Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Maybe the fact that I actually took the time to make a reasoned argument which was met with "lol its your fault lol" perhaps? I had the mistaken impression that Valgrisk was genuinely interested in an argument on the subject, when he was clearly interested in telling me how much I'm wrong. I know, stupid me. Why do I let that surprise me any more.|
Originally Posted by Furio
What argument is there to be made? You dislike something that is pretty much inherent in both the MMO genre and the Superhero Universe genre. Sometimes, it's about one hero, but other times, it's about the team, and sometimes it's about ALL the teams.
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Because, after all, MMOs can never make us feel like the protagonist of the show like City of Heroes story arcs do, no sir! And, as we all know, City of Heroes was most certainly not an MMO before it got end game, so that statement remains true - no MMO can make any one single player feel special without doing so at the expense of other people on the team. That'd be just silly.
After all, what did I expect? That people would care to actually read what I wrote and make a reasoned argument based on how it relates to game precedent and personal opinion? Yes, I clearly have a lot to learn. Why bother with such a thing when you can just handwave another person's argument AOL speak and basically laugh in his face. That's so much easier and takes so much less effort to put together. Why can't I ever think to do something like that, myself?
See, even now that I'm writing unnecessary snark and needless sarcasm, I can't keep myself from looking for an actual argument to tie into my mess of a post. Why can't I simply respond with a Golden Girl one-liner? It'd be just as insulting to people's intelligence while requiring far less work.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Maybe the fact that I actually took the time to make a reasoned argument which was met with "lol its your fault lol" perhaps? I had the mistaken impression that Valgrisk was genuinely interested in an argument on the subject, when he was clearly interested in telling me how much I'm wrong. I know, stupid me. Why do I let that surprise me any more.
Because, after all, MMOs can never make us feel like the protagonist of the show like City of Heroes story arcs do, no sir! And, as we all know, City of Heroes was most certainly not an MMO before it got end game, so that statement remains true - no MMO can make any one single player feel special without doing so at the expense of other people on the team. That'd be just silly. After all, what did I expect? That people would care to actually read what I wrote and make a reasoned argument based on how it relates to game precedent and personal opinion? Yes, I clearly have a lot to learn. Why bother with such a thing when you can just handwave another person's argument AOL speak and basically laugh in his face. That's so much easier and takes so much less effort to put together. Why can't I ever think to do something like that, myself? See, even now that I'm writing unnecessary snark and needless sarcasm, I can't keep myself from looking for an actual argument to tie into my mess of a post. Why can't I simply respond with a Golden Girl one-liner? It'd be just as insulting to people's intelligence while requiring far less work. |
Your needless snark and sarcasm aside, you'll note my use of the term "sometimes". In an MMO *sometimes* individual glory takes a backseat to the team. Just like *any* human endeavor that involves more than one person. Sure, I could try to take that game winning shot at the buzzer from 10 feet behind the 3 point line with a defender in my face..I make that shot, and I'm awesome!...but there's my open teammate who's 15 ft closer. An assist that gets us a tie is better than my game-winner getting blocked.
Personally, when I'm on a team, I feel special when *we* win, because I know I had a part in that. And my main is mechanically one of the most replaceable components of any team he's on.
Either you're the type that groks that, or you're not. There's no argument that can be made to convince someone of it..it's something that one has to experience and understand on their own.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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This is also an MMO and the unfortunate thing about MMOs is that at some point, you will become rank and file because it is impossible for the game to address every player on a personal basis in every fashion at all times.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is pretty much what it comes down to, for me, though I'd call it "face time" more than anything else. It's probably selfish of me to say this, but I play this game for the characters I make, and I want to see them shine in their own right. On a smaller team, this can happen because I may be the only one providing a certain function. Like that TF I ran a while back where I was both the only "tank" and the only "source of damage" on the team, playing a pretty chunky Brute at the time, on a team that was mostly Controllers, Defenders and AFK/lost. I'm not sure I wasn't feeling all self-important at someone else's expense, however.
