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Arguably you can run any content to get that "next level". Any content in the game now when run by a level 50 who has their Alpha slot unlocked will drop Shards. Shards up-convert to Threads, which then can be used to get those "next levels". Now, I'm not saying it's an efficient method, but it's there.|
Originally Posted by damienray
Ok, I know, the horse is dead... but for those that want to discuss and not beat me to a pulp...
How exactly is a system that has some 50's bragging about running the BAF or LAMBDA trial 150+ times any better than 50's running random (emphasis on Random) missions to get to the next level ? I know the incarnate was supposed to be "New & Different"... but being locked into 2 (more coming) missions to get the next level is so... boring ? Ok, yes, I love this game. But I would have really loved to have had the option to do any content (sidekicked, exemped, etc) to reach the next level instead of being locked into only 2 missions to get that next level. Thanks for listening guys & gals. Love this game & community.  |
Also, those "next levels" only apply to the Incarnate Trials themselves and do not activate in normal game content. So, if you plan to never run the trials, those "next levels" are meaningless to you.
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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For what it's worth the Devs have said they are planning to give us more Incarnate trials on a very regular basis, like a new one every Issue type basis. Don't be blinded by the idea of "only" having two to do right now - the Devs have always planned for much more content in this area.|
Originally Posted by damienray
Ok, I know, the horse is dead... but for those that want to discuss and not beat me to a pulp...
How exactly is a system that has some 50's bragging about running the BAF or LAMBDA trial 150+ times any better than 50's running random (emphasis on Random) missions to get to the next level ? I know the incarnate was supposed to be "New & Different"... but being locked into 2 (more coming) missions to get the next level is so... boring ? Ok, yes, I love this game. But I would have really loved to have had the option to do any content (sidekicked, exemped, etc) to reach the next level instead of being locked into only 2 missions to get that next level. Thanks for listening guys & gals. Love this game & community. |
Also it ought to be amazingly obvious to everyone how much of the game would have to be reworked to actually allow for a "general level cap" increase. For starters all of the critters, powers and enhancements would have to scaled up to account for levels beyond 54. At this point it'd probably be easier for our Devs to give us CoH2 than it would be to re-engineer this game for a level cap increase.
Besides the whole idea of an "increase in a level number equating to more content to do" is a completely old-fashioned way for MMOs to operate anyway. I'm actually glad the Devs of this game came up with an alternative to that tired old trick games have been using for decades.
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There will always be people who run the highest level stuff hundreds of times and complain that they're bored with it.
There were people who were complaining about hamidon runs when THAT was the only top level content. (There were people complaining about running their daily tip missions last month.)
There are also people like me who have run the two trials zero times each and feel that they're having a pretty good time with the game.
(OK, some of that is indolence, some of that is the feeling that the reward system is still in extremely open beta...)
Edited to add: level "50+shift" means your stuff doesn't go obsolete on you.
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It's simple: if they used standard XP-based progression for levels above 50, they'd have to add a a HUGE new co-op zone (though I'd prefer two, one blue and one red) and a megacrapton of new arcs (probably 5x or more than what was in Going Rogue) to give enough XP as the requirement per level get higher and higher (or even just stops at 5 million XP per level, an even number that is just over what it takes to get from 49-50). A couple of trials here and there and the occasional new lower-level zone (ie, what they're doing here) combined with the nonstandard progression at L50 is FAR easier.
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Originally Posted by damienray
Ok, I know, the horse is dead... but for those that want to discuss and not beat me to a pulp...
How exactly is a system that has some 50's bragging about running the BAF or LAMBDA trial 150+ times any better than 50's running random (emphasis on Random) missions to get to the next level ? |
Because it would invalidate all the existing level 50 content as end-game content and leave us with only the new stuff to do at max level. It would also require new PvP zones, new IOs, and not make any sense or require a retcon for all the stuff that's supposed to be the finale at max level. It's kind of like how you've probably never heard of Titan-Origin enhancements. Or if you have, you know how useless they are.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Which isn't really true. The "Incarnate Shift" is useless outside the trials. The Incarnate Powers themselves are quite powerful, and usable anywhere unless you've also been exemplared down as well.
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Originally Posted by flipside
Also, those "next levels" only apply to the Incarnate Trials themselves and do not activate in normal game content. So, if you plan to never run the trials, those "next levels" are meaningless to you.
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Thanks for the feedback and points-of-view. Always good to hear other thoughts. Helps take that rut feeling away. Off to BAF !
**Damien**
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss.
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. "
What's funny to me is that players voluntarily gated content down to PL for years. Now the Devs have essentially given us a path for expedited rewards and gated the content down to two single missions. Yes there is an alternate path, but who is masochistic enough to upconvert shards to open J/I/L/D slots and buy C/U/R/VR components for J/I/L/D slots at the penalized conversion rate? If such players exist, I pray for their sanity.
I suppose there were players that complained then about player-initiated gated content, and players that complain now about developer-initiated gated content.
Rather than discouraging the idea of repetitive farming of single missions, the Devs enshrined it for incarnates. So now you can get your AE/PL baby to 50 by farming a single mission and then get your first 5 incarnate slots in a couple more mission farms.
I do hope this was done primarily for the purpose of extensive data mining rather than lack of resources to create trials.
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Splitting hairs here, bit it's absolutely true in the context of the OP's post and my response to it. They are speaking in context of the incarnate shifts that apply only to the incarnate trials. They never mentioned the incarnate powers themselves, Alpha or otherwise, just the levels.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Which isn't really true. The "Incarnate Shift" is useless outside the trials. The Incarnate Powers themselves are quite powerful, and usable anywhere unless you've also been exemplared down as well.
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Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
There are other ways to get threads and advance. As someone already explained any content now will drop shards.. even joining a Sewer team in Atlas Park I suppose (I have no desire to test that to find out 
). The thing is those ways are rather expensive since converting 10 shards to 10 threads cost 2.5 Million in influence and can onl;y be accomplished once a day. After that you can spend as much as you like converting 10 shards into 5 thread for the same 2.5 mil.
Keep in mind that a common component costs 20 thread and you need 3 to create a tier one enhancement so you'd need 110 shards and 27.5 million in influence to create 1 common enhancer for one power. You can also use threads to BUY incarnate experience rather than running the trials but I am not sure exactly what the exchange rate is on that. Well I know its 1 thread for X amount of IXP but I have no clue how many threads you'd need to go from 0% on a power to 100%. It is possible but would take a lot longer to accomplish that just running the trials and would cost a considerable amount of influence.
Now there is another trial, Anti-Matter's, going into closed Beta this month and supposedly will be release to play prior to issue 21. So we may have only 2 now but there are more on the way. I agree it does get very repeatative doing those same two trials again and again but fortunately most of my incarnates have $$ so I have combined running trials with converting threads and even bought some IXP on a couple to get them to having all 4 powers open and to at least tier 3.
Hey do what I do.. TAKE a BREAK. I have spent the past week working on lower level characters so the trials aren't the only thing I see. It will get better as we get more options. 
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
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This perspective seems a little out of context. While there is certainly a lot of data mining that can and will be done as a result of the two existing trials, the notion that limited content has been 'enshrined' as a playstyle choice doesn't seem warranted. Incarnate abilities are unnecessary for any of the existing content of the game (just as powerleveling was never necessary for any of it), but inventing a new system that meets the dual goals of making players feel much more powerful while not breaking all of the existing systems would seem to require unique challenges. We've seen the first two and the extra resources that are available for development are, no doubt, developing more.|
Originally Posted by makerian
What's funny to me is that players voluntarily gated content down to PL for years. Now the Devs have essentially given us a path for expedited rewards and gated the content down to two single missions. Yes there is an alternate path, but who is masochistic enough to upconvert shards to open J/I/L/D slots and buy C/U/R/VR components for J/I/L/D slots at the penalized conversion rate? If such players exist, I pray for their sanity.
I suppose there were players that complained then about player-initiated gated content, and players that complain now about developer-initiated gated content. Rather than discouraging the idea of repetitive farming of single missions, the Devs enshrined it for incarnates. So now you can get your AE/PL baby to 50 by farming a single mission and then get your first 5 incarnate slots in a couple more mission farms. I do hope this was done primarily for the purpose of extensive data mining rather than lack of resources to create trials. |
It's certainly possible to play this (or nearly any game) in a degenerate fashion, but I think there's plenty of opportunity for high level play that doesn't involve reducing the game to a single set of goals. Much like powerleveling, I would imagine that the developer's attitude toward this kind of play is one of tolerance. The incarnate content seems to be remarkably well contained at this point and, while the rewards are gated, most of the content itself isn't, apart from the requirement of owning the latest expansion. As long as this remains the case, I don't feel that my lvl 50 play is being forced in any particular direction.
I think it's worth noting that, while I can recall many players in the past claiming that the game was too easy, a level 50 character with all of their Incarnate abilities maxed would seem to remove any challenge from any piece of solo content, short of player-created challenges made for exactly this purpose. If anything, encouraging players to quickly reach the highest levels of Incarnate power is exactly the opposite of what developers would want.
Well to be fair, I said "The Devs enshrined it for incarnates" Of course, no one is requiring anyone to become an incarnate. Not only have I deleted most of my characters, only 3 of the remaining 6 have more than alpha unlocked. I feel no compulsion to incarnate the other 3, and don't feel forced at all in that regard by the Devs.
However, if I do want to get J/I/L/D slots unlocked, I can either go with the herd and farm the same two trials ad nauseum or not.
I do know they are working on 1 imminent and then several more upcoming trials. They had a great system with Shard TFs (and added Apex and TM too), it's a shame they narrowed down the playing fields for those on the incarnate path by excluding them from the thread rewards and reward tables.
If someone's a soloist, I feel their pain. The iTrial method has been good to me. In under 150 Trials, I've made dozens of T3/T4s on my 3 incarnates, and at least all T3s in each slot for each of my incarnates. I've converted Astrals and Empyreans with abandon and get good drops overall. Any non iTrial would be, for me, agonizing and lonely, like saving up 2 billion inf for a single enhancement by just soloing the game instead of marketeering or farming in groups.
I'm not hating the gated content, I do think it is funny. Thousands of missions available, and the hundreds of people that I see are only doing 2 of them.
Hint: add Incarnate difficulty options to old content (and penalize non-incarnates in those teams similar to ATF/TMTF) as opposed to adding new levels and in lieu of rushing out new trials.
I pretty much took it that the incarnate content was a way of turning a player created character, into a signature hero, or signature villain depending on ones stance.
Probably will happen, once your character is then at that signature level, you are then complete. Go back, do another.
(Im hoping to get me first lvl 50 tonight.)
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Just have to ask, are you being deliberately obtuse or are you truly that ignorant?|
Originally Posted by makerian
Rather than discouraging the idea of repetitive farming of single missions, the Devs enshrined it for incarnates. So now you can get your AE/PL baby to 50 by farming a single mission and then get your first 5 incarnate slots in a couple more mission farms.
I do hope this was done primarily for the purpose of extensive data mining rather than lack of resources to create trials. |
What will be in issue 21? More incarnate content. Issue 22? More incarnate content. Issue 23? More incarnate content. Issue 24? Say it with me: More incarnate content. 25? All but guaranteed to be more incarnate content. 26? Yup, you guessed it, more incarnate content.
Because we have 2 trials now, what could possibly make you think that is all we will ever have? or that the Devs want people to only run those two missions?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Because more levels would completely invalidate the current level 50 content. | Why not just more levels? |
Hami-Os would wear out after level 53. They'd have to come up with new enemy groups, new zones, new mission arcs, new content of every type.
And with the way players burn through content, the devs would be forced to do that all over again every few months to keep up with the demand for more stuff to do.
WoW, and other games, have trapped themselves in a cycle where the only way they can add new stuff is to increase the level cap along with it. And if you've ever tried to do anything not at the level cap in those other games, well, you know how that's working out for them.
Keeping the cap at 50 means they can add content all the time and they don't have to keep adding places to go along with it. They CAN add places to go, but it isn't a necessity.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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34 threads is roughly the answer. Each spend gives you 3% of the iXP needed. You also need 2.5 million per go (2.5 million seems to be popular). So 34 Threads and 85 million inf will give you 100% iXP for opening something (might be 33 and 82.5 million inf in fact if it's actually 3.3333% a go)|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
You can also use threads to BUY incarnate experience rather than running the trials but I am not sure exactly what the exchange rate is on that. Well I know its 1 thread for X amount of IXP but I have no clue how many threads you'd need to go from 0% on a power to 100%. It is possible but would take a lot longer to accomplish that just running the trials and would cost a considerable amount of influence.
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I did it with the Interface slot because I've never managed to get onto a Lambda team, ever or see one forming. It always seems to be BAFs running.
Seems like loads (and it kinda is) but I sold the proceeds of a-merit random rolls to earn it fairly quickly with my Fort/Night Widow.
Level cap increases are nothing more than band-aids that only slightly delay the supposed "end game boredom" problem.
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Let's see...
People would whine about having to rekit their entire set up, respec to pull out the IOs they want, new powers would be blah blah complain blah blah... whine whine whine.
You think we've got a sadfest now with this system, which is fairly harmless and optional. Imagine 10 new levels? NOT optional. People HAVE to hit cap. It's human nature. At least the incarnate system is reasonably self contained, and the bleed over of incarnate powers into high end stuff is limited to level 50 content. It is. Don't say no. It is.
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Nothing makes me think that there will only be two. I assume you think I believe that because I did not add a disclaimer to my post to the effect of "I know there is at least one trial in the next several months, and likely to be several more in the next several years." See my other post in this thread that preceded yours for a similar disclaimer. If I did add disclaimers anticipating people putting words in my mouth, then every post I made would have to be longer than this one. So, sometimes, silence can be misconstrued, and I apologize that you inferred I was ignorant or obtuse because I did not include some magic words that would give you insight into my worldview.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Just have to ask, are you being deliberately obtuse or are you truly that ignorant?
... Because we have 2 trials now, what could possibly make you think that is all we will ever have? or that the Devs want people to only run those two missions? |
As for why do I think the developers only want us to do those two iTrials? I do think that and that could be because they introduced Alpha shard iSalvage, retrofitted a bunch of TFs to include shard iSalvage, added two new Trials in RWZ that gave shard iSalvage, created WSTs that give NotWs for shard iSalvage, and then released four more levels of incarnates that did not directly use that iSalvage and created a whole new slop of thread iSalvage that really is completely interchangeable. With reward tables, there's almost no reason (except for the few random drops for badge rewards per character) to have different C/U/R/VR iSalvage except to penalize someone's shortsightedness.
So, I assume the Devs intended to dog whistle to the community that shard iSalvage should be disregarded in favor of thread iSalvage. IF you want to be an incarnate, the reward ratio is so out of sync that there is no other sane method for quickly becoming a 53 Incarnate with T3/4s than doing iTrials to unlock and fill J/I/L/D slots. If there's a faster method, please let me know. And you might wanna let the community know too.
And maybe hundreds of players on multiple servers are wrong. But within days, coop zones like RWZ and PD have been flooded with players hanging around, doing iTrials. Maybe the Devs were completely surprised that players were smart enough not to penalize themselves by earning shard iSalvage and converting and instead chose the path of least resistance and have been farming 2 iTrials over and over for weeks now. Thanks to such farming, my 3 incarnates have multiple T3/4s for every slot. Between my 3 characters, I need less than 600 pieces of thread iSalvage to make 20 T4s each on all 3 characters. That's pretty efficient and I think I'm not the only one that realized this is a gift horse.
I'm a loyal and long time paying customer. I get they need to datamine, I get they needed to add new content. It's just funny that even Apex and Tin Mage weren't included in that design for iTrials, and neither were all the alpha component TFs. If I were going to wait 7 years to release incarnates, I would try to prep the field with more content at least. The 'long anticipated endgame', turns out to be 2 missions for 3 months, then 1-2 more missions for 3 months, etc. If you don't find that funny, well we can agree to disagree about what we find funny in the world.
Once the new missions do come out, finding a BAF or LAM will happen, but I suspect it will be less often, particularly if they open up a whole new slop of iSalvage for the next 4 levels, and maybe even another slop for the last 1 level. But more importantly, I imagine it will happen less often because people will have become numb to running them and eagerly ready to farm new content over and over.
I do know from hearsay that there are still people who do other content in the game. I've in fact even run some WSTs in the past month and done some tips, helped a few people out of tight missions, and earned a few badges outside of iTrials.
PS, It's probably all the strobe lights in PD getting to me. I've taken to sipping brews with the felines on the redside when I'm forming iTrials to avoid epileptic fits.
This is also becoming a thread derail, as it is more off topic than my original post, which did try to address the OP. If you want to discuss it with me, send me a PM. Thanks.
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Just look at other games that have done it. People constantly **** every time about the gear they worked so hard on now being "useless". And the previous end game content being rendered irrelevant, though there's less of a danger of that with CoH.
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Originally Posted by DanZero
Let's see...
