Discussion: The Intrepid Informer: Galaxy's Last Stand
By
A Man In Black,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 10:15 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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In that case, BAB should be shown as a racial carcature, as that's also traditional in comics.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Repeat after me: It is an image based on a superhero comic book theme, which includes skimpy outfits for females. Sister Psyche's outfit is fully genre for female superheroes.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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BABs is, and will always be, a racial caricature. I'm sure that if the game had a R rating that his dialogue would be littered with f-bombs, black slang, and ethnic slurs from blaxploitation films in the 70s.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In that case, BAB should be shown as a racial carcature, as that's also traditional in comics.
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The woman has a similar pose. Though she is looking ahead, not behind her. The object of her terror is less than the destruction of the city. She doesn't have a super hero comic book figure, but if she did she would look similar to Sister Psyche.
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
Humans are visual creatures. Even when we dont consciously know when something is wrong, often the unconscious pings on something and we get a feeling of something being off. That is what happened with this picture.
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
Fun is relative. A bully picking on a weaker person is having "fun".
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And somehow this thread has turned to placating my squirrel and female in casual business attire fetish... Grrrrrrrowwwwlllll...|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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<.<
>.>
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Repeat after me: The problem is not Sister Psyche's costume. It is her horrible pose. The pose which is practically impossible to actually put yourself in, that emphasizes her boobs and her butt.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Repeat after me: It is an image based on a superhero comic book theme, which includes skimpy outfits for females. Sister Psyche's outfit is fully genre for female superheroes.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The woman has a similar pose. Though she is looking ahead, not behind her. The object of her terror is less than the destruction of the city. She doesn't have a super hero comic book figure, but if she did she would look similar to Sister Psyche. |
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Political correctness is about equality and respect - it's only the primitive knuckle-draggers who are against it, as it forces them to step up to the level or normal human beings.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
To be fair, "Political Correctness" is a concept created by exactly that kind of person anyways sooo.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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This woman's back is straight, her body is leaning away from the squirrel, and her lips are sucked into the mouth, in fact the top lip is pretty much non existent. SP's back is arched, her butt is up in the air, her breast are thrust at the viewer, and her lips are thrust out and very full. These are come hither signals for the human animal. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Basically I'm saying that people seeing something sexual about this pose are bringing their own prejudices to the table, it isn't in the artwork. For instance, take a look at this picture:
The woman has a similar pose. Though she is looking ahead, not behind her. The object of her terror is less than the destruction of the city. She doesn't have a super hero comic book figure, but if she did she would look similar to Sister Psyche. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Partly, though I think your own prejudices are playing a greater role in your criticism of the piece.
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Well, it isn't as bad as a Liefeld drawing. |
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Repeat after me: The problem is not Sister Psyche's costume. It is her horrible pose. The pose which is practically impossible to actually put yourself in, that emphasizes her boobs and her butt.
That pose is nowhere near. For one, her back is flat, and her torso is aligned with her hips. Sister Psyche's back is bent at a severe (for a spine) angle, and her torso is behind her hips. The unnatural bend of the back is the number one problem with her pose. |
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Vitriol? There hasn't been any vitriol from the people critiquing the art, unless you have some absurd definition of the term as "any negativity at all". The only real vitriol has been from people shouting down people who are bringing up problematic elements of the art. Especially yourself.
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
This woman's back is straight, her body is leaning away from the squirrel, and her lips are sucked into the mouth, in fact the top lip is pretty much non existent. SP's back is arched, her butt is up in the air, her breast are thrust at the viewer, and her lips are thrust out and very full. These are come hither signals for the human animal.
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
I want to clarify something, I'm not offended by the comic. I just feel that it is not telling the story that it is supposed to be telling. It's sending mixed signals. The eyes of SP are telling one story and her body is telling another. If the Devs dont care that I found the comic to be "wrong", and once I studied it, what was wrong with it for me, I can live with that.
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Originally Posted by Bitt_Player
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I'd disagree that racism is only something of the highest atrocity humanity can bring to bear. Ever hear the phrase "a little bit -ist"? that's what's going on here. There's a whole spectrum of racism, genderism,Heterosexism and other types of discrimination that are bred into our culture. These are social concepts and thus nuanced.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No, but people are calling that picture "racist" and "sexist" which is more comparable to war crimes than someone that has a problem with the pose.
