Multi-group content is not the way.

...

For two issues? (one of which came with a pretty honking big early-game update too)

Of what, twenty?

Abandon? Hardly. Positron and his small group are the only ones working on the Incarnate stuff.

We've been getting arcs at lower levels, TF/SFs, and all kinds of QoL fixes that have nothing to do with Incarnates. Just because you don't like it doesn't make that stuff imaginary.

Stop listening to all the Dooom-criers that paint the future as Incarnate-only. No red name has ever said that would be the case, and they never will.

To be fair, its six runs each of two different trials. And "the most basic set of boosts" in the Incarnate system are not trivial. Its not like the difference between SOs and purple sets. Its more like the difference between set IOs and purple sets.

Even six runs each might be too much for you, but I didn't say 12 runs would be acceptable to everyone. I said it wasn't a large number of runs to expect players to run to unlock all four slots *and* slot common powers in all four slots. Its only 50% higher than the absolute minimal floor of eight runs to perform the eight tasks of unlocking four slots and slotting four common powers. Below that level would be objectively degenerate game design, which is another way of saying objectively stupid without margin for subjective interpretation. 50% higher than the level of effort which would make the devs provably idiots is about as low as you can comfortably go as a game designer.


Alpha was intended to be a bridge to the new end game, which is why you can make progress in it with any level 50 content. But the new end game was going to be different than all the other level 50 content. If all the devs wanted to do was to make more rewards for players to earn while playing *any* of the end game content, there would be no need for a new end game system. The moment the devs said they were working on a new end game system, the one thing that everyone was supposed to be absolutely certain of was that it wasn't going to be indistinguishable from the current level 50 content, which is not really an end game system so much as it is the highest level standard content that happens to exist.

Understand this: if you don't like or want an end game system, that's a personal preference choice, and that's fine. But if you are saying you wouldn't mind the end game system if it would allow you to play the standard level 50 content and still make the same progress, you're actually asking for something that is contradictory on a fundamental design level with the notion of actually adding a distinct end game system. The end game system you want, we already had, and still have, which was just more of the same. The current end game system is for players who wanted more than just more of the same.

Indeed. That is my biggest joy and likely my biggest gripe. I definitely was hoping for something that was not just more of the same and I think the trials have delivered. I am very pleased with them. However, I did not want all of the Incarnate based progression to be tied solely (or almost solely, if we account for shard conversion) to the new trials.

I understand that the system is just that. Incarnate abilities, incarnate salvage, and incarnate trials are linked in the devs design guide. I think they need to unlink them (or more appropriately link more into the system). While I totally agree that in the short term (4 to 6 weeks from I20 launch) they are likely best to remain linked, I think that quickly they need to bring online an implementation for linking some of the older content into the system

If they could create content faster, I would not mind having new advancement totally in the realm of new content. Since they cannot, I would like them to not abandon the variety of content they have. I am pretty hardcore. The new trials have pleased me greatly, while in the past I have been turned off of all the big team content (CoP, Hami, and Rikti MSR are all unappealing to me). I am surprised at how well I enjoy playing this content as often as I have been playing it (I usually get bored much faster than this). All of that says to me the new trials are full of win (the variety of tasks within each trial is likely what works for me personally).

Still, I know I will soon grow weary. But I will regret that weariness because I will be lacking reasonable methods of advancement anywhere else. I want to run the trials. I also want to run other high end content and get something Incarnatey for it. I truly hope it can happen and happen sooner, rather than later.

Are you saying that we're likely to just get more of the same in the future - more choreographed multi-team trials, repeated a dozen or more times to unlock and slot new boosts? Is this sort of thing all I can expect from the future Incarnate content?

The Incarnate system is Trial-based - it's co-op multi-team content.

I have no doubt there will also be some Incarnate-only TF's as well. But other than that, yeah that's pretty much what I personally expect from it.