My point here is that it comes down to Spoony's take on RPG protagonists - "Because I'm the hero! This is my story!" - as he goes through other people's stuff looking for potions. And you can't really get that from grunt warfare, at least not with other people who deserve as much face time as you. Call of Duty games, at least the WW2 ones, always managed to take a faceless war scenario and make YOU the protagonist de-facto in them anyway, but those were single player. Generally speaking, people on smaller teams have a much easier time feeling like, if not THE star, then at least A star, because their role isn't redundant. IF you're the damage dealer, you are THE damage dealer, not damage dealer #17. Big crossover events never worked for me. And, to me, is the hallmark of a bad story. And I say "bad" because it's the kind of storytelling that might work in a "hero with no name" RPG like Diablo or Dungeon Siege, where you're either a wanderer or just one more peasant with a sword. In these games, yeah, you can slap a hundred people together because characters are basically interchangeable moulds over which to hang your gear. Not so in City of Heroes. Well, at least it wasn't always so. This is one of the few games where NPCs actually address us by name, have you noticed? This is one of the few games where we're asked to create a backstory and a pretty final look right out the gate. Here, we're expected to have a backstory, and who we are matters. So it's more than a little disheartening to be tossed into the grinder like we are, reduced from a person with a personality and a backstory, into one more warm body in the trenches. There's a reason I stay away from war stories. |
Solo content; sure... that's the most logical place for one to get their face time.
Team content; sometimes... but you have up to 8 people that all want to be the star; which one is the game supposed to cater to... which role gets to have the spotlight.
Large team content; this is 'put-your-egos-aside-and-lets-save-the-world' stuff; it makes sense that trying to be MJ might get one face-planted more than a person would like. It also makes sense, like in a real war, that you would have to do something extraordinary; above and beyond, to get any kind of recognition and that that recognition should (more often than not) come from the one mechanic than can adjust to erratic bursts of 'Im the man! -isms'; other players.
I've, primarily, been using my Plant/Storm controller in the trials - a toon that's not likely to get kill kudos around a bunch of tanks and brutes; or heal kudos or much of anything but the trials do break down enough where the opportunity to garner notice from your teammates becomes more probable.
The stop the prisoner portion of the BAF, as well as 'taunting' the AVs to the ambush spot and stopping the adds.
As well as the hunt phase of Lambda, Lambda, Lambda.
(Even breaking up your league into smaller group to cover more ground can create those opportunities)
*I got my shining moment helping to stop the Mindwashed; a teammate liked how I played my Plant and said he would have to reconsider how he felt about them in general.*
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Yeah, I don't dispute the truth of that fact, and it's a situation I can accept, provided there are options and alternatives. As I said before, it's easy to get the "my story" feeling solo, and it's quite doable to achieve that on a small-ish team. It's when you get into large teams and multi-team encounters that this breaks down, and I don't really think there's anyway to avoid that.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
This is also an MMO and the unfortunate thing about MMOs is that at some point, you will become rank and file because it is impossible for the game to address every player on a personal basis in every fashion at all times.
Solo content; sure... that's the most logical place for one to get their face time. Team content; sometimes... but you have up to 8 people that all want to be the star; which one is the game supposed to cater to... which role gets to have the spotlight. Large team content; this is 'put-your-egos-aside-and-lets-save-the-world' stuff; it makes sense that trying to be MJ might get one face-planted more than a person would like. It also makes sense, like in a real war, that you would have to do something extraordinary; above and beyond, to get any kind of recognition and that that recognition should (more often than not) come from the one mechanic than can adjust to erratic bursts of 'Im the man! -isms'; other players. |
That's why I'm not suggesting we avoid it, so much as supplement it. I'm often seen as arguing for soloable story arcs because I'm an anti-social ****. While that may be true, this isn't why I argue for them. I simply recognise that multi-group content isn't the place to look for personal glory. However, I don't want to argue for removing it, as that would be stupid. So instead, I ask for an alternative that's perhaps somewhat less "epic" (for the "large-scale event" definition of the word), but a lot more personal than open warfare. It shouldn't take away from the zeal of fighting in a giant conflict. It should instead supplement the experience with a more personal focus that we can more easily pretend is our own little spotlight.
