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Not being in agrement with you does not mean nothing should ever change. |
Originally Posted by Cold_X
I'm not going to burrow through a crap ton of YOUR posts to again read YOUR opinion, which was based on YOU thinking that you don't need to buff all the time. Unless you are playing at +4 against every enemy group without anyone dying or being slowed down, then no one has room to talk.
It's more efficient. There has not been a single valid reason why the ideas I posted couldn't be implemented. |
Just because something could be implemented does not mean it should. The community is not who you need to convince. The devs are the ones that get to make the change. Your idea has been out there in one form or another for years and nothing has changed. I'm guessing the devs feel that there is balance in the way things are currently set up.
As for the OP's suggestion, meh. That's what the incarnate buffs are for, to give you wide scale buffing while your regular buffs are for spot buffing those in the line of fire (specifically the ones you're 'babysitting'). No one's expecting you to look after an entire army so don't try to.
And buffing your MM pets? Why? They're just gonna die and you'll have to resummon them. Save the buffs for the non-expendables.
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Only time I waste time buffing MM pets is when I'm soloing.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And buffing your MM pets? Why? They're just gonna die and you'll have to resummon them. Save the buffs for the non-expendables.
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This is something I wanted to say originally. While a Mastermind's support set may "feel" like it's designed to help the Mastermind, himself, that's still a support set which should be used on team-mates first and foremost. A Mastermind's role on a team, as it were, is as much support for the team as pets. As such, if a Mastermind can't manage to buff both his pets and his team-mates, then his team-mates come first and they should be trusted to provide support for the pets by drawing aggro and killing things, at the very least.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Only time I waste time buffing MM pets is when I'm soloing.
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On the larger question of returning Mastermind henchman upgrades to what they used to, there's more to this question than simple convenience. For one, upgrading now costs significantly less. You have two upgrades, each 45 points of endurance in cost, whereas before you used to have one upgrade which cost 10, I believe, and one which cost 20. On six henchmen, that's 180 points of endurance or thereabout.
Additionally, the AoE buffs did not just expedite buffing at the start of a mission, especially not now that henchmen will zone with you. It also expedited re-summoning in combat. When your henchmen fell in combat before, you could re-summon them quickly, but re-upgrading them took a LOT of time, which a battle bad enough to wipe them in the first place would rarely afford you. Now it's quick and easy, just cycle both upgrades and be done with it. Even the slowness of the second upgrade is no longer an issue, since only the henchman you target is slowed down, while the others are upgraded and free to act.
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More to point, almost all single-target buffs come in pairs and constitute a 2 second activation time. In general, buffing an entire team of 7 takes 7*2*2, or ~28 seconds. Call it 30 seconds, since I think they're slightly longer than 2s. That really is a lot of buffing, but on a five minute timer, that still constitutes only 10% of your time, and considering that a lot of those sets don't really have much else to do in an active fashion, that's a small price to pay. Hell, just Hurl Boulder by itself constitutes 23% of your time if you use it as soon as it recharges, and that's with no recharge bonuses.
On the flip side, buffing seven people twice with buffs that cost around 8 points of endurance is quite a significant investment, and one not really very balanceable via AoE, for the simple fact that 7*8*2 = 112 points of endurance. Making a buff power which consumes your entire endurance bar and gives you no option to be selective about it is not going to happen. Even Dark Regeneration doesn't cost this much. It used to cost 45 points of endurance, but now costs only around 30.
There's also a problem of making cost dependent on people affected. Even if the system could be made to distinguish between people buffed and people not, you still have to code the cost as a proc which taxes you for every person affected, similar to how Repulsion Field is coded. The problem with that is it is impossible to slot such a proc for endurance. Endurance enhancements only affect a power's factual cost. The procs themselves don't have a cost associated with them, they constitute endurance drain effects which are not affected by endurance reduction enhancements. The most they could be affected by is endurance modification enhancements, but those would actually increase the drain, not decrease it.
