All Things Art - FX Edition
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-05-11 15:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'd like to point however that the limited palettes for what you consider "thematically correct" for "dark" powers are actually BRIGHTER than a "bright" option would give you. The limited "dark" palette is dull and flat. Any color you use is a pastel and so soft and wishy washy. A "bright" option using a dark color can actually look rich and powerful. Consider warshades. They use negative energy powers but their powers are of a "bright" palette yet still dark and negative themed. |
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
I believe Void and Dark themed powers use the same palettes, but your friend is one of many to weigh in on powersets that currently only have a limited palette, like Ice and Dark.
For a few powersets, we've decided to use unique palettes that give you more appropriate options for the theme. Personally, I feel that Dark powers, with all their in-game references to terror and the netherworld, as well as their Negative Energy damage type, should remain dark in color. This is important in preserving the theme of the power, and to distinguish it as a Negative Energy attack. That being said, however, there are a number of brighter, more saturated colors available in the "Dark" palette, so you can still create colorful combinations with Dark powersets. I know this is a controversial decision, but ultimately we have to pick out visual elements that are considered "signature" to a powerset's theme and stick with them. I feel Fire and Electricity are more dependent on their shapes and animation than their colors to "sell" their themes, so they have a wider range of colors to choose from. Dark sets feel more appropriately sinister with their darker colors, so we preserved that trait when we added customizable options. |
I'd would honestly ask you to reconsider being so unwilling to simply give us the options WE feel are appropriate instead of forcing us to accept YOUR (as in the devs not just you specifically) vision of what should be appropriate.
I am unable to customize my pain powers properly because they are stuck witha "dark" palette. A bright sharp red seems much more "painful" to me than the dull pastel looking grey/red I am stuck with currently. Again please reconsider this.
A fantastic example of how great a "dark" power can look with a "bright" option is the Soul Tentacles from the Soul Mastery PPP's vs. Tenebrous Tentacles from the dark sets.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Hearing the above from one of the more important artists at Paragon both worries and puzzles me. Real fire does NOT have a "consistent look"; attempts to cram all the myriad wonder of something as diverse as "fire" into a single, flat concept would be both a grave mistake and a substantial cheapening of player's ability to have the characters *they* want. That doesn't even begin to get into the variety possible in a comic book world, where all the sorts of fire that you see in reality and from science are just the tip of the iceberg. |
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
The inconsistency of the fire effects in the game is a personal annoyance for me, too. Unfortunately, it's a side effect of having several different FX artists doing fire effects over many years of development. I'd like to go and unify all the fire styles into one consistent look, but the time required could be a serious hurdle.
... Ideally, all fire effects in our game should look consistent with each other. |
Just to give you a quick, off the top of my head on my lunch break, list of some radically different concepts that would all involve "fire" FX that should look *different*:
* An autumnal spirit, a fire seen in the forest, with crackling and popping flames, hardwood and dry leaves, a trail of bluish smoke in the moonlight; are they a kindly avatar, bringing forth memories of s'mores and hayrides, popping with drips of fat from hotdogs on skewers? Or are they something far more sinister, the power under a dark cauldron, spare bits of bat and the oozing tallow from a hanged man causing angry sparks? Better check their alignment...
* The first thing you notice is the jumpsuit, once light-colored with garish sponsor logos, now smudged and covered with soot. The second thing you notice is the dead, gray face, contorted into a rictus grin. In daylight you then spot the heat shimmer, twisting and curling the air around him, air over hot asphalt turned up to 11; in the dark of night more obvious is the pale, blue flames of hot-burning methanol licking out everywhere. He was once one of the fastest men alive; after the crash and horrific fire, he's got few who would choose to challenge him as the fastest dead man.
* Everyone of a certain age remembers the Kuwait oil fires; cascading, expanding, greasy bubbles of orange in a choking column of black, oily soot. The efforts to shut them down were heroic in every sense of the word; less well known are the few who, fallen to the angry, billowing flames, strode back out formed anew... not all were heroes in the normal way, but they had common cause in the secret, deadly war with the djinni, legendary creatures of "smokeless fire" and malice who saw their best chance to drive pesky humans from the desert sands.
* Sure, everyone has heard of the "Man of Steel", easy to say, familiar material, whatever. But how much respect do I get as the "Man of Magnesium"? I've got a better strength to weight ratio, and when I flame on, you best be using those goggles you've got decoratively perched on your hat; my white, searing glare is going to fry your eyes well before I get over there to hit you with a fist burning at 5,600 degrees. And don't think your pathetic fire equipment is going to help; CO2? Water? I just burn hotter.
* All the good ones are taken, he thought glumly. Here I am, after a freak accident in the welding supplies shack gave me not only the power to shoot an oxyacetylene jet right from my fingers, but to call up a high-voltage electrical field around me with all sorts of uses; I've gone from just another high-steel construction worker in Faultline to one of those costumed guys we see flying past. A lifetime of wishing secretly to be better, one of the "cool guys"... here I am, capable of shooting focused blue-white cones and jets of flame that can cut steel right from my hands with no more effort than walking up a flight of stairs... and the only thing left standing between me and a star-studded superheroic career is the first line on this stupid form.... "Name:"
* Her surface roiled with granules of intense, convective light; she was a seething inferno of fusion, like a piece of the photosphere had been lifted right out of the sun and miniaturized; and maybe that's what actually happened. You get all types in Pocket D, he mused; he didn't know if she was even remotely human, but she certainly had the outline of a mammalian female... "Hey, baby, mind if I buy you a drink? That's a couple of nice prominences you got there." <WHACK> Wincing, he felt the familiar sting as his regeneration factor regrew the nerves in the side of his face; she was a hot one all right, there was an undertone of burnt bone smell in the air, probably from his jaw. He shrugged at the patron down the bar, some sort of natural with a bunch of high-tech pouches, who'd watched the exchange with a horrified expression; "I've had worse rejections."
That's the result of just a few minutes of thought on "different looking kinds of real fire that might come up as important to a super origin", and doesn't even really delve into mystical or super-science effects. As a professional effects artist, hopefully we'll get *more* variety for users to choose from, to better represent their concepts; not a bland homogenizing in a misguided attempt at "consistency".
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I want to dodge the argument about "controversial decisions" and instead focus on something I feel is pretty self-evident: Dark (Armour/Blast/Melee/Miasma) powers should be able to be coloured black. Based on your assertions of what constitutes a dark theme, I am justified in saying this, correct?|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
For a few powersets, we've decided to use unique palettes that give you more appropriate options for the theme. Personally, I feel that Dark powers, with all their in-game references to terror and the netherworld, as well as their Negative Energy damage type, should remain dark in color. This is important in preserving the theme of the power, and to distinguish it as a Negative Energy attack. That being said, however, there are a number of brighter, more saturated colors available in the "Dark" palette, so you can still create colorful combinations with Dark powersets.
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Per chance I am, I have to point out that neither Dark Armour nor Dark Melee look good when coloured black. Moreover, neither Dark Melee nor Dark Armour look good when coloured any dark shade of any colour. They don't look good because they are almost entirely transparent and barely even there. I would assume that the visual effect of darkness would grow stronger the darker the effect became, but the opposite is true. The strongest most visible, solid effects are actually those which have been given bright primary and secondary colours. I mean, for instance bright blue darkness.
By contrast, Dark Armour and Dark Melee are barely even there when they're coloured black, leading me to suspect that Dark powers don't actually use a Dark theme, hence why they become more transparent as they grow darker. I can live with Dark powers not supporting bright colours, but if they're not going to support bright colours and white, they NEED to support dark colours and black much better than they do now.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yet, much as I don't want to argue... I kind of have to.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
I understand your opinion, and accept that it matches the decision that was made when Power Customization was implemented, but I'd like to say that for a lot of players, City of Heroes' strong point is customization. This game, more than any other game, allows the players to define what is "signature" to their character. It was disappointing when these decisions were made for us, when we could have used the sets to create so many more concepts (full Ruby Armor, bright energy clouds) if we'd had access to the color options that other sets have. Also, dark options were allowed for Energy Blast, Energy Melee, and Energy Aura, which are supposed to be positive energy; it seems inconsistent to not allow light options for negative energy.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
I'd like to point however that the limited palettes for what you consider "thematically correct" for "dark" powers are actually BRIGHTER than a "bright" option would give you. The limited "dark" palette is dull and flat. Any color you use is a pastel and so soft and wishy washy. A "bright" option using a dark color can actually look rich and powerful. Consider warshades. They use negative energy powers but their powers are of a "bright" palette yet still dark and negative themed.
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And again - Warshades and Council Galaxies are proof positive that negative energy and dark powers CAN look very good in bright colours. Actually, Ghost Widow's "pastel darkness" in Soul Storm and Soul Tentacles isn't "dark" at all, yet that exists and it does actually look pretty good. Darkness is an abstract concept, and if someone interprets that abstraction as a brightly-coloured effect, then who does this hurt? How is this any different from (positive) energy effects being given a Dark theme? Why is it not odd to have dark fire or cold fire, yet it's odd to have bright darkness? Why, when it actually looks good?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Nice set of replies, Tunnel Rat. 
So now, my next things:
Can you revisit all the body Auras and add in options for Gloves And Eyes, Boots And Gloves, and Gloves, Eyes, And Boots? (Ya know, like Celestial has? )
Can we get a Full Body And Eyes (No Breath) version of Beastly Rage?
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I don't really have the time to look through 20+ pages of posts to see if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure this is the place to bring it up, so here goes:
Is it possible to alter whether path auras work at low movement speeds? Because here's the thing. Because of how the path auras work, auras like "streak" become INCREDIBLY bright if you're moving -slow-. This means that you leave a more pronounced streak when you're slowed or walking than when you're running at full speed.
Not only does this kinda defeat the purpose of the auras, but it basically renders the walk toggle utterly absurd looking.
So is it possible to have these effects scale -up- with speed, rather than down? Or barring that, at least have it so they don't "turn on" until you're actually running? I was seriously stoked about the "streak" effect for my speedster types, but the instant I toggled "walk", I was immediately on my way back to the tailor.
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Wow, with me being into digital art/3d graphics this thread was cool to stumble across 
.
Here are a couple things I've considered PMing Tunnel Rat about but decided it wasn't worth spamming her inbox for;
White/Black in power/aura customization; will we ever see the top row of the color palette be able to adjust colors 100% independent of opacity(ie:Click black on an aura and not have it disappear with the 5~% opacity instead of pure color black)?
Pathing Auras/General Auras; will we ever have the option to set a path aura in addition to a standard aura(in the same costume slot)? A lot of the pathing auras are appealing(I love the nice added touches for landing from jumps), but losing a character's signature like an eye effect or halo detracts from the usability 
. So far every(it's 2 or 3 now, wait nope 4 as of earlier this week) character I have utilizing a pathing aura has a separate, identical, costume with a "standing still"/costume presentation/combat aura replacing the pathing.
I also have loved the idea of possibilites made available if instead of things like "BioPlasma - Hair&Fists" we could mix and match pieces(full body eliminated) from 2 different sets. Like Glowing Aura-Head and Tarot Cards-Fist, etc. Of course the reason for 1 and only 1 aura per costume is to limit bandwith/framerate used/hindered per character, but I don't see(it may be there) the potential lag difference between my 2 previous examples, it's the same 2 areas, spaced out and not stacked right? I know it's also more a UI suggestion than FX but hey there it is 
I also like the little shimmer the rainbow pathing aura gives off while standing still, and have wished a couple different times now that effect was available without the intense path.
While I'm here another highfive to the FX department for the alternate CCE in flight effects I noticed sometime in the past couple months (ninjajump got my attention) . I didn't like the "footstomp" idea of PressureRelease, and hadn't bought the Steampunk pack. I bought the CCE with some of my first paragon points and hit it in flight and omg-that's-amazing-new-favorite-CCE-on-90%-of-toons lol. I think of it more as a harsher smokescreen(kinda thinking like stage-performing illusionist) than steam.
PS I also saw the Autumnal pathing aura in the store and a demo of it on youtube, and my first thought was also "wow that's a cool one, blossoming flowers would be a nice option too", so +1 to that suggestion that already got some redname attention .
Oh and also thanks for the Bats (Combat) Aura . Me and my friend both purchased and applied it, and we both had the combat wish and it was in patchnotes before I got around to suggesting it haha .
Edit: Oh hey look! Digging through the Dev Digest tonight I see someone posted the mix&match aura idea 2 weeks ago lol. I didn't see if it was cross-posted over to this thread as Noble Savage suggested to the guy, but;
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Originally Posted by spazmeer
i don't know if this has ever been mentioned, I know it's possible with the new tech they've been adding into the game, but what are the possibilities of having aura's on weapons? Melee weapons to be exact, adding an electric, fire or any of the current auras too 1 or 2 handed weapons. Just adding another aura section would be great for when you select your weapon, would fit right into the weapon selection part. Another idea is is having two aura's instead of just one, mixing two aura's on a character instead of just one? Any chance we might be able to implement that into the game? I think many players would get a huge kick out of that. I would haha.
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A reminder for Tunnel Rat (and Honey Badger!) about the conversation we had at the Summit concerning dialing down the FX on the Stalker Energy Aura powerset power Disrupt. Tunnel Rat, you mentioned that you might be able to achieve this through subtraction of excessive FX, but you'd have to look at it to get oriented around the specifics of what's (currently) going on with this power ... which is perfectly reasonable. I'm mentioning this here in your thread because *I'm* hard pressed to remember everything that people were talking to me about at various points during the day of the Summit, so I figure a bit of text here ought to make things easier for you.
Tunnel Rat, if you do find/beg/borrow/steal the time to look at Disrupt with an eye to modifying its FX, I'd like to ask that you change its default color(s) to more closely match those of red/gold color scheme of the Shields in the powerset (Kinetic, Power and Entropy).
And speaking of dialing down the FX in Energy Aura powers, would it be possible to reduce the brightness/opacity/something or other of the Energy Aura: Power Shield FX around the Chest part of the character avatar? This is an aesthetic request more than anything else. The way the FX for Power Shield play away from the body of your avatar is just fine, but the "burning fire/energy" effect that swirls around (and on and through) the chest of the avatar is ... a bit overdone. So this is a partial request for an FX dial-down on Power Shield. I ask this because Power Shield doesn't "add up" and overlay its FX with the other two shield powers in Energy Aura in as ... complimentary ... a fashion as the other two (Kinetic and Entropy) manage to.
And needless to say, it was wonderful meeting and talking to you and your ... Honey Badger. 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
If Dark Control is getting new, inky effects for the powers will other Dark powersets be given at least an option for these effects too? I haven't seen the effects but from what I've read of them they don't sound like they'd match the effects of Dark Affinity and Dark Assault.
First off, I was so happy to meet several of you at the Player Summit! Thanks so much to those of you who made it out. It may sound cheesy, but we really are just as excited to meet the players as you are to meet us! I had some great conversations, some regarding topics we've even covered in this thread.
When I last posted, some conversation was sparked about powersets with limited palettes, specifically Darkness-themed sets. Thank you for explaining your viewpoints and suggestions for the current customization options. I wanted to take a little time to address some of your points, and explain my own viewpoint a little more thoroughly.
As a developer, I'm always delighted to see players use customization to create their own power themes. (I think one of my favorite examples was a player who tinted Dark Blast brown to look like chest hair.) I think it's great if you want to tint Fire to look like pollen, or Energy to look like sunlight. But as an artist, I also have an obligation to make the powers and their customization options match the original theme of the powerset. In the case of Darkness, the brightness of the effects have a much more profound importance than it does in any other powerset. So while I understand your desire to have more customization, I feel this is where I should set the limit for now.
Some of you referenced the Warshade powers as an example of dark powers successfully mixing bright and dark elements. In terms of brightness and contrast, yes, I agree that dark-themed powers can look amazing with some bright elements. These elements have to be factored into the design of the set, though. Our current Darkness powers were designed before powers customization came along, and are very dependent on subtle coloring baked into the textures. It's a great look with the default colors, but isn't very conducive to customization, even with a dark palette. Because of the lack of contrast in the original design, introducing a bright/additive version isn't going to bring Darkness up to the Warshade or Soul powers' level of appeal.
This is partially why Darkness Control will differ from the rest of the dark powers. The new look should be much more receptive to the colors you choose.
Please feel free to continue discussing this topic. Perhaps we can settle on a compromise that allows you more customization while still being thematically appropriate for the set (and not just for Darkness-themed sets, but any set that has limited customization options). While I can't post as often as I'd like, I'm always reading your ideas and suggestions, and have them rolling around in my head when I'm working. This specific conversation already has me brainstorming about how to bring you guys more options for your powers.
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Ruh-roh, looks like I should have clarified what I meant a little better. I don't want to homogenize the fire powers. I agree this would be very boring and unrealistic. Ideally, though, all the different fires should look like they are from the same game. Of course, the hobo campfires in the back alleys should look different from your super-powered fire blasts. The context the fire appears in will always dictate its unique animation and shape. What bothers me about our fires in their current state is that there is a very noticeable variation in quality. This is what I'd like to address if we ever find the massive amount of time required to redo them. |
Originally Posted by Miuramir
Hearing the above from one of the more important artists at Paragon both worries and puzzles me. Real fire does NOT have a "consistent look".
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Originally Posted by Psychic Guardian
Pathing Auras/General Auras; will we ever have the option to set a path aura in addition to a standard aura(in the same costume slot)? A lot of the pathing auras are appealing(I love the nice added touches for landing from jumps), but losing a character's signature like an eye effect or halo detracts from the usability
. So far every(it's 2 or 3 now, wait nope 4 as of earlier this week) character I have utilizing a pathing aura has a separate, identical, costume with a "standing still"/costume presentation/combat aura replacing the pathing. |
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Originally Posted by Psychic Guardian
While I'm here another highfive to the FX department for the alternate CCE in flight effects I noticed sometime in the past couple months (ninjajump got my attention)
. I didn't like the "footstomp" idea of PressureRelease, and hadn't bought the Steampunk pack. I bought the CCE with some of my first paragon points and hit it in flight and omg-that's-amazing-new-favorite-CCE-on-90%-of-toons lol. |
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
If Dark Control is getting new, inky effects for the powers will other Dark powersets be given at least an option for these effects too? I haven't seen the effects but from what I've read of them they don't sound like they'd match the effects of Dark Affinity and Dark Assault.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
A reminder for Tunnel Rat (and Honey Badger!) about the conversation we had at the Summit concerning dialing down the FX on the Stalker Energy Aura powerset power Disrupt.
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Also, a special request from the Honey Badger (I know he wants a "cooler" redname but he is SO stuck with that.) We have some time coming up that will be specifically scheduled for auras. If you haven't gotten your aura or path aura suggestions in yet, please post them! We love hearing your ideas!
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Two words ...|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
Also, a special request from the Honey Badger (I know he wants a "cooler" redname but he is SO stuck with that.)
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SO DOOMED™ ...
In his defense, I did turn to him during the Powers panel (when you were all revved up about being able to swear!) and privately asked him, "Did you REALLY marry this woman?!?"
The guilty (yet unreservedly proud!) look on his face was SOOO worth it!
Total Kodak Moment right there.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Yes, he is stuck with that one.|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
Also, a special request from the Honey Badger (I know he wants a "cooler" redname but he is SO stuck with that.) We have some time coming up that will be specifically scheduled for auras. If you haven't gotten your aura or path aura suggestions in yet, please post them! We love hearing your ideas! |
And there is a reason he is stuck with that one.
It fits the bill.
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It was good seeing you again, Tunnel Rat, and it was great to meet your husband, Honey Badger! (He doesn't really look like a Honey Badger, though. I was disappointed.)|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
First off, I was so happy to meet several of you at the Player Summit! Thanks so much to those of you who made it out. It may sound cheesy, but we really are just as excited to meet the players as you are to meet us! I had some great conversations, some regarding topics we've even covered in this thread.
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| As a developer, I'm always delighted to see players use customization to create their own power themes. (I think one of my favorite examples was a player who tinted Dark Blast brown to look like chest hair.) |
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| Also, a special request from the Honey Badger (I know he wants a "cooler" redname but he is SO stuck with that.) We have some time coming up that will be specifically scheduled for auras. If you haven't gotten your aura or path aura suggestions in yet, please post them! We love hearing your ideas! |
Example 1 (youtube) -- Note that I'm referring to the "charge up", not the blast. This one is kind of like the Kirby Dots aura often requested, though I don't know what most people's ideas of their motion would be, given that Kirby Dots are usually used in still images.
Example 2 (jpg-- imagine the rings slowly pulling inward, or flowing outward)
Thanks again for responding, and for the solicit for ideas!
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Actually, this is something you may want to address directly - what do you personally see as being the theme of each set? All too often, the same issue comes up where players and artists are seemingly talking about the same things (say, "fire") but what players have in their mind's eye is something very different from what the artist does. It causes issues of false expectations and confounding artistic directions, even though no-one's really at fault, so to speak. It's just that some themes are broader and more abstract than most people think.|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
Please feel free to continue discussing this topic. Perhaps we can settle on a compromise that allows you more customization while still being thematically appropriate for the set (and not just for Darkness-themed sets, but any set that has limited customization options).
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Personally, I'd like to hear your take on what at least our most basic themes should look like or resemble. I actually have a few guesses for some of them.
Fire: Are you looking for a slow-burning fire like that of camp fire or the fast-burning jets of fire like that in a blast furnace or a high-intensity fire? Are you even looking at fire at all, or are you more looking at explosions? The Pyronic Judgement, for instance, is something I expected to be a giant explosion where instead it more resembles a fuel air bomb.
Ice: Are you looking more at players throwing ice shards or players generating ice shards around their enemies? Are we looking at encasing our enemies in ice or literally freezing them? Are we talking about specifically solid water ice, or "ice" as a general term for super-cooled substances, like what the T1000 was turned into near the end of Terminator 2?
Darkness: This is just abstract, so what is your take on it? Are we talking darkness as in literal shadows, darkness like an ink drop in water or darkness like a forcefield like what Raven of Teen Titans fame has? Or is it just figurative darkness that's a representative stand-in for scary illusions? Are we talking demons or skulls or tentacles or even something else entirely?
Radiation: To the best of my knowledge, radioactive radiation is invisible and exerts very little mechanical force, so its representation in-game has to be symbolic, but what does it resemble? Are we talking the exaggerated giant electron orbits of an atom? Right now it seems to resemble green gas in many ways (especially Nuclear Blast, for some reason), but is that it? Are we talking somehow visible x-rays? Moreover, are we irradiating people with direct alpha, beta and/or gamma radiation, or are we contaminating them with radioactive particles and chemicals? The former would be more akin to directed energy attacks whereas the latter would be more akin to gas or dust.
Psychics and mind control: What do these represent? Are we literally shooting bolts of shaped psychic energy? Are we hypnotising people with spinning spiral shapes? Are we fooling people with illusions? Is it a sort of poltergeist telekinesis? There are a lot of ways to interpret psychic powers (my favourite happens to be FEAR), so my question then becomes... Why are they pink?
Sonics: BABs once said "I locked myself in a dark room and yelled until I saw colour. I saw orange" as an explanation for why Defender Sonic powers are orange by default. But what do you, personally, see sonics as being? Do they represent us literally yelling at people? Are they some kind of sub-audible ultra-sound? Are we affecting people's hearing or are we, err... Liquifying their organs? Or are we just producing supersonic shockwaves like those of true explosions?
