Discussion: The Intrepid Informer: Power Set Proliferation
By
Alef_infinity,
Posted on: 2011-07-06 10:45 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I am aware that the heal was only added to Energy Drain 3 years before they want to remove it. I am also aware of how easy it is to fit 10 foes inside its radius, especially in the incarnate trials. The point still stands that the power is currently a heal and in some cases this scaling heal was the primary reason for rolling a character with this set. |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
For starters, Energy Drain didn't originally have a heal component... it was added in Issue 13, over three years after the set debuted, as a way to balance the underperforming set. Now, a little less than three years after that, they feel the need to balance it further as they proliferate it to new ATs, and they've chosen to move that heal to a different power.
As you mentioned, Energy Drain currently heals 30% (unenhanced) in an "optimal" setting. That means while you're getting punched to paste by 10 enemies all at once before you can even activate it. But it's also completely contextual; if there's no one around you, then it won't heal you in the least. Now, with Energize, you can heal yourself a guaranteed 25% minimum every 2 minutes, whether you've got 20 dudes surrounding you or zero, AND the new recharge bonus in the taunt aura will shorten that in situations where it's needed more often. Couple that with the fact that the passive +Resistance powers are getting buffed, and you'll find yourself needing that heal less often to boot. Now, as for your observation that the taunt aura is being placed in the wrong power... well, I can't really say I argue with you there. (Don't toggles with Taunt Auras get dropped automatically when you're mezzed? So... if you get mezzed, won't you need to restart the toggle whose primary purpose is to keep you from getting mezzed in the first place?  ) But it's still just a few days after the announcement; the developers very likely have a way to make it work in mind. If it still seems broken once we actually get a chance to play with it, then by all means, scream "Nerf!" all you like.  |
It is unlikely in the extreme that the passive resistances are going to be buffed to the point that you will be taking a third less damage than before, and there is no resistance to psi damage, which to this point is mitigated almost purely through the available healing. Energize provides lower burst healing ability and less healing over any longer period of time in the situations a brute is designed to be in. I am not 'screaming' anything yet, I am however calling a nerf a nerf.
I have no doubt that this is not intended as a nerf, but it is first violating the core of the "cottage rule" in completely removing a core ability from a power and then only returning a fraction of that ability in another power that is not available until 7 levels later and that currently there is no reason to take at all. By all means turn conserve power into something worth taking; but to do so by removing a key mechanic from the set is neither following the guidelines that have been emphasised as the reasoning many more borderline powers cannot be redeveloped, nor an improvement to the set as a whole.
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If it is violating the cottage rule, it's not the first time |
Originally Posted by Edana
I am aware that the heal was only added to Energy Drain 3 years before they want to remove it. I am also aware of how easy it is to fit 10 foes inside its radius, especially in the incarnate trials. The point still stands that the power is currently a heal and in some cases this scaling heal was the primary reason for rolling a character with this set.
It is unlikely in the extreme that the passive resistances are going to be buffed to the point that you will be taking a third less damage than before, and there is no resistance to psi damage, which to this point is mitigated almost purely through the available healing. Energize provides lower burst healing ability and less healing over any longer period of time in the situations a brute is designed to be in. I am not 'screaming' anything yet, I am however calling a nerf a nerf. I have no doubt that this is not intended as a nerf, but it is first violating the core of the "cottage rule" in completely removing a core ability from a power and then only returning a fraction of that ability in another power that is not available until 7 levels later and that currently there is no reason to take at all. By all means turn conserve power into something worth taking; but to do so by removing a key mechanic from the set is neither following the guidelines that have been emphasised as the reasoning many more borderline powers cannot be redeveloped, nor an improvement to the set as a whole. |
Also, I'm not sure if it's the key mechanic to the set. As it was added in much later to the set. Or is it the key mechanic now?
Also, are you taking into account Energize's regen, or are you basing this solely off the heal number?
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Oh, and this discussion (including my posts) has failed to mention that Energy Drain will now give a scaling +Def buff per target hit, the way it currenty has a scaling 3% per target Heal. That will further negate the need to heal every 60 seconds as well.
