A new itrial every issue? How about no?
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 18:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Actually, I don't think any of the criticism of the incarnate trials themselves, or the reward structure that accompanies it, for the vast majority of this thread, is unreasonable. I disagree with much of it, but not all of it, and either way I think its healthy that those concerns get voiced in some form.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Oh please...
This is merely feedback. Nobody's saying "do this OR ELSE". Please stop trying to strawman. |
BUT
I have this rule on threads: I read them from beginning to end, every single post, before I consider posting a reply or for that matter read more than a post or two. That's true even if I stumble across a thread that is a hundred pages long before I find it. And this thread started here:
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| I'm not disparaging the work done on the trials, nor am I saying that there aren't people who like them and enjoy them. However, I would prefer them to be very occasional content. |
Where the complaints cross the line is when people decide its ok for other people to get what they want, so long as its only taking up the crumbs of the development resources. *Most* of the development resources of this game, even recently have been devoted to content other than the Incarnate trials. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain wrong, and trivially provably wrong. The notion has been gunned down so many times its becoming worth considering making a guide to it. If you don't like them, suggest improvements. Criticize failings even if you don't have specific suggestions for improvements. Complain about the reward structure if that's what bugs you: even I think the emotes and the non-incarnate costume options were probably over the line on merit redemption. Just plain say its not your cup of tea if its just not your cup of tea.
But once you start saying content is undeserving of developer time, even when that time is the minority, you're saying everyone who likes that content is undeserving. Those are fighting words whether you directly intend them to be or not. The statement of intent is meaningless in the face of the meaning of the words. If that is what you mean, say it and be prepared for the inevitable and deserved backlash. If that isn't what is meant, people should stay away from stating what resources the devs should spend on content they just happen not to like.
If people want to have "direction of the game" arguments, that's fine also. But you're declaring open warfare on everyone who disagrees with your interpretation of that direction, or agrees with it but prefers it. No one should act surprised when that discussion inevitably ends up going nuclear, because once again you're not expressing preferences, you're challenging them.
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Can AmazingMoo (and others) PLEASE stop making post crying about the i-costumes being linked to the i-trails? I swear ive seen atleast 4 different post about the same things all created by him/her/it. (I'm prolly wrong but really dont care)
The game has been out for 7 years. Alot of ppl like to play lowbies true, but also alot of ppl dont, Hence Powerleveling and and now END GAME content. Sure you have to grind ( and i use the term loosley compared to ALOT of other MMOs this one is a laugh) a bit for the Merits to gain access to the costumes that once unlocked are ACCOUNT WIDE. Do you realize how big that is? Imagine having to unlock the costume parts for each toon, as you would have to do for gear in another game.
The Devs know this is a game of Alts. The Devs know there has been an outcry for more end content in the game for years now. You respond like a 3 year old in a Toys 'r Us screaming that she wants her Barbie NOW.
Earn your reward and be happy. You dont want to earn it and have everything handed to you be it free addition in the costume creator or new Paragon Store? Tough.
Take your tears elsewhere noone really wants to hear it.
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@spyder-
Spyder's Flame: Fire/Therm Corr- Main
Countless Alts
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Multiple threads by the same people is just an attempt to make their "cause" seem popular and well-supported - these types tried it when the Incarnate system first started, and failed badly.
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Originally Posted by _SPYDER_
Can AmazingMoo (and others) PLEASE stop making post crying about the i-costumes being linked to the i-trails? I swear ive seen atleast 4 different post about the same things all created by him/her/it. (I'm prolly wrong but really dont care)
The game has been out for 7 years. Alot of ppl like to play lowbies true, but also alot of ppl dont, Hence Powerleveling and and now END GAME content. Sure you have to grind ( and i use the term loosley compared to ALOT of other MMOs this one is a laugh) a bit for the Merits to gain access to the costumes that once unlocked are ACCOUNT WIDE. Do you realize how big that is? Imagine having to unlock the costume parts for each toon, as you would have to do for gear in another game. The Devs know this is a game of Alts. The Devs know there has been an outcry for more end content in the game for years now. You respond like a 3 year old in a Toys 'r Us screaming that she wants her Barbie NOW. Earn your reward and be happy. You dont want to earn it and have everything handed to you be it free addition in the costume creator or new Paragon Store? Tough. Take your tears elsewhere noone really wants to hear it. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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and as I said before, let's lock ALL unnecessary things behind doing some niche aspect of the game. Are you going to tell me you'd be perfectly happy having to do a great deal of content you loathe in order to unlock IOs, color customization, or anything but the most basic costume pieces that are COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the content? |
Originally Posted by _SPYDER_
Can AmazingMoo (and others) PLEASE stop making post crying about the i-costumes being linked to the i-trails? I swear ive seen atleast 4 different post about the same things all created by him/her/it. (I'm prolly wrong but really dont care)
The game has been out for 7 years. Alot of ppl like to play lowbies true, but also alot of ppl dont, Hence Powerleveling and and now END GAME content. Sure you have to grind ( and i use the term loosley compared to ALOT of other MMOs this one is a laugh) a bit for the Merits to gain access to the costumes that once unlocked are ACCOUNT WIDE. Do you realize how big that is? Imagine having to unlock the costume parts for each toon, as you would have to do for gear in another game. The Devs know this is a game of Alts. The Devs know there has been an outcry for more end content in the game for years now. You respond like a 3 year old in a Toys 'r Us screaming that she wants her Barbie NOW. Earn your reward and be happy. You dont want to earn it and have everything handed to you be it free addition in the costume creator or new Paragon Store? Tough. Take your tears elsewhere noone really wants to hear it. |
Its one thing to put a costume set that says "I did incarnate content" behind the trials. Its another thing entirely to put the ability to get capes at level 1, or path auras, or emotes that have nothing to do with being an incarnate behind them.