People would whine about having to rekit their entire set up, respec to pull out the IOs they want, new powers would be blah blah complain blah blah... whine whine whine. You think we've got a sadfest now with this system, which is fairly harmless and optional. Imagine 10 new levels? NOT optional. People HAVE to hit cap. It's human nature. At least the incarnate system is reasonably self contained, and the bleed over of incarnate powers into high end stuff is limited to level 50 content. It is. Don't say no. It is. |
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Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Indeed. Shiny becomes dull when ultra shiny shows up.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
Just look at other games that have done it. People constantly **** every time about the gear they worked so hard on now being "useless". And the previous end game content being rendered irrelevant, though there's less of a danger of that with CoH.
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Incarnate XP|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
34 threads is roughly the answer. Each spend gives you 3% of the iXP needed. You also need 2.5 million per go (2.5 million seems to be popular). So 34 Threads and 85 million inf will give you 100% iXP for opening something (might be 33 and 82.5 million inf in fact if it's actually 3.3333% a go)
I did it with the Interface slot because I've never managed to get onto a Lambda team, ever or see one forming. It always seems to be BAFs running. Seems like loads (and it kinda is) but I sold the proceeds of a-merit random rolls to earn it fairly quickly with my Fort/Night Widow. |
Theres been some curiosity about the amount of Incarnate XP required to unlock each slot. To help sate that curiosity, here are the actual amounts of XP required to unlock each slot:
Converting threads is 50,000 iXP per thread if I recall correctly.
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I believe posi said that new iTrials will be coming out independent of issues (keyes is coming out before i21 |
Originally Posted by Lothic
For what it's worth the Devs have said they are planning to give us more Incarnate trials on a very regular basis, like a new one every Issue type basis. Don't be blinded by the idea of "only" having two to do right now - the Devs have always planned for much more content in this area.
Besides the whole idea of an "increase in a level number equating to more content to do" is a completely old-fashioned way for MMOs to operate anyway. I'm actually glad the Devs of this game came up with an alternative to that tired old trick games have been using for decades. |
), kind of like i19.5, whether that means they will be coming out more or less often than issues i dont know.I have to agree, Im very glad they didnt just add a few lvls. Thats not really end game content, it just makes it take more time to get to the end. This way we are gradually given more and more content and there is always something to look forward too, even after omega. Thus keeping the "end game" rolling
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Let me say this first. I really hate the rewards system in the new trials. I think someone mentioned above they are not running the trials since they feel it is in open beta. Having said that....
The Devs need to be thanked and congratulated. With a rock solid top of 50 for inventions, all of us addicted to character modification are breathing a huge sigh of relief. What would it mean if carefully designed optimized characters went to 2nd string status overnight? Instead, the Devs allow us (with a buttload of work and a kick if you complain about it) to enhance those 50s even further. Better yet, it ain't transferable, marketable, tradeable, or even e-mailable. (although I think they should consider allowing transfers between your own toons)
If you meet a 50 with 5 tier 4s, (or later a 50 with 9 tier 4s) you can guarantee its not an AE baby. Although the player may still suck, the plain truth is they have run that toon thru the stuff for awhile.
So, in short. I hate the Devs current reward system. I love the Devs idea for alllowing character +great stuff at 50. It makes sense they did not rewrite all their worlds end of game storylines. They expanded the game sideways thru Ouroboros logic. Yeah for them.
Now, give me more, and make my rewards transferrable back unto myself for when I black hole a toon. When I take what was one of my top 3 toons and decide to transfer for another character, they are left shatterred. 10 respecs or so to strip all the enhancers. There is nothing left. Pls allow me to get some of the shards/threads/powers off them as well. If nothing else a shard/thread/component self e-mail feature would at least encourage running more characters. After all, if I run a 50 but never plan to Incarnate them much, any special rewards I get can go to my new concept character. this will forestall toon burnout, and encourage diversity.
Ok, I know, the horse is dead... but for those that want to discuss and not beat me to a pulp...
How exactly is a system that has some 50's bragging about running the BAF or LAMBDA trial 150+ times any better than 50's running random (emphasis on Random) missions to get to the next level ?
I know the incarnate was supposed to be "New & Different"... but being locked into 2 (more coming) missions to get the next level is so... boring ?
Ok, yes, I love this game. But I would have really loved to have had the option to do any content (sidekicked, exemped, etc) to reach the next level instead of being locked into only 2 missions to get that next level.
Thanks for listening guys & gals. Love this game & community.
**Damien**
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss.
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. "