The only way single-target buffs can be transformed into AoE buffs is via a large-scale redesign, and I highly doubt this will come out very favourable to the power. Mastermind upgrades came out reasonably favourable when they were changed, as they became vastly superior powers, but I'd consider this an exception, not a precedent. Support sets simply don't require a buff as significant as what Masterminds got, so any change to a power that turns it from a single-target to an AoE will burn the power in some what somewhere.
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All of that said - yes, I very much do find buffing annoying.
*edit*
All of my numbers are drawn from memory. If any of them are wrong, it's probably because I remember them wrong.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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On a team, when playing a MM, you have up to 7 new pets to buff but you cannot resummon them if they die so it is best to buff/heal/shield/bubble them instead of your disposable pets. Personally never had an issue even putting bubbles on a full team. I reapply buffs before they run out while people are moving from one spawn to another. I personally would rather keep things the way they are. Too much unknown out there on what would be taken away if extra is given.
Very interesting read there Sam, kudos...
I have never seen MM's play support first to the team, but rather offense first, then help if needed. Of the 3 MM's I have, only one would be considered supportish (/PD vs. /storm & /dark). My pets come first and I just feel that an MM without pets is not an MM. On a side note, I have a large number of buffing toons too and support the team, but never the MM pets since that is the MM's job. Interesting to see the differences.
As for the whole MM buffing, I love the current system and despised the old single target version. Like I said before, you don't need constant buffing and if you lose a pet in battle, I just resummon and wait for a window to buff as needed.
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This has been sort of a hot-button topic a few times, and I agree that Masterminds shouldn't play support first or exclusively. However, I firmly believe that if the Mastermind should be babying anyone, it should be his team-mates, not his henchmen. The Henchmen are mindless AI constructs which are expendable, to boot. The other players are far more important. If you can manage to buff both your players AND your pets, then kudos to you, but if you have to choose and pick pets over players, expect to see quite a few frowns on your team.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
I have never seen MM's play support first to the team, but rather offense first, then help if needed. Of the 3 MM's I have, only one would be considered supportish (/PD vs. /storm & /dark). My pets come first and I just feel that an MM without pets is not an MM. On a side note, I have a large number of buffing toons too and support the team, but never the MM pets since that is the MM's job. Interesting to see the differences.
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There has been a long-held belief that villain ATs don't team well because they're designed to solo and because they teach their players to solo first before they learn how to team with those ATs. Masterminds and Stalkers are usually brought up as examples whenever this is brought up. Stalkers notwithstanding, it's commonly seen as a problem when a Mastermind plays on a team as he would play when solo, buffing only his pets and ignoring his team in favour of acting like a Blaster or a Scrapper. But unlike a Blaster or a Scrapper whose powers only affect themselves, a Mastermind's powers can affect team-mates, as well, and that comes with a certain level of responsibility.
More pragmatically, each one of your team-mates is worth far more than each one of your henchmen. If you had to choose one or the other to lose, always choose the henchman. It's what they're made for, after all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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AOE buffs for quick recharging powers would be nice. But for it to be added I'd also want them to add buff animation or buff properties suppression. So the player being buffed could choose in the option menu to suppress the animation or to suppress one of the effects from the buff such as +speed in speedboost if all they want is the recovery and recharge. Or auto decline for those that don't like buffs at all for whatever reason.
The most common reason why aoe buff threads are shot down is for the above lack of feature. I know I'd personally like to be able to suppress the animations of some powers, such as the Hades head fire from thermal radiation buffs and ice shields hiding most of my costume.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
/unsigned for every reason posted in every thread every time this comes up. Go read the reasons.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If I don't have a buff on you it's because you are blocked. I personally do not find rebuffing people all that annoying. then again I prefer buffing as a controller and not as a defender, corr or MM.
It's easier because as a Force Fielder I find that once I get my lockdowns on the enemy I have the time. Other AT's do not have those benefits and are reliant more on attacks.
However if running incarnates Ill do my best, but I cannot ensure everyone will be bubbled.