It's definitely a change to the feel of the powerset, but the changes they're making to Energy Drain and Conserve Power/Energize feel like lateral ones at this point. As I mentioned earlier, we'll need to wait and see how it plays for ourselves before we can declare it a nerf or not.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I am also concerned about this change because Energize will come so late in the build. I already dislike that ED came so late. I do agree that I have to wait to see and play the changes before judging, but at first blush I do not like losing a tool I have grown fond of using. |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Oh, and this discussion (including my posts) has failed to mention that Energy Drain will now give a scaling +Def buff per target hit, the way it currenty has a scaling 3% per target Heal. That will further negate the need to heal every 60 seconds as well.
It's definitely a change to the feel of the powerset, but the changes they're making to Energy Drain and Conserve Power/Energize feel like lateral ones at this point. As I mentioned earlier, we'll need to wait and see how it plays for ourselves before we can declare it a nerf or not. |
On my Claws/Elec scrapper, I am seriously underwhelmed with Energize, so that is also coloring my PoV. Energize may be much more useful on my defense capped (and likely incarnate defense capped with the new ED bonus) brute though, so I am trying not to judge before real play testing. This is one of those things where I am feeling really bad about this change, but trying not to let it color my attitude (but still admitting the truth of my concerns).
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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True, it wouldn't be the first time; but removing a capability from a power is supposed to be the last resort. That the set is retaining a healing power shows that having it it not considered a critical balance problem, and the power gaining the scaling defence buff in return would indicate that the power is not considered overpowered. That the changes come at the same time as the powers team is busy and are effectively replacing a unique power and a useless one with two powers already available to be copied from other sets suggests a level of expediency is involved rather than a lack of alternatives.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
If it is violating the cottage rule, it's not the first time
Also, I'm not sure if it's the key mechanic to the set. As it was added in much later to the set. Or is it the key mechanic now? Also, are you taking into account Energize's regen, or are you basing this solely off the heal number? |
Not 'The' but certainly 'A' key mechanic, before the heal was added there was little reason for an Energy Aura character to surround themselves with more than 3 foes at a time as the set lacked any scaling defences (like RttC, Invincibility, Energy Absorption, Dark Regen, etc.) The ability to dive into a full spawn on less than half health and low endurance and (if you survive the animation) being ready to continue fighting is the epitome of Brutish Fury. It turned the set from the very antithesis of brute sets into one that could viably be played both in the original fashion, stealthily and picking targets like a steroidal stalker, and like an aggro seeking maniac.
I was including the regen in Energize's 37.5%, 25% heal, 12.5% from regen over 30s. Though thinking about it as a resist set Electric Armour has a good chance of the heal portion restoring enough health to keep you alive long enough to benefit from the regen portion. Energy Aura, being a defence set, is much more reliant on healing the damage from one spike before the next hits so the regen-healing will not be so reliable.
Honestly, my preference would be to keep ED as is and make Conserve Power something new.
Focused Shield. Give it the same end discount and recharge as Energize, but instead of a heal have it add some resistance all. Either 15% for 30 seconds or 40% for 15 seconds, depending on your goal for the power.
I could see perhaps front-loading some of the ED heal. Make it 10%, non-stacking and then 2% for each enemy in range. That makes the heal 12% for one target and 30% for 10. Alternatively you could make it 15% for one target and 3% for each enemy in range and cap the power at 5 targets (which is much more viable now that the set will also have a taunt aura). There was never an end recovery reason to have a 10 target cap on the power (but you lose some of the possible mitigation from end drain). The latter method gives the heal an 18% to 30% range.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
What i want to know is will the Power Set Proliferation - 3.0 come out before i21 or with i21? Nowhere in the Informer it says with i21! So i would like the Red names to clear this up for me since its bugging me a little bit since i want my poison controller.
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Thank you for saying what I was trying to say much more professionally. |
Originally Posted by Edana
I am aware that the heal was only added to Energy Drain 3 years before they want to remove it. I am also aware of how easy it is to fit 10 foes inside its radius, especially in the incarnate trials. The point still stands that the power is currently a heal and in some cases this scaling heal was the primary reason for rolling a character with this set.