Empathy: What IS empathy supposed to look like? I get that it's green because green means healing, but what are people actually supposed to be doing to heal their allies? Or is it better that it's open to interpretation?
That's the sort of thing I mean.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And NOW the real reason comes to light. Not that it isn't a valid reason if disappointing. Essentially I think you are telling us that because the darkness set is a legacy set that just doesn't work as well as the others with the original customization we got, that it would be too expensive in time and resources to give us an alternate version that would work with the bright palette. I am disheartened but understand. I hope at some point our paragon spending sprees on the market will produce enough resources to allocate to this fix.|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
A full makeover for the older Darkness sets is currently not in the cards, as it'd take weeks of time away from developing new powers for players and enemy groups. We are exploring more efficient ways for giving you alternate FX for existing powersets, though.
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With that said what about a powerset like pain domination? It uses most of the exact same animations as empathy and other powersets. Would it be possible to see that set at least get a "bright" option?
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Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
This was a sentiment expressed by several players when we first introduced path auras. We are looking into a dual aura system that would allow you to choose a regular aura and a path aura, or mix and match two regular auras. I don't have information on when it'll come out, but it's definitely on a wishlist.
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Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
I think the new look for Darkness Control will mesh with the old theme fairly well, but I'll be sure to monitor the feedback on its visuals once it hits beta. We can provide alternate options for powers that Darkness Control borrowed from existing Darkness-themed sets. A full makeover for the older Darkness sets is currently not in the cards, as it'd take weeks of time away from developing new powers for players and enemy groups. We are exploring more efficient ways for giving you alternate FX for existing powersets, though.
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And lastly a plug for pool power and APP/PPP customization... any progress on that front? And if so please take an extra glance at the soul mastery power Soul Tentacles for some ideas on how to eventually make the Dark Miasma and Dark Blast sets work with a bright palette. >.>
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Does he know how nasty Honey Badgers are?
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Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
Also, a special request from the Honey Badger (I know he wants a "cooler" redname but he is SO stuck with that.) |
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Good question, Sam. Let's talk shop!
The fine details of what the power is actually doing, I'll usually leave up to the player. Are Darkness' effects shadows or illusions? Is that actually a chattering skull erupting from your face, or is it just a product of your target's hallucinations? Are you causing permanent damage with your Sonic attacks, or temporarily deafening your target? That's up to you, and really, answering those questions doesn't change the look of a power much, from an artist's perspective.
When we design powerset effects, we keep two goals in mind. The visuals should be easily associated with the powerset's theme, while being consistent with the amount of detail and stylization in the game. (I think CoH shoots for a simplified, but still dynamically exaggerated version of realism, and I try to reflect this in the effects I make.) We also treat each powerset as its own specialized case, and make sure the visuals are appropriate for its mechanics. To put it simply, attacks should look damaging and painful. Buffs should look protective and rejuvenating. Mez attacks should look like they're inhibiting the target. When it comes to the players' acceptance of the effects, I find that believability - that is, whether the power represents the theme and the mechanics of the power well - is more important than the actual type of fire being used. You mentioned you would have expected a different kind of explosion for Pyronic than the one the FX team ultimately delivered. But you still seem to like the power. Really, any number of huge, fiery explosions would have worked just as well. But the type of explosion isn't as important as selling the feeling of a huge, deadly fire-based attack. And obviously this doesn't apply just to fire, but to all of our power themes.
The process gets a little trickier with abstract concepts, like Empathy and Darkness. I'd also lump in real-world concepts that don't have an easily recognizable visual, like Radiation and Gravity, into this category. These are the more difficult sets where expectations will be all over the place. And it's not just a division between the expectations of players and developers. There will be tons of variation in the answers of any two players, and any two developers, when they are asked, "What does the physical manifestation of Gravity look like?" You may find some common themes - and these are important to pay attention to - but you'll likely not reach a consensus on details. This is where the artist has to sit down and invent a visual language that represents that abstract concept.
I didn't work on most of the powersets you mentioned, but I feel the approach to Sonic and Radiation is a common solution for these abstract themes. Sonic's expanding rings and Radiation's green light and orbiting electrons aren't inventions of CoH artists; they are common, and therefore easily recognizable, representations of those themes, borrowed from movies, games and comics. Similarly, this is why Psychic powers are pink and Empathy powers are green (though I think their shapes and animation sell the effects just as well as their color). The current FX team borrows just as aggressively. I borrowed Time Manipulation's characteristic swirl from old sci-fi shows. Honey Badger borrowed Beam Rifle's effects from, what's it called... that movie about ghosts? We add a lot of our own ideas on top of these borrowed ideas, but the reason we stick to these conventions at all is because it's crucial for our effects to read clearly.