You don't like that I and others think this is wrong? Tough. Take your hyperbole elsewhere no one really wants to hear it.
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You've gotten FREE issues/powersets/costumes/emotes for 7 years. As soon as Devs ask for you to spend a bit of fake currency for new ones they feel are worth the cost you b*tch and moan about it. It's very childish, even for this game.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
and as I said before, let's lock ALL unnecessary things behind doing some niche aspect of the game. Are you going to tell me you'd be perfectly happy having to do a great deal of content you loathe in order to unlock IOs, color customization, or anything but the most basic costume pieces that are COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the content?
Its one thing to put a costume set that says "I did incarnate content" behind the trials. Its another thing entirely to put the ability to get capes at level 1, or path auras, or emotes that have nothing to do with being an incarnate behind them. You don't like that I and others think this is wrong? Tough. Take your hyperbole elsewhere no one really wants to hear it. |
You mention hyperbole in my previous post where in fact there is none.
Try harder.
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@spyder-
Spyder's Flame: Fire/Therm Corr- Main
Countless Alts
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Originally Posted by Doughboy
This is the vanguard merit argument all over again. People complained on the forums for weeks (some for months) after the Rikti War Zone revamp. Nothing changed.
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Except this will change. Nice try, though.
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The Trials will always be at the heart of the Incarnate system - the entire endgame system is designed around them |
Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
Except this will change. Nice try, though.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If this were true, it would easily be one of the bigger DOOOOOOOOM posts on the forums to date.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Sort of like the dev attitude to the emands of Incarnate soloers?
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Thankfully it's just a GG post though.
Edit: Actually, the "I'm glad people that don't agree with me are leaving" post is pretty doom-ish too, though it probably doesn't seem that way to her.
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First of all, I'm going to publicly applaud Arcanaville, one of a handful of forum vets that I respect and whose posts I pay serious attention to, for posting in this thread.
I agree with all of his points; I don't want to see anyone miss out on content that they like doing. If you want to raid, go for it. If you want to PvP, go for that. I'm not going to begrudge anyone a playstyle because this is a game that's built a reputation for supporting multiple playstyles a lot better than a lot of other games. Raiding isn't my thing, but I'm not going to say to anyone they shouldn't do it.
Beyond that, I agree with Arcanaville. The merit system and rewards for the Incarnate system are over the line. They're not proportional to the task (something I've said in every one of my posts) and I think it'll provide a very bad contradictory point when we get an online store where almost exactly the same kind of content will be available either for free or for purchase.
SPYDER, you can't have it both ways. You know it and I know it. You say 'tough' when saying we should go out and earn these rewards...so by your own logic, is it cheating to have exactly the same rewards be available by virtue of being a veteran or spending money without doing a specific task to get them?
I am directing this squarely at you so you can't mistake it or try and turn it around by saying I'm a crybaby when I say I am fine with earning my rewards. I am fine with doing content if there's a reward at it. Take a screenshot, it'll last longer.
What I am saying, and what everyone else who supports Arcanaville or AmazingMOO is that the rewards are not justifiable and proportional to the effort made to get them. Most of these rewards are either given to you for free elsewhere, earned by playing time, or available to buy online.
Tell me what it is that makes these rewards different from the others to justify the effort, and I'll concede a point to you happily. Currently you're just bashing people because presumably you like the system and you feel it's some sort of entitlement issue. Presumably then if the grind was like the fantasy MMO's you talked about, you wouldn't be saying it's so fair? And that is the issue, fairness and proportion. I put it to you to answer that. I'll do any content if the reward's worth the effort...do you think emotes, auras and costume changes are? Given how else you get them?
S.
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I think a lot of this furor will die down once the next issue pops up. Yes there will be trials but there will also be a brand new zone not incarnate related with stuff to do. It seems players not interested in trials feel they haven't gotten much lately and this is true. If the Dev's strike team thing works out, and they've mentioned in Ustream it is going very well, trials and non trial content will be consistently added to the game. Hopefully we'll be getting a great deal that appeals to many different styles of play.
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By this logic, all the people saying "We want more trials, you solo players can suck it" are likewise being dismissive and combative, correct?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But once you start saying content is undeserving of developer time, even when that time is the minority, you're saying everyone who likes that content is undeserving. Those are fighting words whether you directly intend them to be or not.
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And yet your personal post count has increased by like 300 thanks to these threads. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Multiple threads by the same people is just an attempt to make their "cause" seem popular and well-supported - these types tried it when the Incarnate system first started, and failed badly.
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or just simply being a ******.
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Originally Posted by JKCarrier
By this logic, all the people saying "We want more trials, you solo players can suck it" are likewise being dismissive and combative, correct?
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
or just simply being a ******.
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That's when all they are doing is just saying that, and not creating entire new threads just to mock people or give them a stern "listen up" talking to.
but but...a MMO means we're supposed to team!
All day! In the game! On a team! One bed! No pillowcase! One pillow!
Everybody invites me!
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
but but...a MMO means we're supposed to team!
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No it means we are supposed to rip each other on the message boards like our opponents are subhumans without feelings.
Of course I think we are all adult enough to know this debate is a game of musical chairs. In a few weeks we'll all switch sides and forget who slashed whose throat again.
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It's a shame more forumites can't grasp this simple concept..
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
but but...a MMO means we're supposed to team!
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Mostly because it's not true, but hey. Whatever floats your boat!
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
It's a shame more forumites can't grasp this simple concept..
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I find the trials the least social content in the game. I'm far too busy to chat in a trial. Player sponsored events and normal content are far more social. Sometimes people talk when waiting for them to start but we're all busy when it starts.
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That's because it's wrong.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
It's a shame more forumites can't grasp this simple concept..
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Massively Multiplayer says nothing about teaming.
Yes, there's interaction between players in a shared environment, but teaming is merely one of SEVERAL options for action within the game.
Yes, for certain things, like TFs, trials, and the like, teaming is more or less necessary (at least to start them).
But for the vast majority of the game content, teaming is OPTIONAL.
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No, it's not. Doesn't matter how many times certain people repeat it, or how much it gets rationalized, the point of an MMO is for people to play together. That is what the vast majority of players want, and that is why people subscribe in the first place. Otherwise they'd just be playing any of the huge number of single player games that are out there. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
That's because it's wrong.
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Yes, there MAY be other options, but an MMO is designed around people teaming. It is to be expected that this basic core concept will drive development direction. Anyone who expects differently is in for a lot of disappointment, in the long run.
And just for the record, I say that as a player who enjoys playing solo quite a bit. I just don't have unrealistic expectations about what the developers plan to do with the game.
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qft
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No, it's not. Doesn't matter how many times certain people repeat it, or how much it gets rationalized, the point of an MMO is for people to play together. That is what the vast majority of players want, and that is why people subscribe in the first place. Otherwise they'd just be playing any of the huge number of single player games that are out there.
Yes, there MAY be other options, but an MMO is designed around people teaming. It is to be expected that this basic core concept will drive development direction. Anyone who expects differently is in for a lot of disappointment, in the long run. And just for the record, I say that as a player who enjoys playing solo quite a bit. I just don't have unrealistic expectations about what the developers plan to do with the game. |
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@spyder-
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I thought it was agreed that the reason people subscribe to this game was because it was/is the best super hero game about?|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No, it's not. Doesn't matter how many times certain people repeat it, or how much it gets rationalized, the point of an MMO is for people to play together. That is what the vast majority of players want, and that is why people subscribe in the first place. Otherwise they'd just be playing any of the huge number of single player games that are out there.
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Anyhoo, heard this argument alot over the years. And so far the Devs have always produced the desired solo content. Just not very quickly
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Take a trip with me if you will. To any other MMO with rewards given for certain tasks.
There is a boss here that drops a Shiny New Dagger. The dagger is good but not worth the time or effort it takes to kill the boss. The devs should make the dagger craftable so i dont have to kill that hard boss.
The dagger is made craftable to make players happy.
The items to make the dagger are far to expensive the stats on the dagger are not good enough for the items it needs they should change the recipie so its easier to craft so i can have this new dagger.
Craft recipie is changed to make players happy.
The devs should change the skin of this dagger it looks ugly now that i have it, it should look better.
New skin made for the dagger to make players happy.
I should be able to Dual wield this dagger so i can have double the stats...
give a mouse a cookie....
Play the game? Why should i since i got everything i want just by logging in?
The Devs choose the worth of a certian item for a reason. This reason is to give you an incentive to run content. You feel that the content is not worth your time or Merits for the items you want? Then dont spend the merits on that item and spend it on what you do want. The devs make these incentives to keep you coming back to thier PRODUCT. Nothing should be handed to you just cuz you feel it should. Like it or not it is a business.
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