Multi-group content is not the way.

And similarly, there are people playing an hr at a time a few days a week with t3 boosts. The objective fact is that this endgame requires *far* less time commitment either in one sitting or overall than any other MMO with an endgame that I've ever even heard of. Does that make it "casual"? I dunno. I've found that a lot of people tend to think that their level of activity is the only true measure of "casual"...making the word pretty much useless in objective comparisons.

No, I absolutely will not.
If that means I never get anything new to play in CoH again then that is what it means. You can have your Incarnate system, I want no part of it.

Let me spell it out for you: I do not like end game systems. At all. I used to play CoH in part because it specifically did not have an end game. I was one of the people opposed to us getting one. I'm not happy we have an end game now. I will not participate in said end game. I feel the way I do because I raided quite heavily in another MMO and got so completely burned out on it that I will not touch the end game of any other MMO ever again.

I realize I am in a minority. I do not begrudge you and the others like you that enjoy grinding end game material. I just won't be joining you in that endeavor. To that end it is my fervent hope the Devs start releasing content for you and me simultaneously. It really doesn't take much to satisfy me. A proliferated powerset or two would keep me busy for literally months, for example.

That's just a mental block you need to overcome - run the Mender Ramiel arc and unlock your Alpha slot - it only takes like 30-45 minutes, and can be done solo.

Seeing as it's their stated intention to continue supporting and adding to the 1-50 game as well as the incarnate stuff, I don't see what the problem is.

I almost spit out my drink when I read this.

That's funny. Cheers mate. You just made my day.

It was clear that to add an end game system they would have abandon the rest of the game. And that is what has happened thus far, and may happen in the near future.

Actually I've run the Ramiel arc before. That was before I realized the direction the Incarnate content was headed. As long as it was soloable story arcs and random shard drops just from playing my character like I normally would I was fine. The second I heard about the raids though, all bets were off.

War Witch could PM me personally with an offer to give me a free lifetime sub to CoH if I just played the Incarnate content once a week for 30 minutes and I would say no.

I will admit I may be reacting prematurely. I was not the least bit amused that I20 was "CoH: Get Your Raid On". But I also realize I'm hypersensitive to the subject due to my personal history. So I'm trying to be patient, really I am.

Yeah, but you only have to run the ITF twice if you want the associated rewards. Add up all the successful Trial runs you need to perform if you want the rewards there and you start to see why people think it's hardcore.

Except that is not what has happened (non incarnate task forces this issue, entire new 1-20 area and new powersets in the expansion that included the start of the endgame system, separate dev team to work on the endgame) and it is *not* their stated intention.

If you don't want to believe what they've told us, that's one thing (one incredibly cynical and not based on past history thing) but at least try to base your claims in some kind of objective facts.

1. You do not need any special character or build to participate. Even an SO-slotted concept build can contribute sufficiently meaningfully to gain typical rewards.

2. The trials have no special preparatory requirements or recommended steps prior to execution, beyond amassing the appropriate number of players (like, say, collecting EoEs prior to a Hamidon raid).

3. The trials do not require specific player skills beyond what the rest of the game generally requires.

4. The trials do not require special out-of-game coordination, such as voice chat, to complete successfully.

5. The trials do not require substantial practice to complete successfully.

6. Failure grants a substantial percentage of the total possible average rewards.

7. The Incarnate power and slot rewards ultimately associated with the trials have entry-level variants that are a substantial percentage of the maximum possible reward and can be acquired in relatively trivial amounts of time relative to leveling time.


As a matter of fact, I've been analyzing the reward system itself to gain some insight into the participation algorithm, so that's something I've already done.

Eliminating things like Master runs and such, I'm averaging well over 350k iXP per Lambda, and over 200k iXP per BAF (i.e. the numbers are closer to 440k and 240k respectively). Those averages or better hold for all the runs I've done on an energy blaster, a single target focused MA scrapper, and an Illusion controller, so I believe they are likely to be reasonable average statistics. Assuming four threads and three astrals per run and 50k iXP per thread conversion and no component breakdown, the average number of trial runs necessary to unlock the four slots at those numbers would be:

Judgment: 1.5 BAFs
Interface: 1.3 Lambdas
Lore: 2.3 BAFs
Destiny: 2.0 Lambdas

Total: ~ 4 BAFs and 4 Lambdas.

In other words, four pairs of runs unlocks all four slots. And how long to get at least a common power slotted in all four? Assuming your average drop is a common drop, each run nets the equivalent of 36 threads per run. It takes 60 thread-equivalents to slot a common power, so four takes 240 threads which is 7 runs. But your first eight to unlock generated eight common components (since I didn't count breaking them down) so actually you only need 120 thread equivalents or about 4 more runs.

