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Rory became human again when they rebooted the universe; they remembered it all because they still existed at the "end" of the old universe, everyone else had ceased to exist at the point.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I don't hate Rory, but I hate the inconsistencies they left the character with and I want them resolved.
If he waited for 2000 years, then he's made of plastic and isn't really Rory and he couldn't have sired a child. If he didn't wait all that time, then he's not 'The Last Centurion' and has no in-character reason to be a badass. If he *was* plastic and then turned human again when the Doctor rebooted the universe, I want to know how he still has any memories from before. If the answer to *that* is that Amy has the power to warp reality to partially conform to her memories, then I need that superpower addressed (and removed!) in the show. Frankly, the end of last season left a tangle of continuity problems, and Rory is just the most visible one. I normally don't worry about continuity with Doctor Who, but it becomes an issue when the entire damn season is one drawn-out continuous story. |
The Amy bit was a little wishy washy but was related to the cracks in time in her bedroom and the ability to influence things specifically within the context of the reboot of the universe, rather than in general.
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He didn't say "just a nurse"...he simply said "Rory, I'm a nurse." I took it to mean, "I'm a nurse, I know how bad my injuries are, so don't B.S. me that I'm going to be fine."
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
To be honest I found that scene to be extremely insulting, and I would have stood up and cheered if Rory had told the Sontarran he was also "just" a nurse.
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I didn't say the Sontarran said "just a nurse" to Rory. I said I would have cheered if Rory said that back to him.|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
He didn't say "just a nurse"...he simply said "Rory, I'm a nurse." I took it to mean, "I'm a nurse, I know how bad my injuries are, so don't B.S. me that I'm going to be fine."
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Edit: Just for clarification. For Sontarrans being demoted to a nurse and helping the weak and sick is the greatest punishment they can endure.
I haven't read all the posts up until now but....
Watched the episode Sun. night (I think) and it was a good one 
Of course as others have said before this thread that they thought River was Amy's daughter so they are proved right
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Sure, but I think the whole point of Strax's mini-character arc is that he's growing beyond that view. He grumbles about his job, but he seems to enjoy it on some level, or at least takes pride in doing it well -- note how eager he was to show off his mad lactating skillz. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
For Sontarrans being demoted to a nurse and helping the weak and sick is the greatest punishment they can endure.
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And when he dies in battle, he admits its not as glorious as its "supposed" to be. He's not a mindless cog in the Sontaran war machine any more. He and Rory are kindred spirits: The warrior who had to become a nurse, and the nurse who's had to become a warrior. Neither of them chose their fates, but they're making the best of it. It's one of the best moments in an episode full of great moments.
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Originally Posted by JKCarrier
Sure, but I think the whole point of Strax's mini-character arc is that he's growing beyond that view. He grumbles about his job, but he seems to enjoy it on some level, or at least takes pride in doing it well -- note how eager he was to show off his mad lactating skillz.
And when he dies in battle, he admits its not as glorious as its "supposed" to be. He's not a mindless cog in the Sontaran war machine any more. He and Rory are kindred spirits: The warrior who had to become a nurse, and the nurse who's had to become a warrior. Neither of them chose their fates, but they're making the best of it. It's one of the best moments in an episode full of great moments. |
Of course Strax takes pride in doing his job well. He's a Sontaran. To do any less than strive to be the best nurse he can be would only further the dishonor to his clone batch.
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| And when he dies in battle, he admits its not as glorious as its "supposed" to be. |
Strax - It's strange . . . I often dreamed of dying in combat . . . I'm not enjoying it as much as I hoped.
Rory - C'mon Strax . . . Don't give up.
Strax - It's alright, I've had a good life . . . I'm nearly 12.
Rory - Listen to me. You'll be back on your feet in no time. You're a Warrior.
Strax - Rory, I'm a nurse.
He said he's not enjoying dying in combat like he thought he would. He never said anything about his death not being glorious.
And what Strax said is true about a lot of soldiers. Many if not all have thought about how they might die but they have a tendency to overlook the harsh reality of what it will actually feel like to be mortally wounded.
