Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm aware that these trials are a far cry from the raids I ran in other games. Nevertheless, there are enough similarities in the style of play that I just don't care for it. For example, Adeon mentioned that avoiding the big nasty attacks of some of the mobs is part of the fun. For me, that is part of what makes it a pain in the butt. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Again, i can respect that Steel, I'm just really not sure where or what your comparing this to. This is NOT 5 hour raiding sessions, this is NOT 30+ man raids, with 1 big bad that takes weeks to finally down, and you still progress even if you fail.
If you can run regular Task Forces (say, any of the Task Force Commander ones, or even a ITF) then you can run a trial. While there are only 2, running them once or twice a week (as in, one baf or lambda a week, or both of them) will allow you to progress, win or fail, much faster then just converting shards to threads. These trials were designed to be difficult, but designed to be ran within an hour time frame (which is to say, less time then the LGTF was designed to be ran in, as that has a 90 min average time frame) and designed to be pretty straight forward and to reward you for merely showing up, instead of having to actually complete the trial successfully. |
A really good example is the big blue patches Battle Maiden makes in the Apex TF. I can't stand the "don't stand in the fire" mechanic. Other people find it interesting. To each their own.
I imagine you're wondering "well what kind of content DOES he like?" I like very simple tank and spank bosses with limited mechanics. In other words, the type of stuff we've had for the last 7 years. I know others may find that non-challenging and boring. To me, it's fun.
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Ya know what, i can respect that. I used to be the same way (until i started playing masterminds, and i could 'tank and spank' better then most tankers could, but that's a different story) so i can completely understand the familiarity aspect of tank and spank encounters. Hopefully the devs can add a level of 'casual' game, which will allow you to progress the 'high end' systems, without having to deal with the other mechanics that come with them.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I'm aware that these trials are a far cry from the raids I ran in other games. Nevertheless, there are enough similarities in the style of play that I just don't care for it. For example, Adeon mentioned that avoiding the big nasty attacks of some of the mobs is part of the fun. For me, that is part of what makes it a pain in the butt.
A really good example is the big blue patches Battle Maiden makes in the Apex TF. I can't stand the "don't stand in the fire" mechanic. Other people find it interesting. To each their own. I imagine you're wondering "well what kind of content DOES he like?" I like very simple tank and spank bosses with limited mechanics. In other words, the type of stuff we've had for the last 7 years. I know others may find that non-challenging and boring. To me, it's fun. |
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Thank you.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Ya know what, i can respect that. I used to be the same way (until i started playing masterminds, and i could 'tank and spank' better then most tankers could, but that's a different story) so i can completely understand the familiarity aspect of tank and spank encounters. Hopefully the devs can add a level of 'casual' game, which will allow you to progress the 'high end' systems, without having to deal with the other mechanics that come with them.
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I really doubt the Devs do any content like that for the Incarnate system though. Some players would feel like it cheapened their efforts by having a much easier route to the same powers added later. I can't say I would disagree with them either.
Ah well, I really should get to bed. Thanks for the conversation, it's been interesting.
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For what it's worth I hope they do eventually add something like that.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I really doubt the Devs do any content like that for the Incarnate system though. Some players would feel like it cheapened their efforts by having a much easier route to the same powers added later. I can't say I would disagree with them either.
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The nature of any end-game progression system is that the further it goes the fewer people will reach the "end" point. Positron has talked in the past about eventually adding more incarnate powers past the first 10. The problem I see with that is that as they add more powers the content will need to be tougher to compensate which in turn means fewer people with the gear to handle it. A "gear reset" system where the older slots become easier to get as time goes own will allow the devs to push the incarnate system further and longer without locking out new players/characters.
As for devaluing efforts, how? My efforts to get incarnate stuff are MY efforts. The fact that other people end up getting the same stuff more easily doesn't change my accomplishments. It's like the people who got MoLGTF with the bugged Hamidon, sure other people have MoLGTF but that doesn't change the fact that the irst group were able to do it in the face fo a massive bug.
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Another question.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The system doesn't have to be repetitive. It just isn't designed to recycle older content (except for the shard-bridge from standard to end game content). If the devs could have released I20 with fifty Incarnate trials, that would have been fantastic and no one would have to repeat anything. But they just can't generate content that fast.
