Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
I think "that team" is happening on every server, to some degree or other.
I've only been on a couple of Lambdas where we got all of the acids and all of the doors were taken care of immediately. Most of the time, we get all of the acids, but at least 1 or 2 doors remain. Last night it was one. After explaining where to find the power on League chat, it still took us 2 extra chambers destroyed outside before someone who was paying attention got the acid and used it. Either the powers aren't granting consistently, or people just aren't paying attention to League chat. I'm betting on the latter. |
Yep I'll bet on the latter as well. I've been on quite a few Lambdas where we get all 10 Acids and somehow still have 2 doors/portals not blown up and have to get them from the chambers outside... >_<
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
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I think one issue is that some people are confusing power levels with spotlight time. One can want the latter without necessarily wanting to be "uber" and not face any challenges.
The best example I can think of from the source material is Batman. By all accounts, he's "merely" a mortal man with a driving obsession, the training resulting from that, and a considerable private fortune to buy gadgets with. Almost all of his teammates out-power him on a simple brute-force level. But even when he's not pulling Crazy Prepared stunts or power-judo, note that he still gets as much spotlight time as the rest of them - maybe even more.
Some people get into games like this, or the single-person version thereof, not necessarily because they want to juggle planets but because they want to be The Star, or on The Star Team. It's not a power fantasy so much as an importance fantasy. They want to be in the spotlight, alone or sharing it with a few. In an army, or a massive crossover, they're lost in the crowd - and that doesn't satisfy. It can't, because you can't have the efforts of 16+ people hang on whether or not That Guy shows up to save the day and receive the thanks of everyone who would have surely failed without their unique contribution.
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On a Lambda I got repeatedly dropped from due to game crashing last night, I saw the message that I got a grenade, but it wasn't in my powers list or tray. Might have just been coincidental with a crash, might be a bug.
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Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
I think "that team" is happening on every server, to some degree or other.
I've only been on a couple of Lambdas where we got all of the acids and all of the doors were taken care of immediately. Most of the time, we get all of the acids, but at least 1 or 2 doors remain. Last night it was one. After explaining where to find the power on League chat, it still took us 2 extra chambers destroyed outside before someone who was paying attention got the acid and used it. Either the powers aren't granting consistently, or people just aren't paying attention to League chat. I'm betting on the latter. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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lol, I didn't want to be the one to point that out.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
You only have one pair of underwear? No wonder you don't have many friends on your server!
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
You only have one pair of underwear? No wonder you don't have many friends on your server!
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
lol, I didn't want to be the one to point that out.
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He said friends are NOT like underwear and proceeds to explain that he doesn't feel the need to change them every day, like he would underwear.
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Unfortunately, as far as the storyline goes, there isn't supposed to be one 'shining star'; there's a reason that it takes 16+ budding Incarnates to do the job.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
I think one issue is that some people are confusing power levels with spotlight time. One can want the latter without necessarily wanting to be "uber" and not face any challenges.
The best example I can think of from the source material is Batman. By all accounts, he's "merely" a mortal man with a driving obsession, the training resulting from that, and a considerable private fortune to buy gadgets with. Almost all of his teammates out-power him on a simple brute-force level. But even when he's not pulling Crazy Prepared stunts or power-judo, note that he still gets as much spotlight time as the rest of them - maybe even more. Some people get into games like this, or the single-person version thereof, not necessarily because they want to juggle planets but because they want to be The Star, or on The Star Team. It's not a power fantasy so much as an importance fantasy. They want to be in the spotlight, alone or sharing it with a few. In an army, or a massive crossover, they're lost in the crowd - and that doesn't satisfy. It can't, because you can't have the efforts of 16+ people hang on whether or not That Guy shows up to save the day and receive the thanks of everyone who would have surely failed without their unique contribution. |
It's an ego fantasy that can be realized by just getting their goodies and going back into regular play... heck; just taking my Controller from +0/x4 to +0/x6 off of all Tier 2s made me feel pretty amazing...
...but if Billy Badarse thinks he wants to stand out... then by all means; he can go do the trial while the rest of us act as filler and door sit. It already happens in non-Incarnate content; so why not here.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I hope that you do realize that it's only the Lore and Destiny trees that give you the level shift; ie, the upper level of the Physical and Psychic Trees (at least in print).
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Level Shift: I'd put that on the T2 power, myself. T1 is sort of "I have SOMETHING slotted in there," but T2 should definitely be "I have something GOOD slotted in there." T3 is already the "Sweet! Look what I got slotted!" and T4 should be the "I can't believe it's not yoghurt!" power. Gating the level shift behind the T3 power is... Not something I appreciate, as it shifts it from "expected" to "elite" content.