Tangentially related. Safe for work but disturbing:
Apparantly Sontarans aren't the only creatures that can be gene-spliced to produce magnificent quantities.
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With regards to Amy, I still quite buy River being conceived in the TARDIS is the reason why she is part Timelord, I'm convinced,|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I don't hate Rory, but I hate the inconsistencies they left the character with and I want them resolved.
If he waited for 2000 years, then he's made of plastic and isn't really Rory and he couldn't have sired a child. If he didn't wait all that time, then he's not 'The Last Centurion' and has no in-character reason to be a badass. If he *was* plastic and then turned human again when the Doctor rebooted the universe, I want to know how he still has any memories from before. If the answer to *that* is that Amy has the power to warp reality to partially conform to her memories, then I need that superpower addressed (and removed!) in the show. Frankly, the end of last season left a tangle of continuity problems, and Rory is just the most visible one. I normally don't worry about continuity with Doctor Who, but it becomes an issue when the entire damn season is one drawn-out continuous story. |
1) Amy is actually a lost child of Gallifrey
or
2) When Rory was remade, she without realizing it, remade Rory into a Gallifreyan just like the Doctor
The reality thing, was a temp thing, not unlike strange stuff that has occured with previous companions, ie Donna Noble( who it wouldn't suprise me if she had half-timelord children), or Rose
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I liked the mini-arc as well, it made Sonarans a bit less three dimensional, I was a bit put out he died, I think he would've made a great companion, after all every Doctor needs his Nurse. There were a lot of references there about warriors and healers,|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
Sure, but I think the whole point of Strax's mini-character arc is that he's growing beyond that view. He grumbles about his job, but he seems to enjoy it on some level, or at least takes pride in doing it well -- note how eager he was to show off his mad lactating skillz.
And when he dies in battle, he admits its not as glorious as its "supposed" to be. He's not a mindless cog in the Sontaran war machine any more. He and Rory are kindred spirits: The warrior who had to become a nurse, and the nurse who's had to become a warrior. Neither of them chose their fates, but they're making the best of it. It's one of the best moments in an episode full of great moments. |
1) Strax
2) Rory
3) the whole bit about Doctor in the language of the people of the Gamma Forest meaning mighty Warrier
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Silurian. Go back and watch The Hungry Earth two-parter from last season.|
Originally Posted by Rodoan
The lethal lizard lady was cool too, though I don't get why her appearance is so radically different than the others of her kind. Is this the only time Jack the Ripper has been referenced in Doctor Who? I would have thought they'd have done something regarding him before.
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Originally Posted by Redbone
The mention of Jack the Ripper has sent a small ripple of discontent through those product makers and license holders since the IDW comic series did a three issue series on Jack with assurances Moff had no intention of using Jack. The fact it was a throwaway line just made it worse.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I don't hate Rory, but I hate the inconsistencies they left the character with and I want them resolved.
If he waited for 2000 years, then he's made of plastic and isn't really Rory and he couldn't have sired a child. If he didn't wait all that time, then he's not 'The Last Centurion' and has no in-character reason to be a badass. If he *was* plastic and then turned human again when the Doctor rebooted the universe, I want to know how he still has any memories from before. If the answer to *that* is that Amy has the power to warp reality to partially conform to her memories, then I need that superpower addressed (and removed!) in the show. |
Rory can *sometimes* remember his 2000 years as the Last Centurion, due to being a time traveler, being at the end of the previous universe, and the whole universe-modified-by-Amy thing. Remember, once Amy called out the Doctor for being late to the wedding, Rory remembered him too. Amy, River, and the Doctor all remember the previous universe, why wouldn't Rory?
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Hence 'the fact that it was just a throwaway line just made it worse'. The statement being made seems to be that he shouldn't have been using Jack at all, but if he was gonna do it he should've done it proper.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
She didn't claim to be Jack.
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EDIT: Also, it seemed to be implied that Jack was eaten. As I recall the exchange was something like 'How did you find Jack' 'A bit stringy.'