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| Calling that picture either racist or sexist diminishes the terms. Racism is something to be avoided, but that picture isn't racist. Being sexist is also something to be avoided, but that picture isn't sexist. Most war crimes are motivated by racism or sexism, and the picture doesn't come close to any of the three terms when properly used. THAT is the vitriol that I'm seeing in this thread. |
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| And in the picture, Sister Psyche is turning around, and seeing something that is shocking her. She is probably getting a mind-full of panic from everyone in the area. |
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| See, I can understand what YOU are saying here. On the other hand, those that are comparing this with racism, sexism, and prejudice against those with disabilities are the people that I'm disgusted with. I'm hoping that clears things up. |
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| Ok, this picture is hiding her head. I see a good amount of fear in her body. I don't see her "thrusting her breasts" at the viewer. That she is twisting her torso explains everything going on below the neckline. It is an action pose. |
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There was respect before it and there will be respect after it. Now there is not respect just infringement on free expression.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Political correctness is about equality and respect - it's only the primitive knuckle-draggers who are against it, as it forces them to step up to the level or normal human beings.
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Sexism and racism are not acceptable forms of free expression.
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Originally Posted by Thany144
There was respect before it and there will be respect after it. Now there is not respect just infringement on free expression.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Now that is a slippery slope.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Sexism and racism are not acceptable forms of free expression.
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"The only allowed topics of free expression are those topics I agree with."
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Put her and a doppelganger on either side of Ben Vereen and you got a Bob Fosse number.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Ok, this picture is hiding her head. I see a good amount of fear in her body. I don't see her "thrusting her breasts" at the viewer. That she is twisting her torso explains everything going on below the neckline. It is an action pose.
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Haven't read entire topic; couldn't stomach about 1/3rd of the comments I did read.
I find Sister Psyche's pose to be not atypical of comic book poses, and not atypical in specific of psychics in comics responding to gross physical threat. Physically realistic? No, but that doesn't seem a reasonable objective in this genre.
Professor X responds to threats by holding his head - possibly slightly differently based on how much chutzpah he's about to have to use. Jean Grey - admittedly, hardly a model of modern feminism - does similar. And Sue Storms suffers a similar problem when "just" putting out bubbles. Psychics - and putting psychics in visually interesting poses - is a recurring problem for comic-book artists.
Sister Psyche is witnessing a horrific incident over which she has little to no control, and her abilities are not well-suited to countering. Additionally, if she's "empathic", she may well feel the overwhelming fear and panic of those around her, causing her to experience uncharacteristic fear.
In other words - "Art on this panel is meh; Sister Psyche looks kinda twisted out of shape", and move on. There are whole forums on the internet devoted to bad comic-book art. I'll concede this panel / page belongs there.
But I also think it's a loooong reach from, "Man, what a horribly executed piece of art", to, "This is clearly an example of systemic sexism". While <comic books> might deserve that level of scrutiny, I do feel that, in the balance, this game's Dev Team passes the muster.
All that said, "re-casting" the Back Alley Brawler is ... significantly more questionable, to me. If I were on the team responsible for this artwork, that'd have never gotten past the sketch phase.
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Not once in my life, and more to the point I totally disagree with that phrase.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Ever hear the phrase "a little bit -ist"?
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
You are seeing terms like racist or sexist( or maybe just discussions about the topic, I can't be sure, is the phrasse "This image is sexist" specifically found in this discussion?) being used. Interpreting it to mean people are accusing David Nakayama of horrible evil, then interpreting that as vitriol.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
waha? where did abelism even come into this conversation?
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
And before that comes up again, no, I'm not accusing David Nakayama of wanting to subjugate women and people of colour. Very few people actively, purposefully stick with the big -isms. It's some of these ideas are just so deeply ingrained into us that we don't percieve them as these big -isms. They became totally normal for us and we don't see where the problem is. They're ideas we literally grew up with, that were with us since we were born. Me? A couple of months ago I thought the R-word was awesome for just casually dismissing people and things I didn't like until one day I stumbled upon an intellectually-disabled-rights activist. I started researching their plight, I reflected on all the ways I've Othered and discriminated them without even knowing.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
A: It doesn't look like an "Action" pose to me, since "Action pose" is a phrase that implies doign something instead of... I guess falling down? and if she was looking one way, and then turning to see something else, why would she contort her head and body like that instead of just looking back like a normal person or facing the direction of what's going on and looking actiony
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| Ever hear the phrase "a little bit -ist"? |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Not once in my life, and more to the point I totally disagree with that phrase.
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As a US serviceman I got to deal with a lot of little-ist over seas.