I think I spoke about it upthread, but even just one Incarnate story arc per Incarnate Trial would be enough to keep me off the forums, and enough to keep my suspension of disbelief strong and lasting.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In a team book, it's about the individual members coming together as part of the team. Do you really think anyone would care about the Justice League if it was all D-listers, with no character development beyond "these guys all fought this bad guy?"|
Originally Posted by Furio
What argument is there to be made? You dislike something that is pretty much inherent in both the MMO genre and the Superhero Universe genre. Sometimes, it's about one hero, but other times, it's about the team, and sometimes it's about ALL the teams.
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When it's about ALL the teams, it's really not. It's about the event. That's what we're getting here. It's not about us anymore, it's about the Praetorian invasion and about Cole. If it was a comic book, that might work, because sometimes people want to read about the villain (albeit a more interesting one than Cole), but in an MMO that is so character-focused, not so much.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Okay. The level shift IS the "good stuff". The "good stuff" requires you to do more to acquire it. That is true across anything else in this game, and it is true across pretty much every video game ever programmed that has any kind of earnable rewards. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Rare Incarnate powers are about as "hard" to acquire as rare Inventions, which is to say "not very." But that's not the point. They're still rare, and they're still one step beyond the mdeian. After all, the Rare Alpha Incarnate powers require a NotW, whereas the Uncommon ones do not. To my eyes, that's a clear separator between those who want "just enough" and those who want the good stuff.
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For most of my characters, and I would wager probably a large percentage of the characters in the game, the level shift is the ONLY reason to bother progressing past the Uncommon level in your Alpha slot. Unless you're the type that would do it just so you can say "look what I have!" (probably doesn't apply to you, but it does apply to others)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Then think of this as our secret wars, extinction agenda, civil war or whatever other publisher multibook "event" analogue you want.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
In a team book, it's about the individual members coming together as part of the team. Do you really think anyone would care about the Justice League if it was all D-listers, with no character development beyond "these guys all fought this bad guy?"
When it's about ALL the teams, it's really not. It's about the event. That's what we're getting here. It's not about us anymore, it's about the Praetorian invasion and about Cole. If it was a comic book, that might work, because sometimes people want to read about the villain (albeit a more interesting one than Cole), but in an MMO that is so character-focused, not so much. |
The truth of it is, as someone said either in this thread, if you want some of the shinies, put on a helmet, grab your favorite super dooper super, do the trials about 10 times each and at least get some interface and judgement.
Then you can go back to soloing or running AE arcs that fit your tastes with a few things in your pocket that make your most amazing character all that more amazing. Similar to a few characters coming back from Secret Wars changed perhaps forever.
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I have one character that is in the same thread as Superman, She-Hulk and Wonder Woman. I want her to be big and bad enough to solo a few more things, like AVs and some of the zone GMs, than she currently can. So I'm shooting for that tier 4 diamagnetic interface enhancement that nets her the 100% regeneration proc which as I understand it can be stacked in applications to reduce any single enemy's regen up to 60%. Pretty key if I want to solo a few of the big bad things I'd expect to see her fighting on the cover of her comic!
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
For most of my characters, and I would wager probably a large percentage of the characters in the game, the level shift is the ONLY reason to bother progressing past the Uncommon level in your Alpha slot. Unless you're the type that would do it just so you can say "look what I have!" (probably doesn't apply to you, but it does apply to others)
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The reason I say this is I equate level shifts with levelling. I know that they're not, you don't have to correct me. But, as you said, we're in it for the level shifts. And levelling in the rest of the game isn't considered "the good stuff." It's considered the stuff everyone is supposed to be doing.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay. The level shift IS the "good stuff". The "good stuff" requires you to do more to acquire it. That is true across anything else in this game, and it is true across pretty much every video game ever programmed that has any kind of earnable rewards.
For most of my characters, and I would wager probably a large percentage of the characters in the game, the level shift is the ONLY reason to bother progressing past the Uncommon level in your Alpha slot. Unless you're the type that would do it just so you can say "look what I have!" (probably doesn't apply to you, but it does apply to others) |
If the worry is that no-one would bother going past Uncommon without appropriate bait - and I can see that as a legitimate concern, mind you - then I will have resurrect my old Hamidon argument. If people cannot be expected to bother with a task or an achievement, then just tossing in a larger reward is not the right solution to it. If people are unwilling to bother past Uncommon if not for the level shift, then I dare say the powers themselves aren't good enough. Either that, or they're too much of a bother to achieve.