This is why adding a bright palette to Darkness, for example, gives me pause. It violates one of our two main goals in designing a powerset - making sure the effects clearly represent the theme. Players are free to pretend their fire is pollen. But ultimately, I have to focus on making fire look like fire, not pollen. Likewise, players are free to pretend that their Darkness powers are souls, or demons, or chest hair. But because Darkness, by its most basic definition, suggests dark colors, I feel obligated to offer you options that are in the spirit of that theme.
I hope this answers your question!
And I'm already seeing some awesome aura suggestions! Honey Badger is grateful.
I'd love to see an aura that looked similar to the celestial wings but also covered the full body. Something very big and majestic. I currently use a combo of an aura and the celestial wings but I'd love to have an option to have them visible in combat only. An aura like i mentioned would do that >_> Are wing-like auras a possibility? Especially since you mentioned the possibility of dual-auras in the future >.> Would be nice to have aura based wings and have a trench coat or other back item to boot!
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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And energy blast should look... bubbly? I 'v heard that energy's fx was imported from a failed water power concept. And well it looks it. Or at least it doesn't look like what a indiscriminate energy blast of epic power should look like. More like... don't know. It really doesn't fit with any them I can think of.
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Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
When we design powerset effects, we keep two goals in mind. The visuals should be easily associated with the powerset's theme, while being consistent with the amount of detail and stylization in the game. (I think CoH shoots for a simplified, but still dynamically exaggerated version of realism, and I try to reflect this in the effects I make.) We also treat each powerset as its own specialized case, and make sure the visuals are appropriate for its mechanics. To put it simply, attacks should look damaging and painful. Buffs should look protective and rejuvenating. Mez attacks should look like they're inhibiting the target. |
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This relates somewhat to a suggestion I just posted, although I'm looking more at the self-affecting powers, where your post is specifically touching on attacks and (de)buffs.|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
Good question, Sam. Let's talk shop!
The fine details of what the power is actually doing, I'll usually leave up to the player. Are Darkness' effects shadows or illusions? Is that actually a chattering skull erupting from your face, or is it just a product of your target's hallucinations? Are you causing permanent damage with your Sonic attacks, or temporarily deafening your target? That's up to you, and really, answering those questions doesn't change the look of a power much, from an artist's perspective. |
If a dark armor character doesn't want 6 layers of clouds and bubbles topped with floating skulls, rings around their heads and sparkles, their only option is to turn off their toggles. Likewise, a character who already used the Stone skin texture has to layer extra rocks on top to get protection, and a character who wants the more violent flames from Omega on their Fiery Aura character or the stormy lightning of Thunderhead on Electric Armor has to layer over the powers' auras, and hope that it looks good. Is there any chance that the elemental armors could also get "Minimal FX" options, so that we can use these awesome auras, instead of losing them in the rest of the ones we're forced to wear?
And if this isn't your balliwick, I totally understand. But maybe you could show it to the person who would handle it?
@Roderick
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That's actually a very good angle to look at things from, and one I seem to have neglected. Well said. Attacks should indeed look like what they do and... Honestly, I find that a few (of the old ones that you didn't work on) don't quite live up to that. I bugged BABs about the effects of Sniper Blast from Energy Blast, just because it looks like a very wimpy power, yet it does lots of knockback and damage. To my eyes, if it'll be damaging it should be a giant blue fireball, or otherwise if it should be precise it should be a literal beam like Blazing Bolt. BABs never acted on it as this was prior to power customization, but I still hate the look of that power as it just doesn't look like it should hit as hard as it does.|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
To put it simply, attacks should look damaging and painful. Buffs should look protective and rejuvenating. Mez attacks should look like they're inhibiting the target. When it comes to the players' acceptance of the effects, I find that believability - that is, whether the power represents the theme and the mechanics of the power well - is more important than the actual type of fire being used.
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Getting powers to look like what they do is a great idea. I should probably compile a list of the ones I think do that and the ones I think don't. Most Blaster T3 powers fall short, sadly. Bitter Ice Blast is just wimpy and for all the love I have for Blaze, it still looks like a very small fireball. Power Burst is awesome, though
I like the way you look at these, and encourage you to continue to do so.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
You mentioned you would have expected a different kind of explosion for Pyronic than the one the FX team ultimately delivered. But you still seem to like the power. Really, any number of huge, fiery explosions would have worked just as well. But the type of explosion isn't as important as selling the feeling of a huge, deadly fire-based attack. And obviously this doesn't apply just to fire, but to all of our power themes.
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But my expectation of what it would be was informed by Fire Blast's Inferno, which is a giant, loud, shockwave-heavy explosion, whereas Pyronic Judgement is more of a flash burn. Inferno blows enemies up, Pyronic burns enemies. This is where "what do you envision?" comes into play. Do you envision fire as an explosion with a supersonic pressure shockwave of expanding gas, or do you see fire as heat and burning? I ask this, because this defines what characters fire powers work for visually.That's not to say fire as burning is bad. That's what fire is. But it may leave the door open for an "Explosions Blast" set for Blasters, Defenders and Corruptors, one based around either literal explosives or otherwise projecting explosions at a distance.
To end the theme on fire, check out the difference between a gasoline explosion and an RDX explosion. One is a huge, relatively slow-burning fireball, the other is a high-velocity explosive. I'm not sure if both count as fire... In fact, I'm pretty sure the high explosive doesn't. But that's kind of the point - if we view fire as meaning burning, then that leaves the door open for explosions as another theme.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbLlhufO9CwThis is why adding a bright palette to Darkness, for example, gives me pause. It violates one of our two main goals in designing a powerset - making sure the effects clearly represent the theme. Players are free to pretend their fire is pollen. But ultimately, I have to focus on making fire look like fire, not pollen. Likewise, players are free to pretend that their Darkness powers are souls, or demons, or chest hair. But because Darkness, by its most basic definition, suggests dark colors, I feel obligated to offer you options that are in the spirit of that theme.[/QUOTE]
I have a question here, actually: What's your take on Ghost Widow's "pastel darkness," particularly her Soul Storm and Soul Tentacles? To me, they look like "bright darkness" and while they do look slightly goofy, they also look pretty good and like something I'd use if I could match the rest of my Dark powers to that. I'd just like to know how you feel about those.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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For me, this runs the gamut. Everything from the Flares power, which looks a bit like bottle rocket fireworks, to Flamethrower and Ignite in Assault Rifle's as well as Fire Breath's "FWOOSH!" of burning fire, to Archery's Fire Arrow and Explosive Arrow, on out to things like Trip Mine and Time Bomb's "BA-KOOM!" of explosives. I guess the "easy way" to break these things apart, thematically is, as mentioned, whether the damage is being caused by either combustion or detonation. In some cases, such as Flares, it's being caused by both (given the way the power animates and sounds). So this isn't as simple as it sounds (at first glance). But it does make for a good rule of thumb as to whether damage is being caused (primarily) by Burn or Boom as far as how the "Fire" FX ought to be working.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Fire: Are you looking for a slow-burning fire like that of camp fire or the fast-burning jets of fire like that in a blast furnace or a high-intensity fire? Are you even looking at fire at all, or are you more looking at explosions? The Pyronic Judgement, for instance, is something I expected to be a giant explosion where instead it more resembles a fuel air bomb.
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Conveniently enough, most of the "Boom" type of Fire Damage powers involve some sort of Smash/Lethal component to them, which makes differentiating these types of FX easier in terms of concept (although there are exceptions, of course, like Flares).
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Sonics: BABs once said "I locked myself in a dark room and yelled until I saw colour. I saw orange" as an explanation for why Defender Sonic powers are orange by default. But what do you, personally, see sonics as being?
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Except that Radiation *does* have a real world visual effect associated with it which everyone should recognize ... Cherenkov Radiation.|
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
I'd also lump in real-world concepts that don't have an easily recognizable visual, like Radiation and Gravity, into this category.
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| The characteristic blue glow of nuclear reactors is due to Cherenkov radiation. |
I never have understood though why the original art team went with GREEN rather than a Soft Diffuse Blue/White color for Radiation. Only thing I can think of is that "radiation" was always "green" in the context of The Incredible Hulk (among others).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Sonic is probably the one thing in this game that I have the hardest time taking seriously, and I played Psychic Blast. Yelling at your enemies has simply always seemed irredeemably goofy to me, even when Blackbolt is doing it. In seven years, I've never had a character that made sense to yell at people. Now, if we could shoot sonics out of our hands like Spider-Man villain the Shocker, that I'd probably play. Or if, like the Council Sonic troops or the Goldbrickers, we could shoot our sonics out rifles or big guns. Yeah I'd play that. I'd have played that on day one. But shouting? Pass.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
On this, I personally think that Sonic Blast "better fits" my conception of Sonics better than Sonic Resonance does. That's because I envision "Sonics" as being something which distorts the air it is passing through ... which means it is transparent (mostly), but can be seen by the different refraction index of the light passing through the air in that space. The primary effect for Sonics should be (of course) Sound FX, rather than Visual FX. You run into a problem though when dealing with persistent effects, especially bubbles around your character, where a constant rippling refraction can cause a most unwelcome DISTORTION of what you're seeing around you (at all times). In this respect, I personally see the bubble of FX around the new Giant Hamidon Monster in First Ward to be more like my personal expectation for Sound Bubbles than the legacy FX used by Sonic Resonance. A very slow, "drippy" bubble like that, done up as a CLEAR effect which simply distorts the light passing through it makes a better fit with my personal concept for how to do "bubbles with sound" in this case.
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Also, if we're talking about sonics, doesn't that usually refer to ultrasound? As in, sound above the range of human hearing? Or are we just referring to just very loud sound within the audible range?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Thank you so so much for the response Tunnel Rat!!