As a Maintenance Tech for a top 500 High Tech manufacturing company, the company was ramping up it's automatic manufacturing so fast that they were rapidly running out of qualified techs (At the sight I was at.), while at the same time they were reducing the need for operators. One of the recommendations from the maintenance group was to open up an in-house apprentice program. The company finally did, and right there in the documentation the company stated that it had been noticed that over 95% of the on sight maintenance group was white males, so the first batch of apprentice positions was only going to be opened to females and people of non-white persuasion. The Operator group was probably 75-80% female, with maybe 1% non-white. This first group was filled (All female.), and within 2 years 90% of them were gone. Why, because the Ops did not see us when we were crammed into a grimy piece of equipment holding a heavy piece of equipment in place (Getting all grimy and sweaty.), while another grimy and sweaty tech who was crammed in there with you was trying to fasten it down. There was a reason why the maintenance group was predominantly male. The reason for it being predominantly white was the location of the sight.
I believe that little-ist are more prevalent now. Big-ist get stomped on real fast. Little-ist often get made into policies.
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And who gets to decide that?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Sexism and racism are not acceptable forms of free expression.
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| Sexism and racism are not acceptable forms of free expression. |
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Originally Posted by Thany144
And who gets to decide that?
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In this game NCsoft/Paragon has stated that sexism/racism are not acceptable forms of expression, and they are well within their rights to do so. It's up to the lucky moderators to decide what is sexism/racism, and to enforce this rule.
Wow... this discussion has taken and extreme bend... This was never about sexism nor racism. Some of us made some moderate comments of interpretation. I do not find this game nor the artwork in question neither racist nor sexist in any sense. There are my two cents... I now return you to your sociopolitical rant already in progress.
"Think! It's not illegal yet."
Agreed, though I am one of the posters, I voiced my opinion, gave factual examples (along with Noxilicious) and left it. Others have taken the fact that we dared to voice an opinion as vitriol, etc which in and of itself is silly and extreme.
Bottom line, its great to play this MMO in particular because of its inclusive nature; sort of nice to see a comic where you can see yourself represented. Harder if you are the majority and never had to view it through a different perspective but there are some, as evidenced here in this forum, who are more open-minded and aware of the different experiences people have.
So yes, lets get back to the game and we can leave the political expressions back within real life, and allow the MMO to just continue to express its inclusive, exciting nature.
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Originally Posted by BluGypsc
Wow... this discussion has taken and extreme bend... This was never about sexism nor racism. Some of us made some moderate comments of interpretation. I do not find this game nor the artwork in question neither racist nor sexist in any sense. There are my two cents... I now return you to your sociopolitical rant already in progress.
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No, I'm seeing posts like I quoted from Noxilicious as being vitriol.
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None of Nox's posts have been caustically critical (which is what "vitriol" means). Caustic criticism is criticism that is meant to be hurtful to the target, whereas her posts have been expressly about certain unfortunate implications of the art.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I also see the criticisms as pushing an agenda that would see free speech being curtailed. Some group perceiving themselves as victims will always come out of the woodwork and claim whatever they need to do to silence others.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Because that is what art, and especially comic book superhero art, does. It exaggerates poses to give a sense of movement and action. You never show the moment at the beginning (start of the swing, or the sky about to fall) or end of a pose (unless it is an explosion, but rarely someone curled up in a ball), but something just after the impact.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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So does this mean Galaxy City will be trashed as a zone proper in-game? Or are we going to get a blown up Galaxy City in tutorial and a status quo Galaxy once we enter the game? I only ask because I like Galaxy City. But having said that it would certainly break the immersion were supposed to feel in-game I think if not even a single brick is out of place.
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Galaxy City will no longer be available as a starting zone - once you do the new tutorial in the ruins of Galaxy City, you can choose to go to Atlas Park or Mercy Island.|
Originally Posted by MESSIAH288
So does this mean Galaxy City will be trashed as a zone proper in-game? Or are we going to get a blown up Galaxy City in tutorial and a status quo Galaxy once we enter the game? I only ask because I like Galaxy City. But having said that it would certainly break the immersion were supposed to feel in-game I think if not even a single brick is out of place.
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The old Galaxy zone map will be available as an "echo" at Ouroboros for people to collect the olds badges there.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Emperor Cole would be proud of you concept of liberty! Happy 4th! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Sexism and racism are not acceptable forms of free expression.
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Liberty doesn't = the freedom to be sexist or racist - liberty is being able to live free of those prejudices.
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Originally Posted by Moly
Emperor Cole would be proud of you concept of liberty! Happy 4th!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I'm really looking forward to COH:Freedom but, that said, I think you guys dropped the ball on this one.
Disappointed,
-Buxley
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork