So now CoH is a "raiding" game.


Acroyear2

 

Posted

After seven years, the entire level 50 progression system has been moved to raiding. Scalable small group and solo play, always the games biggest strength, has now become the after thought. With Positron's latest letter the dev team is revealing a design where raids are the primary progression and small group and solo play come months later as an after thought. I am unhappy with this design paradigm.

Worse, from what I can tell to make meaningful progression on my 10 level 50s will take hundreds of hours grinding out the same two raids.

Actually "the same two raids" is off topic. There could be 8 more raids and it still wouldn't make me happy. The problem isn't that there's only two raids, the problem is that after 7 years the devs are moving the game to a raiding system. Endgame progression? Yes please. Turning the game into a raiding system? No thanks.

The strength of the game has always been its robust, scaling group mission system. When friends ask why I still play the game I've always said it's because I can log into the game and being doing a meaningful mission within two minutes.

That's all changed.

By making end game progression all about raiding the game has pulled a 7 year bait and switch where it's abandoned it strengths and adopted the same old tired idiom that the other MMOs (that I don't like) use.

Why am I unhappy? It's not that I hate raiding. I don't mind occasionally jumping into a league and grouping. The problems arise when this becomes the preferred play style.

First, the time to form a raid group varies from 15 minutes if I am lucky and things are hopping to 45 minutes if things are slow. I usually play in two hour increments. That means to progress I am basically usually wasting 25%+ of my playtime hopping in place waiting for a group to form. Also, for every successful TF or raid I run there is one where the raid half forms, I wait around for 30 minutes, and the whole thing is abandoned due to lack of players.

The LFG league system isn't working for some reason. Each time I have entered that automatic queue I am still sitting there 30 minutes later with no feedback.

Even if these systems were working, the "sweet spot" of the game is the 2-4 range. This is where I've always had the most fun, and where CoH shines. This is where I don't mind grouping with a Mastermind because in this group size the pets don't crowd the screen. Even in 8 man groups everything tends to blur into a zerg. No other MMO I've tried supports this sweet spot of 2-4 players like CoH, and the game has moved completely away from this strength.

(This is at the same time when the competition is finally releasing mission arcs that are high quality and scale for 1-5 players. Basically they are hitting this experience just as CoH is abandoning it.)

I supposed there are people that like hopping in the RWZ until groups form and power run league missions over and over and over getting endgame loot. I am happy for them, and I am glad that the dev team is supporting that playstyle. Doing so, however, at the expense of solo and small group play and then throwing on that progression months later as an afterthought is not cool and not something I want to see from the game in the future.

I know in Positron's letter he said they are working on solo and small group ways of obtaining Incarnate rewards. To be honest, the fact that this is added as an afterthought months after the system goes into place doesn't bolster my confidence. This type of play shouldn't be an afterthought of a departure from the core gaming into a raiding end game.

TLDR version. The core strength of the game for seven years has been scaling small group and solo play. Changing the entire game to rely only on raiding for end game progression is bad. While having a raiding element to the game is fine, please make solo and small group play a primary focus for progression, not as an afterthought to raiding.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

You still have all the non-Incarnate content available. The developers have taken nothing away from you. And even then, only the Alpha slot level shift can be used outside of the Incarnate trials.

Really, all this crying about not being able to get Incarnate abilities outside of running the Incarnate trials is sounding like, "I want to have my cake and eat it too." Most of the Incarnate abilities are for the Incarnate trials. You can still run level 50 missions or a Lady Grey Task Force without having a Tier 4 Destiny or Lore just fine.


@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too

 

Posted

There have been A LOT of topics on this subject already, and the devs have acknowledged that they have read and heard how many players are upset by the fact that the trials are the only efficient way to acquire the Incarnate slots/powers. They have also said (I believe via the Anniversary Address, if I recall correctly) that they will be looking into some more small-group-friendly options for Incarnate progression.

For now, remember this: Development of balanced content takes time. I bet their intent since day 1 has been to give us a small scale option for progression, but it better suited them to get the large-scale progression option out sooner, given the fact that currently there are a surplus of 50s waiting to go Incarnate. Once that level evens out, small-scale progression will probably become more common-place as the number of non-incarnate 50s decreases.


@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.

 

Posted

I disagree that the game has been built around this "sweet spot" of 2-4. Missions set at standard don't spawn enough enemies for my AoEs to feel truly useful. Granted, there's a slider to virtually pad a teams numbers, but that's not the standard the game was designed around.

And calling what the Trials bring to the game "raiding" is akin to mistaking "The Cat in the Hat" for "War and Peace"


Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Worse, from what I can tell to make meaningful progression on my 10 level 50s will take hundreds of hours grinding out the same two raids.
Define "meaningful" progress? Personally, I would define meaningful as having uncommons in all 5 slots. That takes significantly less than hundreds of hours for ten characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
The strength of the game has always been its robust, scaling group mission system. When friends ask why I still play the game I've always said it's because I can log into the game and being doing a meaningful mission within two minutes.

That's all changed.
Strange. I was able to log on last night and be in a mission inside a minute. What's changed in your mind? The fact that you have content that takes longer than two minutes to form? How has that changed from pre-Issue 20? Even forming an ubiquitous ITF can take 20 minutes or more at slow times.

But solo content can and always has been able to be done quickly upon logging in and is still there last I checked.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord View Post
You still have all the non-Incarnate content available. The developers have taken nothing away from you. And even then, only the Alpha slot level shift can be used outside of the Incarnate trials.

Really, all this crying about not being able to get Incarnate abilities outside of running the Incarnate trials is sounding like, "I want to have my cake and eat it too."

Or "I'd quite like to continue to progress my character without grinding through that laggy mess again"

I want to play my 50, I want to try the new powers. I don't ever, ever want to do Lambda ever again, it's a horrific, laggy shambles. BAF is better, but is still hard going on my machine.


 

Posted

I believe last month's Producer's Letter contained vague language along the lines of "we've heard you about wanting solo options for Incarnate content and we're looking into it." So there's hope.


Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.

 

Posted

Quote:
TLDR version. The core strength of the game for seven years has been scaling small group and solo play. Changing the entire game to rely only on raiding for end game progression is bad. While having a raiding element to the game is fine, please make solo and small group play a primary focus for progression, not as an afterthought to raiding.
Your thoughts are well founded but there is however a few points that i feel should be brought up, i myself am a solo player 3/4s of the time but i do love the experience that these trials bring.
I never have and never will like the idea of a raiding system, one that takes hours to set up and one wrong move could wreck the whole thing but i honestly feel the raids [can we call them trials please?] are a much better version than the ones in other games.

For example lets take a look at the trials/raids throughout the lifespan of CoH and how they have improved over time.
  • Hami Raid - On majority of servers this is the hardest raid in game to both organise and complete due to having to get a large number of players online at one time for the actual raid plus EoE hunting beforehand too. They made a mistake in this one simply because the majority of CoH players do not like trials/tfs/raids that take over 90 minutes in general. Also the fact that you actually have to complete this raid to even get a reward at the end turned unexperienced players off completely.
  • Mothership Raid - This saw a huge improvement in the method of a raid system. For the first time there was now no need for a large amount of players [yes it makes it easier but is no longer essential] and organising beforehand. The rewards were on a continual basis based on your teams participation and the end prize of temp powers and costume pieces made the MSR worthwhile on a regular basis.
  • BAF/Lambda - Again they took into account that people still thought the MSR was on the borderline for too long and so they shortened things again without making it lose its "epic" feel. Most runs take on average 20 - 30 minutes to complete and the rewards are constant now [via the merits].
So my point being is that raids have always been added to the game as endgame content, its just that it is now because of character progression that they have been thrown into the spotlight. The PS team has said that they are making incarnate content for solo/team players too in the form of arcs/repeatables and while you and some players might think it is bad form that they have released it without that option, a lot of us do think it was good of them to release it now instead of waiting another 6 months.