Although I should mention, however, that there is actually a technical reason for the system being at least *somewhat* repetitive. For raids to work, there has to be enough participation to create critical density of players wanting to do the content. So actually, if I20 released with fifty trials, we couldn't actually be doing fifty different trials because there's not enough players to do that. Instead leagues would form that would do a bunch in sequence, from one to the next. If you logged in and joined a team in the middle of such a progress, you would have little choice or opportunity in doing something other than what that team was running along doing. That diffuses the players across a lot of content, creating other problems. *Some* minimum amount of player-density is required for the end game. And while it probably could have been lower with four trials, or maybe even six, at some point the players would have been spread too thinly. And when you concentrate the players into a smaller amount of content, you will always create some theoretical repetitiveness. Its actually the reason we don't just keep increasing the level cap. Among other reasons, more levels scatters the players across larger combat level ranges. You actually need a certain number of players to have a certain amount of levels, because the number of high level characters has to exceed a certain amount. Part of the technical reason why CoX end game is what it is, is because the devs have the challenge of adding higher "levels" to the game while still keeping everyone close to level 50 combat performance in at least some sense. We don't have the twelve million players it takes to have an 85 level cap. And even Blizzard was judicious in adding more levels. They have over a hundred times our playerbase and only 70% more levels. |
If I played the trials somewhat casually, only as much as I actually wanted to - call it twenty runs at an estimate, not per character but across my entire account - it's pretty obvious to me that I'd never get anywhere with the Incarnate Rewards. Am I likely to be left out of future Incarnate trials simply because my characters would no longer be tall enough to get on the ride? Is there likely to be a minimum strength level that I'm not going to be at because I don't want to farm?
The Ballad of Iron Percy
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I have to disagree here. Not completely mind you, but disagree nonetheless. To boil down missions to "go kill" or "go click" is, in my opinion, to miss an easy half of what makes City of Heroes a great game - the story. I've played quite a few games in my time and seen quite a few fictional universes. This one is BY FAR the most interesting, for the simple fact that it's somewhat unusual for a game. I haven't read many comics, so those might be even more interesting (though Linkara makes it clear that they aren't always), but the point remains - the story matters.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The majority of missions in the game basically come down to one of two things:
1. Locate a point somewhere in the map and kill/click on something there 2. Kill everything on the map. |
At least, it matters in regular content, or did at one point, anyway. Incarnate content just doesn't seem to have much of any. Sure, the Ramiel arc is pretty well-written and there does appear to be a plotline behind the Incarnate system. It just never comes into play much at all. It's like the WoW story - who cares about why I have to go raid a floating castle in the sky? There be loot in there! S'all that matters. That's not a good thing.
Maybe I'm biassed, I don't know. I've been ragging on the story for quite some time now, because it feels like a great many of the newer stories we've been getting have been half-***** with the assumption that no-one would care, and that's a cryin' shame. But really - who COULD care about the story behind the Lambada or the BARF? Who, after running the things 16 times in a row? I live for the story and I wouldn't care. Hell, I've been running Tips in search for Hero Merits for some times and I stop reading their briefings the third time I come across one. How much do you think I'd care for a Trial the 20th time through?
I've always seen City of Heroes as a largely mediocre GAME that's good only because I can bypass most of its challenge anyway. What keeps me here are the amazing characters I create and the inspiring storylines I take them through even after all these years. Take that away, and all we have is a very old, fairly ugly static game that can't compete with the newer, shinier MMOs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've run them maybe 20-25 times across my entire account. |
Originally Posted by The_Hegemon
Another question.
If I played the trials somewhat casually, only as much as I actually wanted to - call it twenty runs at an estimate, not per character but across my entire account - it's pretty obvious to me that I'd never get anywhere with the Incarnate Rewards. Am I likely to be left out of future Incarnate trials simply because my characters would no longer be tall enough to get on the ride? Is there likely to be a minimum strength level that I'm not going to be at because I don't want to farm? |
So far I have Judgement, Interface, and Lore unlocked on my main, and Judgement unlocked on my "second main".
My main is sitting at tier 2 Judgement and Interface, and tier 1 Lore. The other is sitting at tier 2 Judgement.
I also have a 3rd character I've been playing them with, who has otherwise been collecting dust for the past year or so. The trials give me something fun to do with him again (Fire/Fire blasters are incredibly fun on these trials)
I'm far from playing the trials obsessively, and I've managed to make decent progress at my own pace. If you take your time with them and do other stuff too, it really isn't that bad. I haven't seen any elitism as far as "You have to have tier X of power Y if you want to play with us", but maybe the server I'm on just doesn't have much of that attitude (Pinnacle, for the record)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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It isn't elitism I'm worried about - I don't think anyone would look at me twice on a BAF run unless they think I'm AFK. Rather, it's the hard-wired requirements of the trials. If future content is designed around having the Level Shift and the two Incarnate Shifts, as some posters have suggested is likely, then I need to worry about being frozen out of those by default on characters that aren't likely to have them.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I've run them maybe 20-25 times across my entire account.
