Mandatory Pool Powers
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-06-11 09:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I fail to see this as unfair, no matter how hard I stretch it, honestly. Just seems to me that's how the game is built, the rules of the game.
I don't actually know if they changed level reqs for the primary/secondary powersets, but I doubt it.
I figured that finding ourselves with more power slots than pickable powers was just because Inherent was no longer "mandatory" in the sense that no character build would be complete without it, so now we've got two-three power slots freed up for other choices.
It has always been that way. You get a total of 24 power choices in your build and only have 22 non-pool powers (9 primary, 9 secondary and 4 epic). Therefore you have always had to take at least 2 pool powers to finish your build.
Fitness becoming inherent didn't change that at all, you have always had to take at least two pool powers (one at or before level 24 and the other at or before 30).
EDIT: EATs are an exception to this having larger primary/secondary powers sets than regular ATs.
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Note that this design allows you to have all your primary, all your secondary, and all your epic powers, plus the two pool picks to get a travel power. This is not an accident.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It has always been that way. You get a total of 24 power choices in your build and only have 22 non-pool powers (9 primary, 9 secondary and 4 epic). Therefore you have always had to take at least 2 pool powers to finish your build.
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So you never paid any attention to builds before Fitness became inherent? Because as others have already said this is how it has always worked. Sorry to hear you are only just noticing it after seven years.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Ok I have seen this a couple of times since the Fitness became inherent. It seems you can't opt out of pool powers all together. Right around level 24, you are force to take a pool power since none of your standard powers are available. Is this a flaw, or "working-as-intended". It this is how it should be, it seems a little unfair.
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This shouldn't be such a complex question. Throughout a character's career, that character gets 24 power picks: 2 at creation, 15 more levels 2 to 30, then 32, 35, 38, 41, 44, 47 and 49 for another 7. You have 9 primary powers and 9 secondary powers for a total of 18. That's 6 power picks that you have insufficient primary and secondary powers for, which means you have to engage in epic or pool powers. And, no, epics don't count as primary or secondary. The thematic matches aren't that strong or that frequent.
Is it fair for the system to work like this? Yes. Yes it is. Unless you want to operate under the assertion that you should never have to take a pool power, and I fail to see how that could be justified. The way the game is set up, there are somewhat few ways to build a particular powerset and fewer still to build a particular powerset combo. Pool powers, therefore, provide one of the primary methods for differentiation between characters of the same AT and powersets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That isn't quite true anymore since all of the Epic pools got upgraded to 5 powers. But I agree that was almost certainly the original design intent.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Note that this design allows you to have all your primary, all your secondary, and all your epic powers, plus the two pool picks to get a travel power. This is not an accident.
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Never realized wanting just Primary, Secondary, and Epics was "doing it wrong", but I guess I am going against popular opinion here.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Who are you quoting "doing it wrong"? Cos no one said that. Everyone is saying that your expectations do not match the game's design.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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What people are saying is that it has never been possible to do that, so it seems like a rather odd complaint to raise seven years into the life of the game.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Never realized wanting just Primary, Secondary, and Epics was "doing it wrong", but I guess I am going against popular opinion here.
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sooooooooo... just take them, find some throwaways at the points where there are no Primary/Secondary powers available, don't put them on your tray and enjoy having more slots?|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Never realized wanting just Primary, Secondary, and Epics was "doing it wrong", but I guess I am going against popular opinion here.
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Don't get the angst here. Would you prefer to not have room for a travel power if you wanted all of your primary and secondary?
You have yet to explain how exactly this is "unfair," too. Unfair to who or what?
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its not "doing it wrong" its just not unfair, its just a very odd complaint. i mean yeah, its assumed you will want a travel power, pre boosters, readily available buyable ingame powers and stuff from mayhem/safeguards travel powers were a big step in a players life, you start getting the ability to get to missions faster and access difficult to reach places in mission. i mean, you can take a power and bin it, or use it as a io mule if you like, but the design is more beneficial to more players than it is harmful, if you could call it a harm.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Never realized wanting just Primary, Secondary, and Epics was "doing it wrong", but I guess I am going against popular opinion here.
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My Peacebringer only has Primary and Secondary powers :armscrossed:
I know it seems an odd request and I usually do want some sort of Pool Power, it's just until I really didn't that I noticed that I didn't have a choice. I do see the benefit of being able to select a pool power, just not the benefit of "having" to take one.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Well, they could reduce the number of powers we get, if that would make you feel better.
Don't expect new primary and secondary powers.
Just because you "have" a power doesn't mean you have to use it, acknowledge that it's even there, or slot it.