True. It hurts even more since many people have a backlog of level 50's that they now feel compelled to get back to "the cap." Had this been available with Issue 1, people would have played that one character all the way to the last of the incarnate stuff, then started another... feeling a lot less grindy than looping through a half dozen level 50's.

EDIT: I'm not feeling the grind myself, but I'm not going hog-wild on my endgame play, either. I'm comfortable with dawdling around, playing my lower level characters and dabbling with the trials when it suits me. So far, only 1 of my characters has any of the stuff unlocked, and she has three entry-tier and one 'incarnate shift"

Realistically yes. There might be a few TFs inserted here and there but unless something radically changes I would expect the incarnate content to be trial focused.

Similarly I would expect each new tier of slots to have it's own salvage. The practical reason for this is to move people into newer and more challenging content. When the next tier of slots are released the new content will almost certainly assume a certain level of access to the old slots (at the very least I imagine it'll assume a +3 level shift) and be balanced accordingly. A new salvage type means you have to do the content balanced around the existing slots to unlock the new ones rather than using the existing slots to faceroll through the existing content.

I did a lot of raiding in EQ1 during the time of 72 person raids, and I burned out quite badly on that. I still shudder at memory of the all-night session I took part in when the guild I was in finally completed the Rathe Council for the first time. Since those days I've barely raided at all in other MMOs I've played. A little in EQ2, sure, but none at all in WoW.

These Incarnate trials are orders of magnitude more accessible. I've found people running leagues on Pinnacle to be accessible and willing to take a chance on players they didn't know. I've found the trials to be quick and enjoyable to play, and recently I took part in a successful 8-man Lambda that comprised of the few players still in the league at the tail end of the day.

Some of this will depend a bit on the community on your server; I've found the members of the Pinnbadges channel to be friendly and accessible, with open leagues frequently advertised in channel. I have no idea what it's like where you are.

I appreciate you taking the time to offer some encouragement. I still doubt I will give the trials a try any time in the foreseeable future though. I learned the hard way that my personality does not mix well with this type of content. (Raiding for hours 5 nights a week, oh the terrible memories I have of that. I still wonder why I did it.) I get far too frustrated (at both the game and the other players) for it to be something I'd be willing to even attempt. And to actually grind it out over and over like so many people are doing? <shudder>

In the end I guess I just don't understand how this style of play can be fun for anyone. I don't think of that as a failing on my part or anyone else's. It's just the way I'm wired, so to speak.

i've mostly been playing lowbie alts since a couple weeks before i20 went live. This past week i actually started running a few of the iTrials with two of my Incarnates. Well, only one really, the other one has only done two BAF runs. So far i've unlocked 2 slots on the active Incarnate and slotted both with tier 2 boosts. It's mostly been PuGs and whims for me even though a bunch of friends in game have been avidly running trials every evening. i've got four lowbies that i've been more focused on, so the new trials haven't been a priority.

If you're avoiding anything to do with the Incarnate system/end game with such revulsion in my opinion it's more to do with your own prejudices than anything that actually exists in the game. i certainly have not been compelled to endlessly run trials. Hell, i haven't even bothered with most of the WTF the last couple of weeks on my incarnates since they all have at least one tier 3. Although some of my lowbies have gotten nice bonuses from them.

The only thing i plan to make a priority in the next week or so is running the new SF. i've already done the new TF a couple times and enjoyed it.

Boycotting the new trials just because you didn't like raids in some other game from years ago is a little... uh... inflexible and prejudicial. But that's just my opinion.

Mind you, overlooking anything that doesn't fit a predetermined opinion and seizing on the slimmest scraps that support it is a very common tendency in all people. Look at G2099... Okay, that's one of the more absurdly extreme examples, but it's a common tendency for everyone.

We're extremely likely to get more of the same. I don't think we're likely to get just more of the same, although the tendency will likely be for high-end end game content to be teamed, as it has always been in the past with trials, task forces, and zone events.