Personally though I do not find it a chore.
If i have a buff set i either do two things..get the buffs and buff or dont get the buffs and put it in my bio that i dont have the buff powers...Like Speed Boost..im never taking tht power, but its in my bio telling people i dont have it....if you get a buff power you buff..its like a healer not healing !
To be honest, by the time you're running on high-level teams, most people have solved their end, health and def/res issues and are pretty solid as they are. Even more so with the Alpha slots.
My typical mode of operation is to buff everyone on the team when running content lower than 45 since that's about the level you get your epic armor. For teams at 45+ I typically apply the buffs as I see needed based on teammates' status bars or if I know they are being super-sidekicked up from a lower level. If someone asks to be buffed, I'll make a concerted effort to keep them buffed throughout the mission. Seems to work okay for my FF, emp and kin 'support' toons.
Same thing with the PBAoE regen and recovery emp powers -- on higher level teams I'll just wait until the majority of the team is clumped together, get in there and fire them off. None of that gather for this, gather for that stuff'; then top off stragglers with heal other and adrenaline boost.
We don' need no stinkin' signatures!
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No. It's the opinion of a bunch of other people who also posted in those threads.|
Originally Posted by Cold_X
I'm not going to burrow through a crap ton of YOUR posts to again read YOUR opinion, which was based on YOU thinking that you don't need to buff all the time. Unless you are playing at +4 against every enemy group without anyone dying or being slowed down, then no one has room to talk.
It's more efficient. There has not been a single valid reason why the ideas I posted couldn't be implemented. |
As a Mastermind who got smacked with the 'easier' PbAoE Pet Buff 'improvement', my opinion is that any suggestions for AoE being implemented on other buffs can go die in the dark where it belongs. Being drained of endurance every two powers is not fun.
So, yes, you are touting your single opinion as some sort of divine 'right' and fact. I'd advise you stop.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't think there has to be a change to these shield buffs.
I also don't expect the shielding set users to buff an entire league (if they want to go for it), but yes I would expect this from one on the same team.
My suggestion, if they're on the team and not shielding the team, kick them or just don't invite them along the next time.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I really dislike this MM 'I buff only my pets mentality', up to the point where I'm tempted to kick MM's off my team if I see the team struggling and the MM failing to apply his buffs to the team. (I don't, but I'm tempted.) For example that one time on an ITF, when a demons/pain MM kept exclusively healing his pets while our tank kept being killed by Romulus and the huge swarm of roman ambushes, which in turn caused some squishies to go under. The only reason I didn't kick then, was because it wasn't a very strong team, and we needed his damage. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Very interesting read there Sam, kudos...
I have never seen MM's play support first to the team, but rather offense first, then help if needed. Of the 3 MM's I have, only one would be considered supportish (/PD vs. /storm & /dark). My pets come first and I just feel that an MM without pets is not an MM. On a side note, I have a large number of buffing toons too and support the team, but never the MM pets since that is the MM's job. Interesting to see the differences. |
If the team is sailing through I don't care what you do, but if the team is struggling a MM better switch his buffing priorities to the teammates otherwise he's only half as useful as he could be imo. It's the same as a corruptor or a controller completely neglecting his secondary while teaming.
Also, out of curiosity, how do consider /dark and /storm not support? It's basicly all they do. Maybe we just have different definitions of 'support'.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Well, please note TrueMetal I did say "then help if needed". In short, I view MM's more like scrapper than a supporter. I have offense and tools to protect me and my pets. If a scrapper could lose their attacks like a MM loses pets, then just what are they doing for the team?
However, the MM has the bonus of helping others in a pinch. Also note that I said that I have a large number of support toons; they are my favorites to play. So I very keen on support toons and what they offer teams. If a team is struggling, I am capable of helping with my MM's. It is a style as I see it like a blapper, or tank without taunt, or a widow with the leadership pool. Different.
And you are right, we see it differently is all. My thunder storm or tornado are things I don't consider the same kind of support as AB or CM on my emp def.