And that's not me fabricating things, either. That's me going off your argument. If people would not bother with Rare and Very Rare Incarnates were it not for the level shift, there's a bigger problem with the whole structure than just where you put said level shifts.
*edit*
But if the level shifts are determined to stay as exclusive content, then that just means I'll have have to do without them, in much the same way I've done without Set Inventions. Pity.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Really?|
Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
My 10 year old was watching me play tonight. I was in a pug Lamda. He asked why there were so many heroes needed, when all the other stuff was for a single team (I don't do Hami raids cause I am not usually on when they are going). I thought about my answer for a while, and told him, that this isn't your normal Save the World action. This is war. Wars aren't fought with just teams of 8.
Do I agree that it would be nice to have another method of getting incarnate goodies? Yes, that would be nice. Will it happen? It just might. Cause our Devs rock. |
Please be aware that there will be a publish for all live servers on Tuesday, April 12, 2011 starting at 4:00 a.m. Pacific / 7:00 a.m. Eastern for a scheduled end at 6:00 a.m. Pacific / 9:00 a.m. Eastern.
(looks at clock)
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I think newer players will feel more of what you're looking for (or newer toons) because solo content that deals with both the Praetorian Invasion and Incarnates (which are kind of one and the same... at this point) is available; mostly at lower levels through Vincent Ross, Ramiel, Mortimer Kai (and to some extent, the Morality Missions and even the RWZ (up until you get all of the Alpha T4s that you want - VMerit build up)).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yeah, I don't dispute the truth of that fact, and it's a situation I can accept, provided there are options and alternatives. As I said before, it's easy to get the "my story" feeling solo, and it's quite doable to achieve that on a small-ish team. It's when you get into large teams and multi-team encounters that this breaks down, and I don't really think there's anyway to avoid that.
That's why I'm not suggesting we avoid it, so much as supplement it. I'm often seen as arguing for soloable story arcs because I'm an anti-social ****. While that may be true, this isn't why I argue for them. I simply recognise that multi-group content isn't the place to look for personal glory. However, I don't want to argue for removing it, as that would be stupid. So instead, I ask for an alternative that's perhaps somewhat less "epic" (for the "large-scale event" definition of the word), but a lot more personal than open warfare. It shouldn't take away from the zeal of fighting in a giant conflict. It should instead supplement the experience with a more personal focus that we can more easily pretend is our own little spotlight. I think I spoke about it upthread, but even just one Incarnate story arc per Incarnate Trial would be enough to keep me off the forums, and enough to keep my suspension of disbelief strong and lasting. |
I think the perspective needs to zoom out a bit to see beyond 'Incarnate content only at 50' scope.
Now, for those players/toons that are taking Cole's side in this... I feel bad for their content (Incarnate or otherwise) at all level ranges beyond level 21. They are the official step-children and casualties of this content.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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The perfect analogue to a team comic going through this would be a, well, a really tight RP superteam. They handle all their character development, and the devs are just there to throw mechanical challenges at them with a bit of story. It's not really fair to expect any more from the them than that for a couple of one-shot events. (yes i know we're repeating them ad infinitum atm, but they're just parts of the overall story...tie-ins to the crossover, if you will) How one feels about Cole or the story itself is subjective...I'm sure there are people that would be equally displeased with a Darkseid or a Thanos.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
In a team book, it's about the individual members coming together as part of the team. Do you really think anyone would care about the Justice League if it was all D-listers, with no character development beyond "these guys all fought this bad guy?"