More sophisticated content will also filter down to lower levels: things like the two new task/strike forces for example. And as they add more trials there will be more opportunities to do different things to unlock the same slots and the higher slots. But fundamentally, level 41 through 50 was the same as level 31 through 40, but with different critters. If you didn't like 31-40, 41-50 was going to be more of the same. Interface through Lore is not going to be identical to the rest of the slots up through Omega, but on the other hand if you don't like the end game so far, I'm not the one to blow sunshine up your skirt and say the other slots will suddenly become magically totally different, because I don't believe that to be a true statement.

If you like and prefer the standard game, its still there and will still be added to, just like they still add level 20 content and level 40 content. They will still add level 50 content that is not an incarnate trial periodically. But level 50 has to share time and resources with the incarnate system now.

And as the non-Incarnate 50 content has almost 7 years head start, they're likely to focus a lot more on Incarnate content for a while to help it catch up.

Yikes. Well, I'll be honest... that's a bit of a downer. I've now done Lambda and BAF as much as I care to and I've only filled out three out of four slots on each of my two characters.

I don't understand why the system needs to be as repetitive as it is, but then, I'm not a game developer. I believe you when you say that it isn't likely to change much.

I'd hoped that this was just the beginning, and that it might have become more accessible and varied over time, but I have a sneaking suspicion that every new issue with Incarnate content is going to be like this, isn't it? We get stronger, only to participate in slightly tougher trials so we can collect rebranded Incarnate Salvage along with newer, better merits, all so we can one day be a part of a swarm of heroes that Tyrant can brag to his cronies about soloing.

Sorry if I'm reading too much into it, but I can't help but feel a little bit bummed. I really want to like the system, but I find little to recommend it as it currently exists. The simple answer is to opt out if I really don't enjoy it, but then I will be opting out of all the future stories this game has to tell, at least as far as the endgame is concerned.

Its because its much more efficient to make. Why make 10 new missions when you can just get people to do the same mission 10 times?

The system doesn't have to be repetitive. It just isn't designed to recycle older content (except for the shard-bridge from standard to end game content). If the devs could have released I20 with fifty Incarnate trials, that would have been fantastic and no one would have to repeat anything. But they just can't generate content that fast.

Although I should mention, however, that there is actually a technical reason for the system being at least *somewhat* repetitive. For raids to work, there has to be enough participation to create critical density of players wanting to do the content. So actually, if I20 released with fifty trials, we couldn't actually be doing fifty different trials because there's not enough players to do that. Instead leagues would form that would do a bunch in sequence, from one to the next. If you logged in and joined a team in the middle of such a progress, you would have little choice or opportunity in doing something other than what that team was running along doing. That diffuses the players across a lot of content, creating other problems.

*Some* minimum amount of player-density is required for the end game. And while it probably could have been lower with four trials, or maybe even six, at some point the players would have been spread too thinly. And when you concentrate the players into a smaller amount of content, you will always create some theoretical repetitiveness.

Its actually the reason we don't just keep increasing the level cap. Among other reasons, more levels scatters the players across larger combat level ranges. You actually need a certain number of players to have a certain amount of levels, because the number of high level characters has to exceed a certain amount. Part of the technical reason why CoX end game is what it is, is because the devs have the challenge of adding higher "levels" to the game while still keeping everyone close to level 50 combat performance in at least some sense. We don't have the twelve million players it takes to have an 85 level cap. And even Blizzard was judicious in adding more levels. They have over a hundred times our playerbase and only 70% more levels.

Don't get me wrong, I've done my homework. I've talked with others that have run the trials, read strategies, and looked up what info there is (sparse as it may be right now) on Paragon Wiki. The Incarnate content has all the hallmarks of the type of content I absolutely can't stand:

1) Instant death mechanics. Honestly this sort of thing just feels like a cheap shot when it happens.
2) Extremely large team sizes. I've yet to play a game that can handle large numbers of people without lag. I also find these sorts of battles very confusing and find it difficult to operate effectively at all.
3) Necessary to run the exact same content multiple times to achieve real progress. My tolerance for grinding is fairly high, but not that high.
4) Very unforgiving boss mechanics that can lead to a full team wipe in a hurry. (Similar to #1, but I feel it's different enough to merit its own mention.)
5) Extremely pet unfriendly environmental/AoE damage spikes. My favorite characters all have pets (MM's, Dom's, Controllers, my beloved Warshade).