When the MSR got released people were complaining that they would never be able to get all the costume pieces and temp powers needed because they were solo players. If you look at it now, im not sure which of the two options is quicker.

Quote:
the "sweet spot" of the game is the 2-4 range
See but that is down to your own ideals of what is classed as fun in this game. There are some things in this game which i point blank refuse because they hold zero appeal to me yet are very popular, for example i love being a team full of squishies with enemies buffed and players debuffed set via ouroboros.
Thats my idea of fun but i rarely get to experience that due to it being available for arcs only via ouroboros and not many people like to flashback an entire arc for the sake of it.

Quote:
Worse, from what I can tell to make meaningful progression on my 10 level 50s will take hundreds of hours grinding out the same two raids.
My final point will be that more raids are coming out, one of the new raids is even in a closed beta this month we've been told and will be releasing new ones on a regular basis. So do what this game has been about from the start and enjoy the journey, until this is content in the game that says you MUST do these trials nonstop to get your powers i really cant see any real reason why players who dont want to do it . . . to do it.

Just enjoy the game you want to enjoy it.


@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

 

Posted

I do wish we knew which Dev went "You know our soloable, alt friendly MMO that we've had up and running for six years? Let's have an end game system that is nothing like that. I know lets call the issue City of Warcraft just to make things clear where our focus is now." because he or she deserves a smack.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
I do wish we knew which Dev went "You know our soloable, alt friendly MMO that we've had up and running for six years? Let's have an end game system that is nothing like that. I know lets call the issue City of Warcraft just to make things clear where our focus is now." because he or she deserves a smack.

List of things ingame that are designed to require at least one team or more.
  • Every single taskforce
  • Every single trial [the hollows trial requires you MUST have 8 players to complete it, so if one crashes you got to start over]
  • The hamidon raid
  • The mothership raid
  • Every giant monster
  • The Lusca giant monster needs more than one team [pref 2 - 4]
  • Invasions [while you dont NEED a team for this, it really is designed for one]
  • AV takedowns in RV
Plus many more . . . . . .

It really annoys me that people are describing these as tasks that takes a lot of players when they require less than a MSR and less than half a hami raid.


@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Also, for every successful TF or raid I run there is one where the raid half forms, I wait around for 30 minutes, and the whole thing is abandoned due to lack of players.
Why not just run a BAF with 12 people or a Lambda with 8? It's very doable and, in some ways, more entertaining than the packed-trial zergfests. Not that packed-trial zergfests don't have their own charm. The trials scale to league size anyway.

There's no good reason for a "half formed" raid to collapse without starting.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post

It really annoys me that people are describing these as tasks that takes a lot of players when they require less than a MSR and less than half a hami raid.

Please don't put words into my mouth, I'm not complaining about the size of the raids, merely that there is no solo progression, and that I entirely despise the 'Daily Quest' method of keeping a subscription base.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord View Post
You still have all the non-Incarnate content available. The developers have taken nothing away from you. And even then, only the Alpha slot level shift can be used outside of the Incarnate trials.

Really, all this crying about not being able to get Incarnate abilities outside of running the Incarnate trials is sounding like, "I want to have my cake and eat it too." Most of the Incarnate abilities are for the Incarnate trials. You can still run level 50 missions or a Lady Grey Task Force without having a Tier 4 Destiny or Lore just fine.
The whole of my post talks about how raiding is an unsatisfactory for end game progression, which means to most people a direction for completed level 50s with maxed levels and completed IO builds to advance. Saying that the old content still there is totally irrelevant since the whole post talks about end game progression and that old content you are talking about no longer provides progression to those characters.

Next, your point that the end game raiding provides some rewards that are only useful in end game raids only bolsters my argument. Thanks, though.

While the "have your cake" comment might be useful to sound dismissive it doesn't actually relate to anything I said.

For seven years the game's strength has been scalable small group content that makes it convenient and fun to group in a wide variety of set ups. Raiding is completely contrary to this strength. I don't want the devs to abandon this type of play when designing an endgame. If I wanted to raid for loot I'd be playing WoW.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Please don't put words into my mouth, I'm not complaining about the size of the raids, merely that there is no solo progression, and that I entirely despise the 'Daily Quest' method of keeping a subscription base.
We don't have to put words into your mouth.

You are complaining that there is no solo-progression. Fine.

This is Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

The developers do not have to provide a solo option for anything.

The developers SHOULD not have to provide a solo option for everything.

The developers SHOULD not have to rework their development plans to accommodate whiny and obnoxious players.

Let me be clear. The developers have already stated, very explicitly, that methods are in development to enable additional methods of incarnate progression

You, and many other players, are whining like weedwackers because those methods are not yet implemented.

You, and many other players, are for some reason hung up on the idea that the Trails are all there is, and there ever will be.

You, and many other players, are for some reason hung up on the idea that you are entitled to play the game your way, and how you like.

Let me clue you in. You. Are Not.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
The core strength of the game for seven years has been scaling small group and solo play. Changing the entire game to rely only on raiding for end game progression is bad. While having a raiding element to the game is fine, please make solo and small group play a primary focus for progression, not as an afterthought to raiding.
Be patient and see what comes along in the next issue. The next two trials are coming between issues, from what we've been hearing, so it is unlikely issue 21 will focus exclusively on more trials.

Seriously, this JUST came out within the last couple months. It is extremely premature to be saying "We'll never get anything but raiding now!!!!"

If a few issues pass and we get nothing but more trials, maybe then you can start complaining about it.

Also, if the "end game progression" was just a series of story arcs and a couple TFs....exactly how would you know that you are playing the end game? The fact that the trials are different than anything else in the game is, to my perspective, a good thing.

I guarantee that if the much hyped end game had been nothing more than a couple stry arcs and a TF or two, you'd see just as many, if not more people complaining that they waited 7 years and paid extra money for some crap that is exactly like the rest of the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

When I hear of players getting demoted and bounced from SGs for lack of 'progression' or how I have to do 'homework' on how to dance about to succeed in a raid or having to grind for mats to participate in a raid or having an acceptable 'gearscore' to participate in a raid, then any arguments related to a certain other MMORPG have merit.

But I don't, so they don't. The closest is knowing what powers to use in Lambda, and you can pick up on that after your first run. CoH endgame raiding is exactly the kind of casual raiding I want to embrace.


Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Define "meaningful" progress? Personally, I would define meaningful as having uncommons in all 5 slots. That takes significantly less than hundreds of hours for ten characters.



Strange. I was able to log on last night and be in a mission inside a minute. What's changed in your mind? The fact that you have content that takes longer than two minutes to form? How has that changed from pre-Issue 20? Even forming an ubiquitous ITF can take 20 minutes or more at slow times.

But solo content can and always has been able to be done quickly upon logging in and is still there last I checked.
I guess I don't understand how you could have logged onto a level 50 that has completed their IO build and alpha slot and made meaningful progression on that character. Is there some content that provide progression to my IO'd out 50s that I missed?

If you point is that I can log onto my many 30's alt and still play the game then while that is true it is irrelevant to the point of end game progression being designed as primarily a raiding experience.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post
List of things ingame that are designed to require at least one team or more.
  • Every single taskforce
  • Every single trial [the hollows trial requires you MUST have 8 players to complete it, so if one crashes you got to start over]
  • The hamidon raid
  • The mothership raid
  • Every giant monster
  • The Lusca giant monster needs more than one team [pref 2 - 4]
  • Invasions [while you dont NEED a team for this, it really is designed for one]
  • AV takedowns in RV
Plus many more . . . . . .

It really annoys me that people are describing these as tasks that takes a lot of players when they require less than a MSR and less than half a hami raid.
None of these provides exclusive rewards for an entire section of the game. All of these are an occasional activity that supplement the game, not replace them. I am required to do none of these to progress.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
The whole of my post talks about how raiding is an unsatisfactory for end game progression, which means to most people a direction for completed level 50s with maxed levels and completed IO builds to advance. Saying that the old content still there is totally irrelevant since the whole post talks about end game progression and that old content you are talking about no longer provides progression to those characters.
But all content now has the chance to drop shards which can be converted into threads. It is a much slower rate of progression but to say there is no progression with the old content is not true.
At level 50 2.5 million for every 10 shards to convert into 10 threads is 100% doable, at the rates the shard drops a player should be getting a lot more than that without the need to sell items. So yes it means people who dont like the invention system too.

Plus to convert the threads into components to make the powers is free until you start getting to tier 3 so i really dont see a problem here?

Quote:
Next, your point that the end game raiding provides some rewards that are only useful in end game raids only bolsters my argument. Thanks, though
The only reward that the powers provide are level boosts. All the stats/power effects of the actual powers can be used anywhere in the game.
I have 5 level 50s now [maybe 6] and i have fully incarnated my main but then just gradually doing the others as i play them normally using the old content.
The only problem solo players should have i think is the speed of which the progression is and the cost of tier 3 and above.


@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
None of these provides exclusive rewards for an entire section of the game. All of these are an occasional activity that supplement the game, not replace them. I am required to do none of these to progress.

A lot of players in the game belong to a group people call "badgers". A lot of those players like to solo however if they want these badges they MUST team with a lot of people which can put them off the game.
Hami-o's were out before inventions and were seen at the time as character progression due to the amount they buffed you by.


@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
We don't have to put words into your mouth.

You are complaining that there is no solo-progression. Fine.

This is Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

The developers do not have to provide a solo option for anything.

The developers SHOULD not have to provide a solo option for everything.

The developers SHOULD not have to rework their development plans to accommodate whiny and obnoxious players.

Let me be clear. The developers have already stated, very explicitly, that methods are in development to enable additional methods of incarnate progression

You, and many other players, are whining like weedwackers because those methods are not yet implemented.

You, and many other players, are for some reason hung up on the idea that the Trails are all there is, and there ever will be.

You, and many other players, are for some reason hung up on the idea that you are entitled to play the game your way, and how you like.

Let me clue you in. You. Are Not.

Now do the rest of the forums and the game a favor, knock the whining off.
You make it sound like posts that express dissatisfaction with the current design direction of the endgame are automatically whines. I don't agree with that point of view.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furio View Post
I disagree that the game has been built around this "sweet spot" of 2-4. Missions set at standard don't spawn enough enemies for my AoEs to feel truly useful. Granted, there's a slider to virtually pad a teams numbers, but that's not the standard the game was designed around.

And calling what the Trials bring to the game "raiding" is akin to mistaking "The Cat in the Hat" for "War and Peace"
The sweet spot is my personal preference; what I like most. The game has supported this preference very well in the past. The new endgame no longer supports it.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post
A lot of players in the game belong to a group people call "badgers". A lot of those players like to solo however if they want these badges they MUST team with a lot of people which can put them off the game.
Hami-o's were out before inventions and were seen at the time as character progression due to the amount they buffed you by.
I have no problem with some badges requiring groups. I have no problem with some accolades (like the Task Force Commander) requiring groups. I would have no problem with some bits of end game progression requiring groups.

I have a problem with the *entire* endgame revolving around large scale groups and the design of the game focused on that playstyle.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
The sweet spot is my personal preference; what I like most. The game has supported this preference very well in the past. The new endgame no longer supports it.

But then this post right here has more or less just said that you are complaining about the trials because they dont meet YOUR personal preference and not for the good of the game.

The reason people react so harshly to these types of threads is because it always make it seem that these raids are bad for the game when the truth of the matter is is that its just a "i dont like this new feature personally" thread.

Of course everybody has their own opinions on every single bit of the game and rightly so, but when a thread is started about it, they should make it more clear that its their own personal viewpoint of the game to them on a personal level.


@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!