When it's about ALL the teams, it's really not. It's about the event. That's what we're getting here. It's not about us anymore, it's about the Praetorian invasion and about Cole. If it was a comic book, that might work, because sometimes people want to read about the villain (albeit a more interesting one than Cole), but in an MMO that is so character-focused, not so much. |
I dunno...my main point is that you don't look to the crossover event for the character development. That's all done in the regular series. The events are about the events, and in that situation, maybe you turn down you "i'm a unique snowflake" dial a bit, and join the team for the big win
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I don't disagree with this. I just want to see more/any "regular issues" that deal with the post-50 game. It would be very depressing to think that there will be no "regular" content post level 50. That alone is enough to kill my enthusiasm. And I'm not saying I want... And I'm not saying I expect this to happen INSTEAD of multi-team Incarnate Trials, but more that I want to see it IN ADDITION to them.|
Originally Posted by Furio
I dunno...my main point is that you don't look to the crossover event for the character development. That's all done in the regular series. The events are about the events, and in that situation, maybe you turn down you "i'm a unique snowflake" dial a bit, and join the team for the big win
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And, yes, I do look to the Incarnate system post 50, because it's a new quasi-level-range, at least in how it's defined by its mechanics.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Again, I don't really see anyone disagreeing with this. I support it. I just think everyone should be aware that we're still really really really early in to the new content and the devs probably have to do their fair share of feeling the new content out. I don't see them abandoning smaller team content, but the powers themselves are scaled up to larger team content too. Any new stuff is likely going to be balanced with that mind, while making it not impossible for those to do without the new powers. It's a hard line to walk, and if they make everything locked at level 54, a lot of people are going to have a lot of trouble without the level shifts. So, it's a hard line to walk.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't disagree with this. I just want to see more/any "regular issues" that deal with the post-50 game. It would be very depressing to think that there will be no "regular" content post level 50. That alone is enough to kill my enthusiasm. And I'm not saying I want... And I'm not saying I expect this to happen INSTEAD of multi-team Incarnate Trials, but more that I want to see it IN ADDITION to them.
And, yes, I do look to the Incarnate system post 50, because it's a new quasi-level-range, at least in how it's defined by its mechanics. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
I live way out in the country. I have limited gamming abilities through my "available" internet services and multi purpose computer systems. I do not play on large teams or even attempt certain events or TF's because of these limitations.
I have been TP'd about the Lady Grey TF just for the badge, and am able to muddle my way through the high contrast mission maps well enough to complete them, if I'm solo. I am highly allergic to all masterminds, (As soon as we enter the door I'll be off team.) invasions, warship raids, and Hamidon as well as all multi team events. These are the things of dreams.
I will most likely never slot the incarnate powers and I'm ok with that. CoH offers a little bit of everything for everybody. The entire system limits the abilities of all players in some fashion. Tons of game content is set up specifically for team play. (Hard for a solo to "simultaneously" click 4 of anything.)
Multi team content is just another limitation for me, and where some say they're paying for content they can't use, that's life. We all own tennis shoes. We're not all olympic athletes. I do not think there are many things the average person purchases that they can say they used all the available content that was paid for, and this is, after all, an upgrade. It's not costing us any more now, to be really awesome, then it did when just standing around being a 50 was awesome.
Use the content that's right for you. Others will us what's right for them.
Between the hours I'm on and the hardware I have to work with I solo a lot. It's made me a great little blaster. (Not that anyone will ever know.) I'm set to +2x2, I think that's pretty good for a solo squishy, and when I have to get help it really sucks because once I'm teamed I'm virtually incapable of doing anything but logging out and logging in.
But don't get me wrong I like to team when I can. I do however find it increasingly difficult to find a good team among the monsters AE and Power Leveling have created. Strategy is in way short supply here and while I do enjoy the random killing sprees from time to time, there are an awful lot of players who drop at the first sign of diffuculty. Not really a fan of putting in the time on a TF and having everybody throw in the towel as soon as they get to the AV and break a nail.
I agree that sometimes it's just not going to happen, but most the time it just takes a little organization, patients, and (Dare I say it?) teamwork.
We can't all be "The Best" and we shouldn't. The initial incarnate mission was fun, taking out all the AV's feeling all awesome and powerful, for the first 20 seconds. Then it was just lame. I don't want to be all powerful. There was no fun in that, but that doesn't mean I don't want anybody else to be.
"If we're all awesome them awesome becomes average", and what do you do after that?