It is unlikely in the extreme that the passive resistances are going to be buffed to the point that you will be taking a third less damage than before, and there is no resistance to psi damage, which to this point is mitigated almost purely through the available healing. Energize provides lower burst healing ability and less healing over any longer period of time in the situations a brute is designed to be in. I am not 'screaming' anything yet, I am however calling a nerf a nerf. I have no doubt that this is not intended as a nerf, but it is first violating the core of the "cottage rule" in completely removing a core ability from a power and then only returning a fraction of that ability in another power that is not available until 7 levels later and that currently there is no reason to take at all. By all means turn conserve power into something worth taking; but to do so by removing a key mechanic from the set is neither following the guidelines that have been emphasised as the reasoning many more borderline powers cannot be redeveloped, nor an improvement to the set as a whole. |
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I heard a rumor about a leaked set of patch notes from Beta, saying that there was still going to be no proliferation again when Proliferation was promised to be an ongoing effort.|
Originally Posted by OmniNogard
What i want to know is will the Power Set Proliferation - 3.0 come out before i21 or with i21? Nowhere in the Informer it says with i21! So i would like the Red names to clear this up for me since its bugging me a little bit since i want my poison controller.
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I bet we'll see this set either with i21, or in a patch shortly after.
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1. Me no like rumors.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
I heard a rumor about a leaked set of patch notes from Beta, saying that there was still going to be no proliferation again when Proliferation was promised to be an ongoing effort.
I bet we'll see this set either with i21, or in a patch shortly after. |
2. I'm hoping a red name will ether break or shine some light on this "rumor".
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I hate rumors as well, and I likely heard it thirdhand or even more distant than that.
You know how these things work. Person A gets Confidential Data P and turns it into Rumor Q, and by the time Person K hears about it it's now Rumor Z and barely even resembles Confidential Data P.
I wouldn't be the least bit shocked to learn that this is part of issue 21, and likely not even a big part considering the whole 'Becoming Free to Play' aspect.
Considering all the other changes that have already been revealed, even in small pieces, proliferation's a Small Thing. I mean, haven't we all heard about a Brand New Powerset known as Time Manipulation that's coming? For all we know, the next buff that everyone wants to have is in that set somewhere, or it could be an even better debuffer than Rad or Traps.
And considering how easily things can be BRO-KEN in Beta, I wouldn't be too shocked if Time Manipulation did have a buggy power right now that makes it a more awesome debuff set than both Rad and Traps combined because of a misplaced decimal or two.
To put that rumour to rest, I believe the UStream Highlights from the day this was announced included some discussion on it being included in i21.
New features being announced (Titan Weapons) or hinted at (Dominator Sets) which are not part of i21 itself have been expressedely stated they are not part of i21.
So no doubt in my mind this is happening i21
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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People are likely mixing up Power Proliferation with titan Weapons and Dominator thing...and some are probably trying to through out mis information on purpose.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
To put that rumour to rest, I believe the UStream Highlights from the day this was announced included some discussion on it being included in i21.
New features being announced (Titan Weapons) or hinted at (Dominator Sets) which are not part of i21 itself have been expressedely stated they are not part of i21. So no doubt in my mind this is happening i21 |
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Very good points. btw sorry if the "Me no like rumors" sounded odd but i was half asleep writing that reply.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
I hate rumors as well, and I likely heard it thirdhand or even more distant than that.
You know how these things work. Person A gets Confidential Data P and turns it into Rumor Q, and by the time Person K hears about it it's now Rumor Z and barely even resembles Confidential Data P. I wouldn't be the least bit shocked to learn that this is part of issue 21, and likely not even a big part considering the whole 'Becoming Free to Play' aspect. Considering all the other changes that have already been revealed, even in small pieces, proliferation's a Small Thing. I mean, haven't we all heard about a Brand New Powerset known as Time Manipulation that's coming? For all we know, the next buff that everyone wants to have is in that set somewhere, or it could be an even better debuffer than Rad or Traps. |
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
To put that rumour to rest, I believe the UStream Highlights from the day this was announced included some discussion on it being included in i21.