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Correct. I never meant to indicate I thought she WAS jack, just that she had a throwaway line (well, several) about Jack and had done away with him, thus closing off that story avenue for other uses, some of which had already been used with the Beeb's approval and assurances Moffat wouldn't be using Jack at all in any capacity.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Hence 'the fact that it was just a throwaway line just made it worse'. The statement being made seems to be that he shouldn't have been using Jack at all, but if he was gonna do it he should've done it proper.
EDIT: Also, it seemed to be implied that Jack was eaten. As I recall the exchange was something like 'How did you find Jack' 'A bit stringy.' |
I wouldn't go so far as to say they SHOULDN'T have used him (I firmly believe that the show takes priority over the other media), just that those who had already used him under an understanding with the Beeb that they could without running into canon problems with the show, the very thing they'd agreed on with the Beeb as the reason the Beeb would have such a large say in the scripts and stories not entirely in the Beeb's control, do have a point that Moff suddenly tossing in something that was unnecessary is a bit of a metaphorical low blow. Beyond that, Jack's interesting and would have made a good episode had they not somewhat closed off that avenue for a "gee, look how cool and badass this character is" line. In a way, he shot himself (or a future producer/writer) in the foot a bit with that one for no reason other than to make a never-before-seen-or-heard-about character look cool quickly.
Is it really such a problem that Moffat established that Jack the Ripper is dead? The only avenue that closes is someone else killing him off.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Of course, she might have got the wrong person too.
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Dead AND human. A prevous story (agian, outside media) established he couldn't be killed.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Is it really such a problem that Moffat established that Jack the Ripper is dead? The only avenue that closes is someone else killing him off.
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First come, first served and finders keepers, imho. |
Originally Posted by Redbone
Beyond that, Jack's interesting and would have made a good episode had they not somewhat closed off that avenue for a "gee, look how cool and badass this character is" line. In a way, he shot himself (or a future producer/writer) in the foot a bit with that one for no reason other than to make a never-before-seen-or-heard-about character look cool quickly.
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Also - I wonder if TVTropes has ever addressed this?* - I think Jack was tossed in to help establish the historical period, not "make her look cool quickly" - sort of like how anyone time traveling always has to meet the most famous people of the day like Mark Twain, Cleopatra, or... Jack The Ripper. It's a common enough crutch.
*and no I'm not asking seriously so don't bother to give me a link if they did.
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As I said, it's my view the show itself takes first concern over other media, but the Beeb made specific statements to those in the other media and then went against it. They do have a right to grouse a bit.|
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
First come, first served and finders keepers, imho.
Also - I wonder if TVTropes has ever addressed this?* - I think Jack was tossed in to help establish the historical period, not "make her look cool quickly" - sort of like how anyone time traveling always has to meet the most famous people of the day like Mark Twain, Cleopatra, or... Jack The Ripper. It's a common enough crutch. *and no I'm not asking seriously so don't bother to give me a link if they did. |
As for establishing the time period, that could have been done in the same way thet told us about "Demons Run" with a bit of text on the bottom of the screen if the clothing and language usage wasn't seen as enough to establish it.
In short, Moff messed up. It's a small error, but an error. In the future some other writer will have to throw him and the Silurian badass under the bus if they want to do a Jack story, reducing his Queen Badass Lizard into a misguided fool contrary to what we're supposed to see on screen. That's bad form and bad writing on Moff's part just for a throwaway.
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Well he had to eventually make his way to Argelius II, you know. That whole incident with Kirk is one of those things that just has to happen.
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Originally Posted by Redbone
Dead AND human. A prevous story (agian, outside media) established he couldn't be killed.
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Goodbye, I guess.
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I didn't see that parallel there until just now, neat. I liked Strax, his part did make me laugh a few times. And I'd definitely watch more of the Steampunk Sillurian and her Sapphic Sidekick anytime. For one off characters, I think they all worked extremely well.
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Originally Posted by JKCarrier
He and Rory are kindred spirits: The warrior who had to become a nurse, and the nurse who's had to become a warrior. Neither of them chose their fates, but they're making the best of it. It's one of the best moments in an episode full of great moments.