........................ "Level shift tier," no, because the level shift tier is T3, and that I consider to be above and beyond. Getting the level shift itself, however, IS something I consider at least the equivalent of gaining another level. Swapping that to the T2 power would fix that and shut me up right fast. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I can agree with this. Once you're in the queue; the game essentially becomes of little worth until the Trial actually starts.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is where the LFT queue really fails - yes, it queues you for a raid, but it prevents you from doing pretty much any of the game's primary activities, because they're all instanced. If I could sign up for a team, then go run missions solo until one forms in much the same way life first formed on Earth, then I would gladly ditch my mission half-way through and join said team.
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Which is a bad move for a game that up until now has been ALL ABOUT YOU.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Unfortunately, as far as the storyline goes, there isn't supposed to be one 'shining star'; there's a reason that it takes 16+ budding Incarnates to do the job.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I can agree with this. Once you're in the queue; the game essentially becomes of little worth until the Trial actually starts.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I went off to play Backyard Monsters on Facebook while I waited and apparently missed the one minute timer for the invite and had to start over. So now I wait until I have things to store or sell before queuing, but I always run out of things to do before the league starts. It's a drag.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I can agree with this. Once you're in the queue; the game essentially becomes of little worth until the Trial actually starts.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I'm not sure I saw anyone say that. I certainly didn't say that. What I did say was that the rare and ultra rare slots on Destiny and Lore aren't all that useful for people who don't want to run the trial a lot because, in my experience, the mechanical difference on the powers is nice, but not game breakingly good, and the biggest reason to get the rare status is for the incarnate shift.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yes, people have indeed said pretty much that. Or am I missing the point of all the "you don't need the powers if you don't do the trials" and "then don't play, go roll another alt" or "leave then" posts? I don't understand the rationale behind it either, unless they're either afraid that if a reasonable solo option was available nobody would want to play with them, or they're the kind of people who just like to gloat.
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I understand why people want it, but it's not MUST HAVE.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I walked right into that one, didn't I? |
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
You only have one pair of underwear? No wonder you don't have many friends on your server!
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I actually do have more than one friend in real life, but I've never felt the need to count them, and more than anything else, I've never felt the need to look for friends out of pragmatism. Like, "I want to go to bars, so let's make a new friend who goes to bars."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This is pretty much what it comes down to, for me, though I'd call it "face time" more than anything else. It's probably selfish of me to say this, but I play this game for the characters I make, and I want to see them shine in their own right. On a smaller team, this can happen because I may be the only one providing a certain function. Like that TF I ran a while back where I was both the only "tank" and the only "source of damage" on the team, playing a pretty chunky Brute at the time, on a team that was mostly Controllers, Defenders and AFK/lost. I'm not sure I wasn't feeling all self-important at someone else's expense, however.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Some people get into games like this, or the single-person version thereof, not necessarily because they want to juggle planets but because they want to be The Star, or on The Star Team. It's not a power fantasy so much as an importance fantasy. They want to be in the spotlight, alone or sharing it with a few. In an army, or a massive crossover, they're lost in the crowd - and that doesn't satisfy. It can't, because you can't have the efforts of 16+ people hang on whether or not That Guy shows up to save the day and receive the thanks of everyone who would have surely failed without their unique contribution.
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My point here is that it comes down to Spoony's take on RPG protagonists - "Because I'm the hero! This is my story!" - as he goes through other people's stuff looking for potions. And you can't really get that from grunt warfare, at least not with other people who deserve as much face time as you. Call of Duty games, at least the WW2 ones, always managed to take a faceless war scenario and make YOU the protagonist de-facto in them anyway, but those were single player.
Generally speaking, people on smaller teams have a much easier time feeling like, if not THE star, then at least A star, because their role isn't redundant. IF you're the damage dealer, you are THE damage dealer, not damage dealer #17. Big crossover events never worked for me.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Unfortunately, as far as the storyline goes, there isn't supposed to be one 'shining star'; there's a reason that it takes 16+ budding Incarnates to do the job.
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So it's more than a little disheartening to be tossed into the grinder like we are, reduced from a person with a personality and a backstory, into one more warm body in the trenches. There's a reason I stay away from war stories.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I mean level shifts in general, including the one on the Alpha slot. Right now, it's in "you must be this awesome to ride" territory. I'm not opposed to HAVING such territory in the game, as we did even beforehand, but I'd like the level shift to come before that.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I hope that you do realize that it's only the Lore and Destiny trees that give you the level shift; ie, the upper level of the Physical and Psychic Trees (at least in print).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The trials are perfectly doable even without a level shift at all. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I mean level shifts in general, including the one on the Alpha slot. Right now, it's in "you must be this awesome to ride" territory. I'm not opposed to HAVING such territory in the game, as we did even beforehand, but I'd like the level shift to come before that.