So far I have Judgement, Interface, and Lore unlocked on my main, and Judgement unlocked on my "second main". My main is sitting at tier 2 Judgement and Interface, and tier 1 Lore. The other is sitting at tier 2 Judgement. I also have a 3rd character I've been playing them with, who has otherwise been collecting dust for the past year or so. The trials give me something fun to do with him again (Fire/Fire blasters are incredibly fun on these trials) I'm far from playing the trials obsessively, and I've managed to make decent progress at my own pace. If you take your time with them and do other stuff too, it really isn't that bad. I haven't seen any elitism as far as "You have to have tier X of power Y if you want to play with us", but maybe the server I'm on just doesn't have much of that attitude (Pinnacle, for the record) |
I'm just asking if this sort of bar-raising for new trials is likely to occur.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
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I doubt it. Here's why. I do not believe for one moment that the Level Shifts will go above +4-+6 with +4 being the most likely. Reason being is that I think the devs will always want to make sure that a level 50 can make some contribution to the trials. A pure level 50, without even the Alpha Shift, can contribute to the trials. It's just like any character fighting +4 mobs. They aren't as useful as someone running at +3, but then that person didn't start there either.|
Originally Posted by The_Hegemon
Another question.
If I played the trials somewhat casually, only as much as I actually wanted to - call it twenty runs at an estimate, not per character but across my entire account - it's pretty obvious to me that I'd never get anywhere with the Incarnate Rewards. Am I likely to be left out of future Incarnate trials simply because my characters would no longer be tall enough to get on the ride? Is there likely to be a minimum strength level that I'm not going to be at because I don't want to farm? |
The only thing I would do if I didn't want to run these over and over is focus on 1-2 characters to run them. So if you're going to do them perhaps 20 times, then at least you'll have a solid basis for a couple of Incarnates. For my, my real life is too busy and too hectic to get my whole stable of 11 level 50s to T3s in each slot. So I picked 3. Two are at T3 in each slot, one is on her way to that. I don't feel like I'm 'farming'. I only play a trial or two a day.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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But not everyone shares your outlook on things. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've always seen City of Heroes as a largely mediocre GAME that's good only because I can bypass most of its challenge anyway. What keeps me here are the amazing characters I create and the inspiring storylines I take them through even after all these years. Take that away, and all we have is a very old, fairly ugly static game that can't compete with the newer, shinier MMOs.
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A significant number of people are enjoying the mechanics of the trials, simply because they are NOT the same old tank and spank/click the glowie/rescue the hostage/deliver a pizza to Positron content we've had for 7 years.
If the end game content, including the trials, was nothing more than another "unkillable tank holds agro while the rest of the team whittles it down" fight, there would probably be a lot of people sorely disappointed that the much touted "end game" was exactly the same as the REST of the game.
Different is good. And in a game this old, different is necessary in order to retain people's attention.
Also of note is the old saying that any publicity is good publicity. Think on this: This thread, and others like it are serving a purpose. Whether the people talking about it love the content or despise it.....they are still talking about it either way.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Just out of interest, what interesting mechanics are you talking about? As far as I can tell, other than the league UI thing, pretty much everything in the iTrials is from other missions in the game (which have been around for years). Maybe I've missed something though.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A significant number of people are enjoying the mechanics of the trials, simply because they are NOT the same old tank and spank/click the glowie/rescue the hostage/deliver a pizza to Positron content we've had for 7 years.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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You missed lots. Super attacks that warn you get the F*** outta the way, adds that if you don't take out right away gain a steady to-hit+damage bonus that no amount of defence will counter, downing multiple AVs at once or they res each other, turrets that can't be taken out but can be shut down temporaily. Need I go on?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Just out of interest, what interesting mechanics are you talking about? As far as I can tell, other than the league UI thing, pretty much everything in the iTrials is from other missions in the game (which have been around for years). Maybe I've missed something though.
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Lore-wise, the devs seem to be setting up Incarnates as something linked to cosmic threats, which only teams can defeat - like the cosmic threat level isn't something anyone can handle on their own.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I really doubt the Devs do any content like that for the Incarnate system though.