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I don't know about /storm, but /dark doesn't really have any team buffs at all. You throw down tar patches, hit the biggest target with a toggled debuff, shoot off some Fearsome Stare, maybe some Tentacles, and pull out your Dark Servant. All you can do to directly help anyone is heal, and that's only if they're within it's radius if it hits.| Also, out of curiosity, how do consider /dark and /storm not support? It's basicly all they do. Maybe we just have different definitions of 'support'. |
I use those things on my Ninja/Dark to help me first, and by extension everyone else. They get to ride the wave. Support should be concerned with keeping themselves alive as much as their teammates, especially if they're the only ones that can rez people. What good is a face-planted buffer/debuffer?
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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/Storm has 4 attacks, 1 heal, 1 team stealth, 1 Disorient, 1 Repel/KB, and 1 -Spd/Fly.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
I don't know about /storm, but /dark doesn't really have any team buffs at all. You throw down tar patches, hit the biggest target with a toggled debuff, shoot off some Fearsome Stare, maybe some Tentacles, and pull out your Dark Servant. All you can do to directly help anyone is heal, and that's only if they're within it's radius if it hits.
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I don't get the endurance issue. Why would the devs change it to prohibitive endurance costs? Fireball can hit 16 ppl, but it's not like it costs 16x as much endurance as Fireblast. It's like you're afraid of change, that you don't trust the devs. I've watched their latest video stream during the global maintenance, the devs are smart and they know what they're doing, and whether you agree with all they've done in the past or not they've at least proven to be competent. They wouldn't just screw us over saying something like "You want this? YOU WANT THIS???? FINE!!! BUT YOU GET THAT AS WELL!!"
My guess is that if fast-recharging single buffs were changed into PBAoEs they'd be similar to Accelerated Metabolism or World of Pain, which wouldn't be a problem at all. It would screw over dedicated buffers who only like to pick their first tier attack, however, since they'd suddenly be expected to contribute to team damage as well. I wonder if that's the real problem with this change.
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The point is that the Devs have, several times before, told us that if the buffs got changed to PBAoEs, they would have increased end costs or recharges, or would have their effects greatly weakened.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I don't get the endurance issue. Why would the devs change it to prohibitive endurance costs? Fireball can hit 16 ppl, but it's not like it costs 16x as much endurance as Fireblast. It's like you're afraid of change, that you don't trust the devs. I've watched their latest video stream during the global maintenance, the devs are smart and they know what they're doing, and whether you agree with all they've done in the past or not they've at least proven to be competent. They wouldn't just screw us over saying something like "You want this? YOU WANT THIS???? FINE!!! BUT YOU GET THAT AS WELL!!"
My guess is that if fast-recharging single buffs were changed into PBAoEs they'd be similar to Accelerated Metabolism or World of Pain, which wouldn't be a problem at all. It would screw over dedicated buffers who only like to pick their first tier attack, however, since they'd suddenly be expected to contribute to team damage as well. I wonder if that's the real problem with this change. |
While I don't think they'd make the bubbles cost 8x as much, I think that 4x as much is a good estimate, meaning that without slotting, you'd be drained of endurance every time you wanted to bubble your team.
They're also the fact that these bubbles are as strong as they are because the bubbler can't use them on himself. Add that into the mix possibly (the Devs can code it so that they don't affect the bubbler, I think, but you know people would complain then, too), and the effects would probably get even weaker.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I'd leave it to the devs to go case by case scenario as to where exactly they want the buffs to apply to the caster or not. In any event, I'd still be satisfied if none of them buffed the caster, as my main point in supporting this suggestion is not buffing defenders/corruptors but instead:|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
They're also the fact that these bubbles are as strong as they are because the bubbler can't use them on himself. Add that into the mix possibly (the Devs can code it so that they don't affect the bubbler, I think, but you know people would complain then, too), and the effects would probably get even weaker.