Adding Multi-group content opens CoH up to a broader spectrum of potential customers, and even though I will likely never be able to experience the content myself, I still feel it was a necessary move that shows CoH is continually expanding and experimenting in the highly competitive world of MMORPG. That translates to me being able to play CoH for many more years to come.
As far as the whole "my character doesn't feel special in multiple team content" argument goes: How do you define feeling special?
It's not a matter of the game making you feel special. The game doesn't make you feel special in single team content. The game will not acknowledge that your tank pulled the agro off a controller and saved his butt. The game will not recognize that your empath brought the blaster back from the brink of death. The game is not capable of recognizing those things, it is at it's core a collection of numbers and calculations.
It's not a matter of YOU knowing what you did either. If that's all that was important it wouldn't matter a bit if you were by yourself or had 47 other people with you. You would know what you did regardless. If it were about YOU knowing what you did, why would you care if no one else noticed?
What it's really about is getting the praise and recognition of other players. When your tank saves the controllers butt, the controller recognizes that you did that. When your empath brings the blaster back from the brink of death, the blaster is appreciative.
In multiple team content like the trials, no one is saying "good tanking" or "Thanks for the heal", because they're too busy with what they're doing to type it out. That denies you the attention you crave, which is what it's really all about here. Other players' reactions are really the only means of feeling "special" that you can't have just as easily solo.
Multiple team content isn't bad for the game.....it's just bad for your ego, because no one is patting you on the back saying "Way to go!"
The people who are okay with multiple team content are aware that they don't have to feel special while they are doing something this large scale. You win or lose as a TEAM....there isn't room for egos in something like that.
(Edit: All uses of the word "you" in this post were meant as a general "you" and were not directed at any one specific person.)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Sometimes, Sam (and I really do mean this in the nicest possible way), I think you should just stick to single-player games. That way you always get to be The Guy, without it being at anyone else's expense. This game/genre is never going to satisfy that need/desire of yours the way that kind can, because it has to allow for all those other people.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I'm glad you got the joke and had a decent sense of humor about it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I walked right into that one, didn't I?
I actually do have more than one friend in real life, but I've never felt the need to count them, and more than anything else, I've never felt the need to look for friends out of pragmatism. Like, "I want to go to bars, so let's make a new friend who goes to bars." |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Can't agree more. I think all the talk about big team endeavours taking away the feeling of being special is just simply childish. What? You need to feel special by having someone compliment you? |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's not a matter of YOU knowing what you did either. If that's all that was important it wouldn't matter a bit if you were by yourself or had 47 other people with you. You would know what you did regardless. If it were about YOU knowing what you did, why would you care if no one else noticed?
What it's really about is getting the praise and recognition of other players. When your tank saves the controllers butt, the controller recognizes that you did that. When your empath brings the blaster back from the brink of death, the blaster is appreciative. In multiple team content like the trials, no one is saying "good tanking" or "Thanks for the heal", because they're too busy with what they're doing to type it out. That denies you the attention you crave, which is what it's really all about here. Other players' reactions are really the only means of feeling "special" that you can't have just as easily solo. Multiple team content isn't bad for the game.....it's just bad for your ego, because no one is patting you on the back saying "Way to go!" The people who are okay with multiple team content are aware that they don't have to feel special while they are doing something this large scale. You win or lose as a TEAM....there isn't room for egos in something like that. (Edit: All uses of the word "you" in this post were meant as a general "you" and were not directed at any one specific person.) |
Everyone has a role to play in the trials, especially Lambda. Everyone needs to know what to do and when to activate a temp power. Play your role, and the trial is a success. Screw it up, and everyone loses. I don't need someone to pat me on my back to feel satisfied that I had a part to play in the team's success.
Even BAF, in the escaping prisoners phase, everyone has to use every trick he can pull off to succeed, especially if you're going for the badge.
For example, we were in the sabotage phase of Lambda. The acid team suddenly had many people crash, including me. The other team made good progress but we were falling behind as folks hurried to get back in. The clock was counting down. I entered the room, and someone was holding off the mobs around a container. I joined in and helped to take it down, earning us a bit more time for others to get back in and take down more. It was a close shave and everyone in the acid team had a part to play in that. I don't need someone to praise me. We pulled it off, and that's the important thing.