That's a total of 12 runs to unlock four slots and slot four common powers, averaging three trial runs per slot. The worst case scenario is you get uncommon drops on every run which are only worth nine threads on average via breakdown, in which case it would take about three more runs total.


Whatever other problems the trials have, being "hardcore" isn't one of them. The are somewhat more complex than the standard content in terms of the task requirements per trial for successful completion, but only because the vast majority of standard content has zero gameplay requirement complexity beyond finding your way to the mission objectives. Casual != Solo. The fact that the trials are teamed content does not automatically make them hardcore. 12 is not a big number. The fact that some players want to do all twelve in one sitting does not make the system itself hardcore. A player who does two on saturday and two on sunday and spends the rest of the week doing something else or nothing else entirely would be 2/3rds of the way done with slotting commons in all four slots of a character. In terms of *speed* of progress you really cannot ask for anything better than that. Or rather, you can ask, but you won't get. It is actually too casual to function as an end game system for any MMO except probably this one.


Now, if someone wants Very Rares slotted in all four slots in multiple characters then its not the system that is hardcore, they are.

When did it happen?

You know that once you open the Alpha slot, it's impossible to avoid getting Shard drops as you play, don't you?

There was a new TF and a new SF in I20, both for sub-50s - although as the reward at the end of the SF can be converted later into an Incarnate component when you hit 50, you might need to avoid playing that one too.

Farmville is more hardcore than CoH is. At least based on the number of people who seemingly spend all their time playing it.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

My only real complaint about this number is that common components are actually rather unlikely to get for most people (based on forum reports and my own experiences). I tend to end up getting uncommon components which are the least useful in terms of Incarnate progress (only need 2 for each very rare, they break down into half a common component which means slower progress compared to getting a common drop and I can't upgrade them to rares since I'm spending all of my threads on common components).

So? Unless the accumulation of shards will somehow suck me into a black hole and dump me out in the BAF, I'm good.

I'm quite aware the new TF is tied to the Incarnate storyline. I have no intention of running it. I'm rather tired of City of Praetoria. But ah well, it's a new shiny. Hopefully the Devs will get it out of their system soon enough.

Throwing scraps isn't fooling anyone that pays a monthly sub.

I like how the art animation team is tied up because of incarnate content.

What happened? I thought only half the team would work on Incarnate content? Oh...you don't like to point out that fact because it makes your past ramblings look poor.

Agree with so much you provided there, Arcanaville, but I wanted to share my own experience here. I started the trials late and with virtually no good research, so as a casual "noob" I was probably pretty close to what some others would experience. I just "went where everyone else went and did what everyone else was doing." The result:

• The Lambdas regularly gave me 35-55% progress for Interface... pretty close to what you experienced here. Lambda groups regularly cleared the map before entering the facility, so it tends to farm iXP rather well. We also weren't very good at taking out the reinforcement doors, leading to more iXP. In the runs that had the reinforcement doors shut down quickly, I saw notably less reward.
• The BAFs were all successes, but I rarely got over 15% of my progress for judgement. The reason: seems to be 1) you destroy far fewer NPC's in the first phase compared to Lambda, 2) "following the crowd" means concentrating fire on the AV's, not their reinforcements, in subsequent phases... losing a significant chunk of potential iXP. That changed on my third and fourth BAF's... when I started to make my own judgement of what needed done. My SR scrapper varied from attacking the AV to taking down the reinforcements that were decimating the squishies. Not only did I get get almost triple my usual jump in the progress meter, but those netted my first rare and very rare rewards.

People that are new to the BAF and reluctant to diverge from (following the crowd) as I was are probably seeing similar bleak progress. I'd bet that your experimentation and testing is giving you a more comprehensive experience, and therefore more reward.

I guess they did the floating fortress and warship interriors in their lunch hour?

If you play any 50 with an open Alpha slot, then you're going to end up with enough Shards to open and equip more slots.

The new TF isn't really tied to the Incarnate storyline - the new SF is, although it doesn't involve Praetoria.
Praetoria will be expanded in future Issues, plus we have several more Trials set there before we have a showdown with Tyrant, and then it's on to the Coming Storm Trials

Guess again.

Look at the BAF and Lambda. They're almost all art assets that existed from GR's launch. The interior of Lambda is about the only new map, but a sizable chunk of its contents can be seen in older, preceding maps. A larger portion of art assets can be seen in the new TASK FORCES that were part of the new issue (ships, ship interiors, etc).

More likely, as the devs have said before, they are hard at work on future issues' material. Animation and art are resources that needs to be well on their way to completion before you can include it in zones, stories, and missions. They're often much more forward-looking... often begun over a half-year to a year before you'll see it in a finished product.