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I haven't failed a BAF run yet, and I've only failed one Lambda (granted, I've only run 2)
I wasn't level shifted until the last BAF I ran, and I was doing just fine without it. All the level shift does is make it a little easier.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Which isn't what I said, but I'm OK with being that guy who's famous for saying things he never actually said.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The trials are perfectly doable even without a level shift at all.
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I consider Common and Uncommon Incarnate abilities to be the bread and butter of the Incarnate system, with Rares being "special" and Very Rares being exclusive. As such, I prefer to put the level shift on the far end of the bread and butter of the system, rather than treating it as a reward for the more exclusive portion of it.
In short, let people have their level shifts earlier, but keep the awesomeness of the actual powers where they are.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Except the Rares aren't really that hard to acquire. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which isn't what I said, but I'm OK with being that guy who's famous for saying things he never actually said.
I consider Common and Uncommon Incarnate abilities to be the bread and butter of the Incarnate system, with Rares being "special" and Very Rares being exclusive. As such, I prefer to put the level shift on the far end of the bread and butter of the system, rather than treating it as a reward for the more exclusive portion of it. In short, let people have their level shifts earlier, but keep the awesomeness of the actual powers where they are. |
I'm already one rare component from having the Rare of both Judgement and Interface.
I already have the common slot for Lore (even though I don't have Lore unlocked yet)
And that is over maybe 8 runs spaced out throughout the week. By the end of next week I expect to have at least one of the Incarnate Shifts and be fairly close to the second. And that's without grinding out 8 or 9 runs per day. I haven't done more than 2 in a given day.
I'm just glad the level shift comes with the Rare and it's not a Very Rare exclusive thing.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I think the fears of teams demanding that "all y'all must be +3" are a bit unfounded. The only time I've YET seen anyone bring this up as a point of concern is when trying for a couple of the harder badges when working towards the Master of... badges.
Granted, I've not seen anyone try for the collecting then refusing to use acid or the grenade badges on the Lambda. (I assume like Keep em Separated and Strong and Pretty, both these badges are best done on separate runs.) These two badges may require--or at least be more doable with 8 or so +3's and with a MAJORITY of the league having at least tier 2 judgement.
But with so many people, just like a level 37 coming along on a quick ITF with a bunch of 50's, being a vanilla 50 is totally doable on these trials. And I've YET to see any objections. But if you are that vanilla 50, just be prepared to be a bit in the background. You won't be tanking Marauder's army and you shouldn't be pulling Siege in the same way that that level 37 character would go in second on the major fights on an ITF.
The good players--the experienced ones who are organizing many of the trials and leading them (at least on my home server)--seem to get this for the most part. There is no sign of a tone of exclusivity at this point. I'm on a smaller population server. And we sometimes have 3 trials running from pocket D at any given time--BAFs even during primetime. But just the same, leaders seem happy to get whatever warm bodies they can. As long as people are willing to listen and follow instructions from the trial leader regarding the key aspects of the trial (like using your acid power if you got one during the Lambda or being with your team in the right spot for the runner phase of the BAF).
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Rare Incarnate powers are about as "hard" to acquire as rare Inventions, which is to say "not very." But that's not the point. They're still rare, and they're still one step beyond the mdeian. After all, the Rare Alpha Incarnate powers require a NotW, whereas the Uncommon ones do not. To my eyes, that's a clear separator between those who want "just enough" and those who want the good stuff.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Except the Rares aren't really that hard to acquire.
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Look at it from my perspective - I don't use Inventions Sets (one Steadfast Protection notwithstanding) because I consider them to be too much of a bother. And for the most part, I accept that my characters are weaker for it. However, I can still earn my "levels" independent of said sets. That's all I want to see with Incarnates, myself.