Put down that ego, and learn to appreciate the knowledge that you've performed your assigned role.
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I'd opt for more content that's for levels "40 through 50+" rather than just post-50 content. I really don't care if they mention Incarnates or not in it-- preferrably not, so I can reasonably write in my own character's story and ignore the Incarnate mindset. Just give me something new to do when nearing/at the level cap that doesn't require teaming.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Again, I don't really see anyone disagreeing with this. I support it. I just think everyone should be aware that we're still really really really early in to the new content and the devs probably have to do their fair share of feeling the new content out. I don't see them abandoning smaller team content, but the powers themselves are scaled up to larger team content too. Any new stuff is likely going to be balanced with that mind, while making it not impossible for those to do without the new powers. It's a hard line to walk, and if they make everything locked at level 54, a lot of people are going to have a lot of trouble without the level shifts. So, it's a hard line to walk.
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I will grant that Issue 20 was team-heavy content -- two task forces and two multi-team trials. But what have we had right before that?
Issue 18/Going Rogue was probably the most solo-centric issue ever. You had to choose missions that defined your moral compass. While you could certainly team (except for the last mission) you missed out on a ton of Praetorian content if you did. And the tip missions could be soloed just as easy (if not easier and quicker) than running with a team.
That was followed by I19, which was delayed in order to add the Ramiel arc and Apex/Tin Mage.
I understand that some people prefer dinner parties to loud bars, and that Woodstock-like concerts are simply intolerable for them. I happen to like all three in measured doses.
I was soloing a lot before I19 and I was getting a little burned out on the game. But since I19, I have been almost exclusively running in teams doing trials and TFs, getting tons of merits, shards, threads, and other drops. And I have enjoyed every minute of it. It's the most fun I've had since Issue 6/City of Villains.
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That's a bit of an oversimplification. In between "will do *only* for the rewards" and "will do even without any rewards" is where most good games are designed, with balanced rewards.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If the worry is that no-one would bother going past Uncommon without appropriate bait - and I can see that as a legitimate concern, mind you - then I will have resurrect my old Hamidon argument. If people cannot be expected to bother with a task or an achievement, then just tossing in a larger reward is not the right solution to it. If people are unwilling to bother past Uncommon if not for the level shift, then I dare say the powers themselves aren't good enough. Either that, or they're too much of a bother to achieve.
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I don't know what everyone else is saying, but *I* say that the level shift is in just about the right place (with one exception I will get to in a minute). Its the culmination of the common-uncommon-rare power progression tree for the slots that have it. Very rare is not a standard part of that progression tree: its a pursuit reward that has four times the cost and only one quarter more reward: perfect for players that want high-end pursuit goals, and a reasonable compromise to players unable or unwilling to pursue high-end pursuit goals.
Its in the right place, but why have it at all? Because Incarnate content is designed with it in mind: Incarnate content is +4 like the LRSF, but unlike the LRSF player can work their way towards neutralizing much of the combat level advantage the critters have. They can progress against the content to make it easier This ability to work towards gaining a relative advantage over presumptively difficult content didn't exist in a meaningful sense when the LRSF came out, and level shift was almost certainly invented to address that specific situation (I cannot say this with 100% certainty, but the fact that I suggested level shift as a mechanic way back when LRSF came out specifically to address this issue, and level shift appears to be designed explicitly to address this issue, is something I assume is not a coincidence: either they remembered, or its coincidental reinvention).
Level shift wasn't invented to be bait: it was invented to be an integral part of power progression verses the Incarnate content. They didn't need to invent it: they could have just made the other incarnate features more powerful. But that is a far more difficult thing to balance: combat level shift is trivially easy to predict the effects of. Finding the correct strength for a barrier buff to have to equal the advantage of a combat level shift, or the correct design of a set of pets, would be a seriously complex undertaking. And keep in mind that's coming from me, who once said rebalancing all PvE powers for PvP was not a complex problem.
Given that level shift was going to be part of the Incarnate progress tree specifically to act as part of the power progress the players could work towards to improve their power relative to the Incarnate content, where should it have gone? It should be the end result of a progressional path, which suggests Very Rare. But if we reserve Very Rare for a long-term pursuit goal, it cannot be there because the level shift isn't intended to be tied to a long-term pursuit goal: its intended to be earned and then used in the trials, not the other way around (the reward for running the trials numerous times and mastering them). So Rare makes more sense.