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Or she got the right person and someone else picks up where he left off as a copy-cat killer.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
Of course, she might have got the wrong person too.
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This is like the X-men discontinuity discussion. You are trying to make a timeline for a TV series that's been on, including the gap, nearly 50 years that's about time traveling. And whenever they deal with historical events or famous or infamous people from the past there is always a likelihood that the current writer didn't bother with his homework. Toss in all the sort of/could be/maybe cannon of the books and radio dramas, continuity goes straight into the rubbish bin.
Still it's not as bad as the first few Star War novels before it was established that Luke and Leia were siblings. Poor Alan Dean Foster.
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Actually, I'm concentrating on the new series and related media products ONLY. Again, the Beeb, when the new series began, asked for and received tight control over scripts and story ideas from associated media specifically to keep the series and other media from becoming a mass of discontunity. They have final veto on all aspects of the associate material now and stories/scripts have to be okayed by them for that very reason. They approved something because Moff wans't going to use it, then moff used it for a throwaway line. That is not in dispute. The producers of the associated media are now a wee bit miffed because they've "played by the rules" and scrapped scripts and stories that were entering production because they were told "Moff wants to do that." Now they've been blindsided by the Beeb not playing by those rules and they're a bit (not a ton, but a bit) upset by that.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
This is like the X-men discontinuity discussion. You are trying to make a timeline for a TV series that's been on, including the gap, nearly 50 years that's about time traveling. And whenever they deal with historical events or famous or infamous people from the past there is always a likelihood that the current writer didn't bother with his homework. Toss in all the sort of/could be/maybe cannon of the books and radio dramas, continuity goes straight into the rubbish bin.
Still it's not as bad as the first few Star War novels before it was established that Luke and Leia were siblings. Poor Alan Dean Foster. |
There is a secondary issue of "burning a bridge" before anyone can cross it by using an interesting historical figure for a purpose that ocudl have been filled in other ways.
As a side point, the original run tended to be much more loose with canon, letting people decide how to "retcon" things on their own. There are two Loch Ness Monsters after all. The new series wanted to avoid that as much as possible, going so far as to demand it from their license holders as well, something unheard of prior to 2005 in the series, they didn't even keep a tight hold over the novelizations of the actual eps, letting the writers have a free hand altering them as they saw fit.
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Which is what I was mainly addressing with my comment. Who says that interesting historical figures should be treated like a limited resource and only used "when you're really sure THIS is the best time/way to"? (And did they just ruin Stevie Wonder in that way too? |
Originally Posted by Redbone
There is a secondary issue of "burning a bridge" before anyone can cross it by using an interesting historical figure for a purpose that ocudl have been filled in other ways.
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) One might guess that Moffat did think this was the best way, perhaps he's just not very interested in Jack (he is pretty cliche these days). Adding to my first comment about historical period: by letting us know she'd taken out Jack, he's also telling us just what this lizard lady does with herself and her time in London ("crime fighter!, rescuer of humans!"), all in one quick run of dailogue. I call that pretty good writing.
All that aside, this isn't the first time the show's stepped on it's own toes continuity-wise; I seem to recall hearing it's had like three different versions of Atlantis, for instance.
I'm glad, the Doctor versus Jack the Ripper, would be cliché as would Jack the Ripper is actually an alien/demon/timelord/Dalek in a top hat.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I don't hate Rory, but I hate the inconsistencies they left the character with and I want them resolved.
If he waited for 2000 years, then he's made of plastic and isn't really Rory and he couldn't have sired a child.
If he didn't wait all that time, then he's not 'The Last Centurion' and has no in-character reason to be a badass.
If he *was* plastic and then turned human again when the Doctor rebooted the universe, I want to know how he still has any memories from before.
If the answer to *that* is that Amy has the power to warp reality to partially conform to her memories, then I need that superpower addressed (and removed!) in the show.
Frankly, the end of last season left a tangle of continuity problems, and Rory is just the most visible one. I normally don't worry about continuity with Doctor Who, but it becomes an issue when the entire damn season is one drawn-out continuous story.
...
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