New features being announced (Titan Weapons) or hinted at (Dominator Sets) which are not part of i21 itself have been expressedely stated they are not part of i21. So no doubt in my mind this is happening i21 |
I have a small case off A.D.D. so i tend to stop watching after a while if i don't get a chance to see it live.
Going to miss the fun and nice people here at CoH. Feel free to add me on PS3/XBox360
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Avatea just posted in the French forums that this round of Proliferation will be in Issue 21.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...85#post3736585
It's been a while since high school French, but between what I understand and what Babelfish says, it basically says, "The new round of proliferation of specializations will be available with Issue 21, but (something something) not announced yet." I think that bit I don't quite understand was implying that the Proliferation 3.0 announcement wasn't quite ready when the Issue 21 feature list was published.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Given how previous betas have gone, and I'm not in this one, not every feature is likely in at this point. Even if I were shown the most recent beta patch note, I wouldn't believe that is ALL that is in Issue 21. When we get to open beta, at that point I'll be satisfied as to what will and will not be included with the new Issue.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
I heard a rumor about a leaked set of patch notes from Beta, saying that there was still going to be no proliferation again when Proliferation was promised to be an ongoing effort.
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Originally Posted by OmniNogard
1. Me no like rumors.
2. I'm hoping a red name will ether break or shine some light on this "rumor". |
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/15833013
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
To put that rumour to rest, I believe the UStream Highlights from the day this was announced included some discussion on it being included in i21.
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The ustream highlights:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265057
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I think the (something something) is "other features".
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
It's been a while since high school French, but between what I understand and what Babelfish says, it basically says, "The new round of proliferation of specializations will be available with Issue 21, but (something something) not announced yet." I think that bit I don't quite understand was implying that the Proliferation 3.0 announcement wasn't quite ready when the Issue 21 feature list was published.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Actually, now I look back again and I think it says "the release (date) has not yet been announced."
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I think the (something something) is "other features".
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Thanks Devs for the Proliferation nummyness. I am awaiting mor einfo on Time Manip and Poison! I can't wait! I deleted all my filler toons to make room LOL.
Does Darkness Manipulation get Tar Patch?
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Here is the current list of powers from beta (as released on the Facebook friday thing, and subject to change)|
Originally Posted by The Smoking Demon
Does Darkness Manipulation get Tar Patch?
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- Penumbral Grasp
- Smite
- Death Shroud
- Shadow Maul
- Soul Drain
- Touch of Fear
- Dark Consumption
- Dark Pit
- Midnight Grasp
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Would really like to see how brute version of katana perfoms.
I was rushing to work! I forgot to ask about poison! *sobs*
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I would prefer having Energize in place of conserve power, especially since the heal aspect of Energy Drain is lacking somewhat. At lvl 50 on my SS/Elec with IOs included + tier 4 spiritual my Energize heals for 935 and for the next 30 sec I regen 50 hp/sec. I do like the idea of Energy Drain getting the def buff instead. Maybe it would be better for them to put Energy Drain at 35 and place Energize (replacing conserve power) at 28 so people who make Eng Aura brutes/scrappers can have a heal somewhat early on. If that's not possible, investing in Aid Self is always a good idea. It increases survivability of the archtype. Overall I've liked Eng Aura for brutes. I know that its gotten a lot of flack for lacking but I've leveled 2 to 50 (SS/Eng Aura & DM/Eng Aura) and really love them a lot. I actually do some farming on both of these toons and getting that def buff from Energy Drain will be nice in place of the heal.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Oh, and this discussion (including my posts) has failed to mention that Energy Drain will now give a scaling +Def buff per target hit, the way it currenty has a scaling 3% per target Heal. That will further negate the need to heal every 60 seconds as well.
It's definitely a change to the feel of the powerset, but the changes they're making to Energy Drain and Conserve Power/Energize feel like lateral ones at this point. As I mentioned earlier, we'll need to wait and see how it plays for ourselves before we can declare it a nerf or not. |
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