So yeah, from my perspective there's a lot to not like there. I absolutely detest content that has the above characteristics. Others find it challenging and fun, and I accept that. I really don't begrudge them their fun.

I suppose what has really gotten my hackles raised regarding the Incarnate system is both my own history with other games and the player reactions I've seen on these boards. When it first became apparent the Incarnate content was not meant to be solo friendly at all (at least not the definition of solo friendly I personally would use) I participated in a lot of debates centering around that here on the boards. The basic vibe I saw time and again from the opposing viewpoint was very hostile and downright insulting at times. It caused me to revise my opinion of several of the more prolific forum posters from "nice folks" to "absolute jerks" in very short order. A few of them even went on ignore, something I haven't done to anyone in the entire seven years I've played this game.

There's also the looming doubt I have regarding the nature of future updates. I've seen it said many times the Devs won't JUST be developing Incarnate content. However as we all know our Dev team has historically struggled with resource allocation and it often takes them quite a while to get content done. While I have no doubt they will eventually produce non-Incarnate content again, the frequency with which they do so is of concern to me. If I can only realistically expect a content release with something I want to do in it once a year (just an example), why am I continuing to play? It certainly can't be for the companionship. Most everyone I know has either moved to newer games or are busily grinding away at the Incarnate system. One can only solo for so long before it gets boring.

Ah well, just some thoughts I have on the matter. I guess I'm just trying to get people to understand there are valid reasons to not like the system yet still like the game. Not everyone who speaks out against it is a doomcryer, and not all of us are anti-teaming either. The Incarnate system just isn't a good fit for some of us and we're a little concerned how often we'll get content we enjoy going forward. Combine that with the flak we get for speaking out sometimes and well, it leads to all sorts of "fun".

And that is a perfectly reasonably stance to take. There is no obligation or coercion on you to do the trials at all.

For me, it's been good to dip my toes back into larger scale encounters without having to deal with guild politics and enormous time sinks. Plus the background to them is entertaining, too.

The only 'instant death' mechanic i can think if is Marauder's Nova Fist. Which, due to the one shot code, will just put you at 1hp, and its actually pretty easy to heal up from it. The towers in Baf, while unresistable damage, does it in scaling DoTs, so if you can break line of sight, or heal yourself faster then then incoming damage, you can actually survive the towers. Plus they are be turned off via glowies (granted, that will ruin a badge requirement, and cut everyone an astral merit, so most people just ignore them)

Plus, speaking of the towers, they also target pets (renewable) and masterminds (which can soak the damage all day long due to bodyguard mode) If your going for an achievement, having a mastermind in the line of sight of a tower pretty much doubles the possible targets the towers can hit, and allows a lot of its damage to be wasted on renewable targets.
Lambda as a minimal requirement of 8 players. A maximum of 16 players. So you can queue up as a normal 8 person team, and run, and complete Lambda pretty easily. Granted the LFG system will probably give you a few extra people, but if you can handle 8, you can handle 10 - 12 pretty easily.

BAF as a minimal requirement of 12 players, and a maximum of 24. This is where the league UI comes in handy, and if you really want you can just turn league chat on, and keep your team window open (as most AOE buffs are team wide) and just listen to the league leader.