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Saving the world in the non-Incarnate part of the game still usually requires a team, so saving the multiverse requires multiple teams.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yep, those would be the mechanics I was talking about. Especially the downing of multiple AVs at once. If you're going for the Gotta Keep Em Separated badge (required to master it) you have to beat both AVs within 10 seconds....on opposite sides of the map.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
You missed lots. Super attacks that warn you get the F*** outta the way, adds that if you don't take out right away gain a steady to-hit+damage bonus that no amount of defence will counter, downing multiple AVs at once or they res each other, turrets that can't be taken out but can be shut down temporaily. Need I go on?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Current game mechanics turned up to 11 in a Trial could mean that we get an escort/protect phase in one Trial - maybe even with Fusionette AI for the NPCs we're guarding 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
One would think Fusionette would make a great escort.
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This is just a form of tank and spank. I wouldn't wave this sort of thing around as evidence of some new or innovative mechanic. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yep, those would be the mechanics I was talking about. Especially the downing of multiple AVs at once. If you're going for the Gotta Keep Em Separated badge (required to master it) you have to beat both AVs within 10 seconds....on opposite sides of the map.
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Some of the others I agree with.
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"More of the same" could mean more than one thing. We'll get more Incarnate content, but it doesn't necessarily have to be more of what we're already seeing (Trials). It could just simply mean we'll be getting more of the same idea that the Incarnate system represents, which Arcana eluded to: a departure from the old 50 content and how you run it. They could find a way to give us content meant for smaller groups than these Trials require, and still make it meaningfully different than running Maria Jenkins' arc over and over, for example, which is what most folks did for kicks because the AVs were the toughest challenge in the game at the time.|
Originally Posted by The_Hegemon
Are you saying that we're likely to just get more of the same in the future - more choreographed multi-team trials, repeated a dozen or more times to unlock and slot new boosts? Is this sort of thing all I can expect from the future Incarnate content?
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You will not be able to unlock further slots without some measure of commitment, but that doesn't have to mean grinding. They might allow us to add the BAF and Lambda to the list of future tasks that will unlock further slots, to give more variety in how you unlock them, which would alleviate much of the complaints we're seeing now (only having two things that can unlock slots quickly).
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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It's a better form of it. You have to pay attention to what you're doing or you'll never get them both down. It's taken the mindless part of fighting one AV, or splitting a pair or group of them up so you can thin the herd one at a time out of the equation.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
This is just a form of tank and spank. I wouldn't wave this sort of thing around as evidence of some new or innovative mechanic.
Some of the others I agree with. |
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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Right, it's Tank and Spank 2.0.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
It's a better form of it. You have to pay attention to what you're doing or you'll never get them both down. It's taken the mindless part of fighting one AV, or splitting a pair or group of them up so you can thin the herd one at a time out of the equation.
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You're correct, but really we've gotten tons of complaints about just this tip toe out of of the steamroll express. The devs could really make this interesting, but then it wouldn't be as accessible. I'm sure later raids will have different mechanics, but I'm still happy that we don't have the snooze inducing bags of HP of yesteryear.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Right, it's Tank and Spank 2.0.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I agree as well. I like the newer Trials quite a bit. Lots of fun. The only exception is the laggy warehouses in Lambda and the Prisoner Escape lagfest in the BAF. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You're correct, but really we've gotten tons of complaints about just this tip toe out of of the steamroll express. The devs could really make this interesting, but then it wouldn't be as accessible. I'm sure later raids will have different mechanics, but I'm still happy that we don't have the snooze inducing bags of HP of yesteryear.
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If I feel the need to return to the good ole Tank and Spank 1.0, then I'll just run the ITF, STF or LRSF.
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Battle Maiden's Big Blue Bombs are too epic not to add to a Trial |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm sure later raids will have different mechanics
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Clouded
This is just a form of tank and spank. I wouldn't wave this sort of thing around as evidence of some new or innovative mechanic.
Some of the others I agree with. |
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Right, it's Tank and Spank 2.0.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Again, i can respect that Steel, I'm just really not sure where or what your comparing this to. This is NOT 5 hour raiding sessions, this is NOT 30+ man raids, with 1 big bad that takes weeks to finally down, and you still progress even if you fail.
If you can run regular Task Forces (say, any of the Task Force Commander ones, or even a ITF) then you can run a trial.
While there are only 2, running them once or twice a week (as in, one baf or lambda a week, or both of them) will allow you to progress, win or fail, much faster then just converting shards to threads.
These trials were designed to be difficult, but designed to be ran within an hour time frame (which is to say, less time then the LGTF was designed to be ran in, as that has a 90 min average time frame) and designed to be pretty straight forward and to reward you for merely showing up, instead of having to actually complete the trial successfully.