The powers I can live with not having the best of, but the level shifts strike me as integral to the system's feel of progress. I merely feel they should be available before the rarity divide.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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man heroes team up in big groups all the time to take on huge threats, this is one of those times. it doesnt make the heroes any less.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And, to me, is the hallmark of a bad story. And I say "bad" because it's the kind of storytelling that might work in a "hero with no name" RPG like Diablo or Dungeon Siege, where you're either a wanderer or just one more peasant with a sword. In these games, yeah, you can slap a hundred people together because characters are basically interchangeable moulds over which to hang your gear. Not so in City of Heroes. Well, at least it wasn't always so. This is one of the few games where NPCs actually address us by name, have you noticed? This is one of the few games where we're asked to create a backstory and a pretty final look right out the gate. Here, we're expected to have a backstory, and who we are matters. So it's more than a little disheartening to be tossed into the grinder like we are, reduced from a person with a personality and a backstory, into one more warm body in the trenches. There's a reason I stay away from war stories. |
besides, i dunno how YOU play but when i play im always a friggin' star. my dark armor/fire tank leads charges, takes it on the chin for the little guys, and does a ton of heavy lifting for the team. my demon/pain mastermind makes minion sacrifices for the good of the team to keep everyone goin' and saves the day by healin' tanks and blasters.
shoot even when i raided in wow my shaman was a star, either healing or dpsing. most interrupts and highest dps/over damage per fight? hell yeah that's me bein' a superstar. use some imagination and now youve got a cool story about your character making a difference in taking down the lich king or something
you gotta see yourself as a star in ways other than I AM THE CENTRAL FOCUS OF THE STORY AT ALL TIMES, makes life easier and makes the game way fun
Folding@Home
Photoshop doesn't make a good artist.
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Posts like this make me wonder what exactly people expect out of a game like this.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Which is a bad move for a game that up until now has been ALL ABOUT YOU.
Hey, I went to the Storm Palace. Never did find those 54s I was looking for....what happened to all the 54s? But it was pretty and I killed stuff. Then after an hour or more I gave up and joined a pre-made. It was a massive lagfest, as expected, but hey, I completed a Lambda. Tomorrow I'll probably be doing Sutter's TF, and then I will have breezed past all of i20's content in a week. What was the rationale for not raising the level cap again? |
90% of all the complaints I see can be reduced to people being pissed because they're not having their ego stroked enough or having ridiculous over the top expectations.
If you're expecting every issue to bring a 40 hour long solo centric story arc tailored around your character you're bound to end up dissapointed.
You're also playing the wrong type of game.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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And I happen to detest these stories every time they crop up. The "crossover event" is easily one of my least favourite storytelling devices, and considering how many things I hate, that's saying something.|
Originally Posted by Valgrisk
man heroes team up in big groups all the time to take on huge threats, this is one of those times. it doesnt make the heroes any less.
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besides, i dunno how YOU play but when i play im always a friggin' star. my dark armor/fire tank leads charges, takes it on the chin for the little guys, and does a ton of heavy lifting for the team. my demon/pain mastermind makes minion sacrifices for the good of the team to keep everyone goin' and saves the day by healin' tanks and blasters. shoot even when i raided in wow my shaman was a star, either healing or dpsing. most interrupts and highest dps/over damage per fight? hell yeah that's me bein' a superstar. use some imagination and now youve got a cool story about your character making a difference in taking down the lich king or something |
When I team with friends of mine, most of the time it's me on a high-level character with a low-level character SK. You'd think this would make me feel like the big hero against the backgrop of a much weaker character, but instead it just makes me feel bad for my team-mate. In part because I've been there and I know how it feels, in part because said team-mate often comments that "Yeah, but you kill them before I have chance to get my debuffs out" or, the other day "I can't even target them!" This doesn't make me feel like a hero. It makes me feel like a bully, like I'm taking advantage of another person.
Long story short - I want to feel super and special and like the hero of the story, but NOT at the expense of other people. We all paid for this game, we all have an equal right to be "the one," ideally all at the same time. It sounds like a conundrum, but it doesn't have to be one.
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| you gotta see yourself as a star in ways other than I AM THE CENTRAL FOCUS OF THE STORY AT ALL TIMES, makes life easier and makes the game way fun |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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if you're that dead set on being unhappy with this im not gonna stop you man, i mean, really.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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gotta lol @ being the star = competing with people/stomping things so hard no one else can do anything. you can be awesome working with people, that's the point. both of my examples were about working with people
and yeah, 24 people can have their chance to shine; whether or not they take it is up to the individual.
but seriously, if you just want to be mopey about this whole thing im not gonna stop you. have fun. or not i guess.
Folding@Home
Photoshop doesn't make a good artist.
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You had me fooled that you had an actual argument there for a second. Lesson learned.
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Originally Posted by Valgrisk
if you're that dead set on being unhappy with this im not gonna stop you man, i mean, really.
but seriously, if you just want to be mopey about this whole thing im not gonna stop you. have fun. or not i guess. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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