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a) Making buffing less stressful for me when I play defenders/corruptors, so I can focus on doing other things than refreshing bubbles, SBs and CMs,
b) Making buffing less stressful for others when they play defenders/corruptors, so I actually get buffed when I play on teams,
c) Making more ppl want to roll defenders/corruptors, so I don't feel like I'm playing City of Brutes.
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Well, it might make it less stressful on you, but more so on others. For instance, not everyone on the team needs the shields. The support characters who are attracting zero percent of the aggro? Why do they need shields? If they're taking zero damage now, shielding them wouldn't make them take less damage. However, the Tanker who is getting pounded on? Sure, shield him.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I'd leave it to the devs to go case by case scenario as to where exactly they want the buffs to apply to the caster or not. In any event, I'd still be satisfied if none of them buffed the caster, as my main point in supporting this suggestion is not buffing defenders/corruptors but instead:
a) Making buffing less stressful for me when I play defenders/corruptors, so I can focus on doing other things than refreshing bubbles, SBs and CMs, b) Making buffing less stressful for others when they play defenders/corruptors, so I actually get buffed when I play on teams, c) Making more ppl want to roll defenders/corruptors, so I don't feel like I'm playing City of Brutes. |
However, if the power was changed, then you'd have to shield all-or-none (or at least, whoever was in range), and would be charged endurance to match the possibility that it would be all. Or the recharge would be increased such that you'd have to account for recharge slotting in the powers so that they could be up permanently.
All you'd really be doing is changing strategic buffing for non-strategic buffing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it'd be less stressful on everyone. Some people hate the "gather for AM"-type buffs, and they have sets that allow them to avoid that.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Well said Aett. I would be one of those more stressed out by changes to the buffs mentioned. I love my support toons - they are my favorite to play. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, it might make it less stressful on you, but more so on others. For instance, not everyone on the team needs the shields. The support characters who are attracting zero percent of the aggro? Why do they need shields? If they're taking zero damage now, shielding them wouldn't make them take less damage. However, the Tanker who is getting pounded on? Sure, shield him.
However, if the power was changed, then you'd have to shield all-or-none (or at least, whoever was in range), and would be charged endurance to match the possibility that it would be all. Or the recharge would be increased such that you'd have to account for recharge slotting in the powers so that they could be up permanently. All you'd really be doing is changing strategic buffing for non-strategic buffing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it'd be less stressful on everyone. Some people hate the "gather for AM"-type buffs, and they have sets that allow them to avoid that. |
And I agree that not every player needs to be buffed all the time. It is not hard to figure out who needs a buff and who doesn't. I would hate to see my buffs nerfed or end usage greatly increased because players are being lazy in learning strategic buffing.
And to that third point mentioned above:
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| Making more ppl want to roll defenders/corruptors, so I don't feel like I'm playing City of Brutes. |
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It's obviously anecdotal, and no, I wouldn't like to back it up with real numbers. I'm not a professional NCSoft dataminer nor do I work for you.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
And would you like to back up with real numbers here on "City of Brutes"? Or are you just exaggerating since that is not my experience with this game.
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I do have the general impression that whenever I PuG the number of Brutes/Scrappers is disproportionate to everything else, making my playing experience less desirable than it could be if there were more defenders/corruptors in the team. I myself seem to stray away from buffers for the reasons mentioned by the original poster, i.e., stressful mechanics rather than dislike for the actual graphics, concept or playstyle. I like healing, it's a reactive buff. I just don't like prehemptive short duration buffing unless it's something that can be done half-minded with a single click. Like mystic fortune, it lasts 20 minutes, cool.
Now, to each his own, you say. Ok. But I still want to see more buffers in the game. So what would it take to make me want to play a buffer? The answer to that is the first post in this threat. IMHO.
But for those who are so opposed to group buffing what do you think about returning to the old form of MMs where each one had to be upgraded individually? After all there is no reason for the group upgrading other than laziness on the part of the MMs. They can selectively upgrade or do it on the fly right?
Buffers do not have that issue. They're ready to go instantly, like everyone else.
You're comparing apples and roofing tile.