The only way to fix your concern would be to offer more slots instead of a power, and that's not going to happen. They've given us more powers at our disposal by moving Fitness to inherent status, and they didn't even give us more slots then.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
If anything, it's completely fair, because it happens to everybody with a non-Epic Archetype.
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You're not "doing it wrong," you're simply stating a preference that goes against a design decision dating back seven years with only a vaguely-defined "fairness" as an argument. You're not going to get anyone to say you're wrong, simply a great many people who shrug and say "that's how it's always been."|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Never realized wanting just Primary, Secondary, and Epics was "doing it wrong", but I guess I am going against popular opinion here.
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City of Heroes seems to have been designed around a system where you can take all of "your" powers and then some, rather than the more conventional RPG system where you have far, far more powers than you can ever pick and have them be meaningful. That's just how the game is designed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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well, i guess that wanders into some strange semantics when one looks at an abundance of choice as an anti-choice, but you know, harsh as it sounds, some time, removing the choice of someone, particularly someone who may be unfamiliar with a facet of the game, to screw up and miss a defining characteristic of the game i.e.inability to take a travel power because you want all your prim/sec/epic powers, is beneficial because it protects them from ruining their game.call it hand holding or whatever, it happens and it is justified by reality. so they make sure you have the number of slots, even if it may cramp a meta-concept by making you take a power of some sort, even if you just bin it and maybe slot a io.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I know it seems an odd request and I usually do want some sort of Pool Power, it's just until I really didn't that I noticed that I didn't have a choice. I do see the benefit of being able to select a pool power, just not the benefit of "having" to take one.
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the biggest problem i see is that if you give all players the same number of available powers, there is simply no way to give people who want some looseness in their build to take most of their prim/sec/epic and still have some variety and also support the ones who want that meta-purity, the math doesn't work out. so you have to look at who is inconvenienced less, people who are cramped build-wise, or people who take a dog power or so, but still can keep an effectively concept pure character. and looking at those options, the person binning 2 powers simply is less inconvenienced than someone who is straitjacketed by overly tight builds. This is not saying there is NO inconvenience to you, but i dont think you could conceive of a solution that did not inconvenience the second group far worse.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
well, i guess that wanders into some strange semantics when one looks at an abundance of choice as an anti-choice, but you know, harsh as it sounds, some time, removing the choice of someone, particularly someone who may be unfamiliar with a facet of the game, to screw up and miss a defining characteristic of the game i.e.inability to take a travel power because you want all your prim/sec/epic powers, is beneficial because it protects them from ruining their game.call it hand holding or whatever, it happens and it is justified by reality. so they make sure you have the number of slots, even if it may cramp a meta-concept by making you take a power of some sort, even if you just bin it and maybe slot a io.
the biggest problem i see is that if you give all players the same number of available powers, there is simply no way to give people who want some looseness in their build to take most of their prim/sec/epic and still have some variety and also support the ones who want that meta-purity, the math doesn't work out. so you have to look at who is inconvenienced less, people who are cramped build-wise, or people who take a dog power or so, but still can keep an effectively concept pure character. and looking at those options, the person binning 2 powers simply is less inconvenienced than someone who is straitjacketed by overly tight builds. This is not saying there is NO inconvenience to you, but i dont think you could conceive of a solution that did not inconvenience the second group far worse. |
I figured that this was the case and as minor an inconvenience it is, I suppose it is a necessary evil.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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This is the part we're having trouble grasping.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I figured that this was the case and as minor an inconvenience it is, I suppose it is a necessary evil.
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In what way, shape or form is this an "evil"?
It's like if you wanted to be able to level up without earning any inf. The game simply doesn't work that way, it never has, and none of us understand how this can be considered as a negative.
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The Mentor Project
The Idea of having a choice removed of any kind is considered a negative in the sense that it limits freedom, not that I completely agree with this mindset, just explaining.
I don't find it that troublesome but once or twice I've found myself with no desire to take any powers other than my primary or secondary and being forces to take stealth or some-such to as a filler power and finding it kind of annoying.
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If you don't want pool power, select a pool, and never use the power. You're getting exactly what you want, use of just your primary and your secondary.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I know it seems an odd request and I usually do want some sort of Pool Power, it's just until I really didn't that I noticed that I didn't have a choice. I do see the benefit of being able to select a pool power, just not the benefit of "having" to take one.
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This works for me when selecting Boxing/Kick and never using it.
What might be unfair, was if you couldn't select all your primary and secondary. But you can! So it's all good.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Ok I have seen this a couple of times since the Fitness became inherent. It seems you can't opt out of pool powers all together. Right around level 24, you are force to take a pool power since none of your standard powers are available. Is this a flaw, or "working-as-intended". It this is how it should be, it seems a little unfair.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."