB as a control... it's often far less effective control when used improperly, than the powers it's nullifying such as knockdown/debuff patches like Freezing Rain, or debuff toggles like Darkest Night. Hell on my own Bots/Storm MM I seriously dislike my own minions' KB, to the point where I'm considering a reroll.
Again. Peacebringer spamming Solar Flare, negating Darkest Night and Tar Patch, both of which would have helped people kill more rapidly and safely, as well as Ice Storm which helps those foes die as well. And before you accuse me of egotripping, I'll say this: I was the only Defender on a team full of damage. We didn't gain a tank until later and even then we still had some issues. Judging from the number of times I was using Twilight Grasp to heal people seriously down on health, I'm dead certain it'd have be suffered far more deaths without me.
Not only that, but I don't mind if other people kill the mobs in my patches. I don't expect them to 'sit back and admire' them. I expect them to be in there, killing as well. If they wipe out everything before my Ice Storm even finishes, I'll be perfectly happy. Seriously, go on! Add to the light show with your own powers! And, no, that isn't sarcasm. There're reasons I enjoy playing low-damage support but still setting up others to kill more effectively and safely.
Used intelligently, KB can be very effective. I won't dispute that. But I've witnessed a fair number of occasions where it was used in a problematic fashion.
It's too bad. Peacebringer powers really do look spectacular, especially ones like Solar Flare.
But more related to the topic of this thread: I'm most excited about those buffs to Energy Aura and Poison. Those proliferations are great news in general (and I'm eager to see what I suspect will be Dark Control/Dark Assault for Dominators, but who knows!). But it looks like I'll be getting most actual use out of the buffs. I just rolled a KM/NRG Stalker in anticipation of the changes, and I've got a shelved Thugs/Poison that'll get taken off the backburner. Especially if Noxious Gas (the MM version) gets much-needed fixes as well. And Dark Blasters are tickling my mind as well.
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Yes only 3 powers are affected by Domination/Power Boost...but this is about having the choice.|
Originally Posted by Shadow Wail
For a Controller it is fine by all means. Yes, it can over perform because the AT has a Buff Secondary...right?
Dominators have an Assault Secondary, I don't feel that the Illusion Control set for Controllers will work for a Dominator seeing as it has only 3 control powers that can be affected by either Domination or powerboost and the rest are summons. Just because the set works on one AT doesnt mean that it has to be ported as is, if that were the case Controllers would get Dark Miasma right out of the box with no changes. I want to believe that the devs are working on the complimentary Dark Control for Controllers and Dominators and working a Dark Assault set for Doms Everyone is owed their own opinion |
Also...take a look at Earth and Fire control...4 powers from each are unaffected by Domination.
6 if you count in single target and AoE immobilization...I mean...come on...that's not control...it's an aggro magnet.
To me, Illusion Control as it is (maybe change the self invisibility with an AoE sleep), is more than welcome.
Where pure control fails, Illusion Control gives you the little edge with Phantasm and Phantom Army.
It also gives the Dominator something else besides control and mediocre damage.
The perfect addition for Dominators for me would be an option to swap out stone golem from Earth Control with an AoE confuse and the addition of Illusion Control....and eventually Dark control and Assault...for those who want that.
Just my opinions though.
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I really don't see Sonic working for Masterminds. Sonic is limping now as it is behind the other buff sets. It doesn't have the healing of Thermal, the slows and debuffs of Ice, or the over the top survival of Force Fields. It's simply does not have the buffing power or crowd control to keep pets alive nor does it have a significant enough -res debuffing to make it worth taking if it's damage you're looking for. Freezing Rain and Sleet have more -res than disruption field, have a knockdown component, and -def debuffs. Sonic is even burdened with two pretty useless powers. Sonic Cage and Sonic Repulsion. Although I'm sure someone will speak up about how they took and use both these powers and how they are totally worth getting kicked by annoyed team mates.
In short, if they want this set viable for MMs they are going to have to finally break down and bring it up to speed with current content.
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Let's face facts here...the main way to do that would be to make the -res able to be enhanced.|
Originally Posted by Mid_Boss
I really don't see Sonic working for Masterminds. Sonic is limping now as it is behind the other buff sets. It doesn't have the healing of Thermal, the slows and debuffs of Ice, or the over the top survival of Force Fields. It's simply does not have the buffing power or crowd control to keep pets alive nor does it have a significant enough -res debuffing to make it worth taking if it's damage you're looking for. Freezing Rain and Sleet have more -res than disruption field, have a knockdown component, and -def debuffs. Sonic is even burdened with two pretty useless powers. Sonic Cage and Sonic Repulsion. Although I'm sure someone will speak up about how they took and use both these powers and how they are totally worth getting kicked by annoyed team mates.
In short, if they want this set viable for MMs they are going to have to finally break down and bring it up to speed with current content. |
The problem with that, as I understand things, is that the game can't tell the difference between a - and a + on enhancements. This is why Slow sets in powers like Siphon Speed will cause it to provide an even greater run speed boost. This is why Endmod sets make both buff and debuff powers more powerful.
So, if the devs make the -res enhanceable, they run into three major issues:
1. Hami-O's with +res slotted into these powers will enhance the -res. (From what I understand, this is the very reason the -res is marked unenhanceable to begin with.)
2. There are no -res enhancements, or sets.
3. Alpha Slot powers with +res would boost the -res similar to Hami-O's.
Making things even more complicated is that allowing the -res to be enhanced means that EVERYONE will have to completely revamp their slotting strategy on any character that has a -res power...because they would NOT just do it to Sonic sets.
I may not know as much as some of you, I may have been playing less time, but even I can see that an overhaul of -res is needed...and would likely take up as much Powers Team coding time as it would take Animation coding time to make a full set of whip-based powers...and considering the few whip attacks in Demon Summoning were said to take as much time to animate as entire other powersets with nine powers...
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As far as I know, the tp resistance in Energy Aura still doesnt work. I got tped a few weeks ago many times on my EA stalker. Havent ran into any instances where I get tped lately but you're saying its fixed now? hmmmmm
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
It already does.
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Adding a taunt aura to the mez protection toggle is counter productive to how an EA brute works; the scaling +recharge is a nice idea but this isn't the right power for it.|
Originally Posted by Avatea
Energy Aura Revamp
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At the moment Energy Drain used optimally is a 30% heal every 60s, this functionality is being removed completely. Energize gives a 25% heal and 100% regen for 30s (equating to another 12.5% HP) on a recharge of 120s. We are being forced to take a second power to regain a fraction of the capability of a single one.
Why was it decided that EA needed a nerf?
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For starters, Energy Drain didn't originally have a heal component... it was added in Issue 13, over three years after the set debuted, as a way to balance the underperforming set. Now, a little less than three years after that, they feel the need to balance it further as they proliferate it to new ATs, and they've chosen to move that heal to a different power.|
Originally Posted by Edana
At the moment Energy Drain used optimally is a 30% heal every 60s, this functionality is being removed completely. Energize gives a 25% heal and 100% regen for 30s (equating to another 12.5% HP) on a recharge of 120s. We are being forced to take a second power to regain a fraction of the capability of a single one.
Why was it decided that EA needed a nerf? |
As you mentioned, Energy Drain currently heals 30% (unenhanced) in an "optimal" setting. That means while you're getting punched to paste by 10 enemies all at once before you can even activate it. But it's also completely contextual; if there's no one around you, then it won't heal you in the least.
Now, with Energize, you can heal yourself a guaranteed 25% minimum every 2 minutes, whether you've got 20 dudes surrounding you or zero, AND the new recharge bonus in the taunt aura will shorten that in situations where it's needed more often. Couple that with the fact that the passive +Resistance powers are getting buffed, and you'll find yourself needing that heal less often to boot.
Now, as for your observation that the taunt aura is being placed in the wrong power... well, I can't really say I argue with you there. (Don't toggles with Taunt Auras get dropped automatically when you're mezzed? So... if you get mezzed, won't you need to restart the toggle whose primary purpose is to keep you from getting mezzed in the first place?
) But it's still just a few days after the announcement; the developers very likely have a way to make it work in mind. If it still seems broken once we actually get a chance to play with it, then by all means, scream "Nerf!" all you like. 
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Hmmm...does Evasion get detoggled when the mez protection is beaten?|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
For starters, Energy Drain didn't originally have a heal component... it was added in Issue 13, over three years after the set debuted, as a way to balance the underperforming set. Now, a little less than three years after that, they feel the need to balance it further as they proliferate it to new ATs, and they've chosen to move that heal to a different power.
As you mentioned, Energy Drain currently heals 30% (unenhanced) in an "optimal" setting. That means while you're getting punched to paste by 10 enemies all at once before you can even activate it. But it's also completely contextual; if there's no one around you, then it won't heal you in the least. Now, with Energize, you can heal yourself a guaranteed 25% minimum every 2 minutes, whether you've got 20 dudes surrounding you or zero, AND the new recharge bonus in the taunt aura will shorten that in situations where it's needed more often. Couple that with the fact that the passive +Resistance powers are getting buffed, and you'll find yourself needing that heal less often to boot. Now, as for your observation that the taunt aura is being placed in the wrong power... well, I can't really say I argue with you there. (Don't toggles with Taunt Auras get dropped automatically when you're mezzed? So... if you get mezzed, won't you need to restart the toggle whose primary purpose is to keep you from getting mezzed in the first place? ) But it's still just a few days after the announcement; the developers very likely have a way to make it work in mind. If it still seems broken once we actually get a chance to play with it, then by all means, scream "Nerf!" all you like. |
I can't remember on Invincibility, it's been so long since I played my INV, I don't recall.
Those are the only two sets with a taunt aura that doesn't do anything negative to the enemy outside of taunting them.
Yes, Invicibility gives the user +Def and +tohit, but no negatives to the enemy, whether it's damage or effects.
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The BrandX Collection
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You know what, you're right... I forgot, it only detoggles powers that do an enemy debuff, like Willpower's Rise to the Challenge. My bad. I was just coming back to correct that after thinking about it for a bit. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...does Evasion get detoggled when the mez protection is beaten?
I can't remember on Invincibility, it's been so long since I played my INV, I don't recall. Those are the only two sets with a taunt aura that doesn't do anything negative to the enemy outside of taunting them. Yes, Invicibility gives the user +Def and +tohit, but no negatives to the enemy, whether it's damage or effects. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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But does it detoggle them? I don't remember (in the case of INV) or don't know (in the case of SR) |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
You know what, you're right... I forgot, it only detoggles powers that do an enemy debuff, like Willpower's Rise to the Challenge. My bad. I was just coming back to correct that after thinking about it for a bit.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Sure, their attacks cause damage and add control, but MINE are so much more productive! How can they not understand? Why do they think they should be able to play too?
Also, poorly used KB (aka not used for control but for golfing) is the sign of a dullard.
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