While the lag can be an issue, i find Lambda and BAF to have much less lag then a Hami raid, or even a mothership raid, so if you can run either one of those without lag you can handle the Lambda and Baf.
This there really isn't much of a counter point to, so i'll have to concede on it for now. Though the dev's have told us they are designing at least 2 more trials, who knows if they can be used to unlock the 4 slots we are opening up right now.
Yes, and no. Like i already mentioned, the 'tricks' the AV are much easy to avoid (Nova fist warns you on the screen when its about to happen, giving you close to a 10 second window to avoid it) and the Sequestration abilities in BAF need to hit you 3 times in order to hold you, and while it is a mag 5,000 hold, it only lasts about 15 seconds, and more often then not you will also be hit with a 'Ignore' power that prevents the AVs (or even mobs around them) to target you while you are held. The artillery in Lambda, is really just a mass AoE debuff tool, that does some pretty nasty -dmg, and -rech, but it does very little actual damage. Now, if you ignore the sequestration, and ignore nova fist (or just don't avoid it) you can see yourself being held a lot, (if your tanking, or have large amounts of aggro) and having your hp yo-yo up and down due to AoE healing keeping you alive after nova fits hits.
The AOE damage spikes aren't nearly as bad now, as they were on day 1. With the fact that most people have +3 level shifts (which make your pets also +3) and t1 or higher Destiny powers, a lot of the AoE damage is negated. If i'm not careful, i lose about 1 - 3 pets every couple of minutes in a Marauder fight, but thats mostly due to lack of controlling them, I don't use macros, and i mostly just let them to their thing, which against level 54 mobs (even at +3) can mean certain death.

Doms, controllers and warshades, while they do have pets, have a much easier time controlling them due to the pets usually focusing on the target the player is working on as well, and most of the dom and controller pets have some pretty nice resistance/def base, which stack with the destiny buffs making them survive the entire fight.

Another thing you want to consider is that most of the AoEs being thrown around at cones. Almost all the IDF (Imperial Defense Force) is single target, with a few AOE debuffs thrown in. Vickys, the warworks bosses are PURE single target, with the minions and LTs have AOE debuffs, and cone attacks. Also, with most everyone having a t1 judgement power, the additional mobs that spawn usually don't last very long past the alpha, so your pets end up surviving the entire fight.

Again, i can understand where you are coming from, i just wanted to add some insight into the way the fights are actually set up. Paragonwiki and the guides make things out to be much harder then they really are sometimes.

These don't exist in the form you seem to think. Yes there are powerful attacks but they either give you warning (i.e. Nova Fist) or are relatively survivable (the BAF Cannons). The point is that avoiding these attacks is part of the fun.

The only time I've noticed real lag on the trials is the prisoner phase of the BAF. Personally I think that is actually something to do with the prisoners rather than the number of players.

The majority of missions in the game basically come down to one of two things:
1. Locate a point somewhere in the map and kill/click on something there
2. Kill everything on the map.

The only variance is the aesthetics of the mission which also repeat frequently enough that I lose interest. With that in mind the variation in teams is primarily limited to my teammates, what power combinations they have and how they play.

The trials provide the same teammate variation as normal missions and are a lot more interesting than normal missions. Sure, it basically comes down to the same two objectives but they are presented in a more interesting way than with normal missions.

Now in complete honesty, if it wasn't for the powers I probably wouldn't run them as much. This isn't so much an issue with the trials but more about me. When I play I like enjoyable content but I also like to increase in power. Without enjoyable content I wouldn't have any interest in the incarnate system but without the incarnate system I wouldn't have much interest in the trials either since I'd rather play a character that can increase in power. The rate at which I increase in power and the content I run to do so is essentially immaterial as long as I feel liek I'm progressing and the content is reasonably enjoyable.

This really isn't the case in these trials. The worst situation is Siege in the BAF where you can get a critical buildup of 9CUs that prevent you from taking him out. Even there though I've seen a team reach that point but then manage to rally together and take them down to get back into the fight.

Again, I haven't seen this as a major issue. One of my Incarnates in an MM and I've been doing fine on the trials. The weapon portion of Lambda is a bit hairy but even there I can participate with a lot of resummoning.