Who said they are? I don't work there, so I'm not privy to exactly who's doing what or when, or to the exclusion of what ever else. And neither, I'd wager, are you. I'm just going by what they told us. Posi is heading up the endgame systems, War Witch will be focused on the rest of the game. I don't doubt that there's some overlap in the handling of specific tasks."Hey, FX folks...need some FX for these Incarnate powers...mind knocking those out since we're not adding any other new FX in this issue?"

It's only "scraps" when they're not focused on one's particular favorite bit of the game. Hero players were thrown scraps when I7 came out. PVE people weren't thrilled with the PvP focused issue. PvP people aren't thrilled pretty much ever etc etc. None of that changes the fact that they said they are going to continue to support the 1-50 as they also continue to roll out incarnate content. It also doesn't change the fact that to date, they've done just that.

It took me around 12 runs total to unlock all the slots on my Blaster. I failed a few, got onto many successful Lambdas where no Astrals were earned, and tended to save the threads I got in order to craft and slot my boosts. It took me a few more than that to slot commons in the slots I cared about.

I disagree when you say that 12 successful runs per character is not a big number. That's probably more than I have run any single Task Force on a single character throughout my entire stay in this game. In my opinion, that's a lot of times to run one set of content just to slot the most basic set of boosts. I did this with two characters, so roughly 24 runs just to get the starter set. Indeed, I ended up running them more than this because I wanted more than the T1 boost on three of those slots. That's a lot of times to watch Mother's rant, a lot of times to listen to Marauder chide the league for being on the ground again. I have a third Alpha-slotted character I'd intended to continue on the path to Incarnate with, but the thought of doing it all again really isn't appealing.

I realize that endgame systems in other MMOs are even more grindy than this, and that we have it easy with City of Heroes. But I don't subscribe to those games, I subscribe to this one.

I like variety. We had it with the Alpha slot - literally any endgame TFs or missions offered significant progress toward it, and I found myself progressing just by playing my Alpha-unlocked characters. I found myself progressing a lot if I went out of my way to run the WST once in a while.

I take no issue with the trials themselves. I take issue with having to run them and only them in order to make real progress. Really, my favorite task force in the game would start to annoy me if I had to run it twelve times to get a reward I wanted. I enjoyed the trials the first eight times or so, after which point I'd unlocked a couple slots on one character and didn't have any boosts in. Soon, it became apparent to me that I would have to either hold my nose and keep going despite a general lack of enjoyment, or opt out of the incredibly cool and attractive Incarnate Boosts. I don't like this.

And again, just because I have the Shards doesn't mean I have to do anything with them. When I said I'm not going to participate I meant it. My latest project is an Earth/Psi Dom. He isn't 50 yet, and I doubt I will be unlocking the Alpha slot on him when he does hit 50. There would be no point in doing so since I don't intend to participate in the Incarnate system with him.

That's nice and all, I suppose, but it doesn't really give me anything new to sink my teeth into (well, the Praetoria expansion would). I'm sure I'll get something along the line, but if it's Incarnate content I will ignore it entirely.

You seem to be having difficulty accepting I don't like the end game system and that I will not be participating. I honestly don't understand why. After all, lots of people (myself included) completely ignore that CoH has a PvP system and no one thinks that is odd. Incarnates are just one system of the game I don't like and won't mess around with. Yes, my dislike for it is rather intense, but choosing not to take part in a game system one finds unfun is hardly new or strange.

So are we categorizing all content that requires teaming as "hardcore" content now?

No wonder people are so confused.


Teaming =/= hardcore.

Soloing =/= casual.

Actually, the figures I quoted above are that I am getting on average about 16% of Judgment per BAF, and for calculation purposes only assumed 13.3% per BAF, which is right in line with your experiences. I'm assuming you keep all your drops whatever they are, hoard any Empyreans you get, and break down all Astrals to get those progress figures. 4 threads and 3 astrals is 16 threads which can convert into 50k * 16 = 800k iXP. Assuming you get even 8% of Judgment from a really bad BAF, that is still 120k, for a total of 920k iXP, or 61% of Judgment in one run.

What some people aren't fully realizing, and even I did not fully appreciate this fact at the start, is that Astrals are the #1 source of threads from every trial run. You are getting between a dozen and twenty threads just from Astrals, and they fall fast. Astrals all by themselves can unlock Judgment in two good BAF runs with no help from thread drops and direct iXP. When Lore unlocked on my main I decided to immediately craft a rare pet. I had a rare drop and untold uncommons, but no commons and only a few threads left. I basically created all seven commons using astrals all at once. I burned 35 astrals in one buying spree, and still had dozens left over.