And here is where I diverge from the devs. If the intent is for players to be able to earn them so that they can use them to make the trials easier, they *should* have been in Judgment and Interface, not Destiny and Lore. Gaining them as tier 3 in Judgment and Interface would be earning them in the first half of your progress through those four slots. gaining them as tier 3 in the Lore and Destiny slots means you're earning them close to mastering all four slots, not counting the long-term Very Rare pursuit powers. And that is backwards relative to intent, if the intent is to allow players to earn these to make the trials easier.
I think they made a mistake and knew enough to make level shift a tier 3 and not tier 4 reward, but didn't go far enough and make them part of the first slot of the two-slot physical and psychic trees.
In either case, since level shift is *part* of the powers, you can't say if the powers aren't good enough with level shift they aren't good enough without level shift. That's like saying if Nova is not good enough without the damage and only with the knockback, then Nova is just not good enough period. The Incarnate powers with level shift were designed with shift in mind. Blizzard doesn't do damage just to bribe people to take an otherwise expensive knockdown patch that is not worth its endurance costs. The damage is not a bribe, its part of what it is. Incarnate shift is part of what those powers are, and the devs expect the players to make a value judgment on whether to take those powers factoring in the benefits of incarnate shift (or level shift in the case of Alpha) The fact that the benefits of incarnate shift itself only accrue in Incarnate trials is irrelevant to that fact.
Its worth noting that the decision to make level shift part of those specific powers may have been an early decision. In other words, those powers may have had level shift *before* they had any other effects in a design sense. In that case, in no sense could they be considered an effect "slapped on" to make them more valuable. They were there before the other effects were even added, which means there was never a point where the devs looked at the tier three Destiny powers and said "we need to add level shift to them so players will grind for them." I suspect that never happened, because the level shifts were never not there.
I can tell you this much: the level shifting mechanic has existed in the powers team toolbox for longer than I think most people realize.
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I read this and think "wow you must me honorable to team with". |
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
For me, CoH has always been a game about single groups. It's been accessible to soloers, duoers, and single teams.
With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the content for City of Heroes fits this rule. Every issue before issue 20 has made a point of NOT tying progression or character customization to raid content. Even with the most difficult, trial-like content, the point of the game has been to work well together in small squads rather than huge armies. This is even written into the game lore in various places. (Alpha and Omega teams, anyone? Marcus and Stefan ditched their small team and DUOED their way to the Well of the Furies.) With Issue 20, Paragon has embraced warcraft-style raid instances. I didn't have a lot of time to try to beta i20, so I got to experience this at launch with the majority of other players. What surprised me most is how tied the new advancement is to the raid content. You *can* very slowly and expensively convert solo progress into new progression and customization, but the issue has made quite clear that the PREFERRED method is to raid for it. This sucks. I burned out on raiding before I ever came to CoH. The feeling of being part of an army is not really fun for me. Even with very fun people I like, the feeling of being in a raid leaves me cold. I'm a faceless minion that could be replaced by anyone rather than an important member of the Five Man Band. I'm either a cat to be herded or an inhuman general to be kvetched at because I don't know how to lead well. It's not 'Super' at all. I19 captured 'Super' so well, having you fly into Praetoria while all the other heroes of Paragon City were holding the line. It felt really awesome to defend the PPD against a legion of warwalkers. I20 has you two-shotted by Marauder and his band of Warwalkers again and again. Not so super. 'Oh, here's a little progress on your bar. Surely if you keep at it, you and 15 other random heroes will eventually be able to put him down.' No, that's not very super at all. The difference between the two is requiring multiple groups to succeed at the content. Worse, to progress in anything LIKE a timely fashion through the new abilities, you MUST raid. The alternative is at least a 5x timesink grinding shards. After COMPLETING both raids with talented parties composed of people I like, I'm starting to see that there's not a lot in i20 for me. I'm pretty disappointed. |
I've had lodes of fun both being a part of a team and leading. And while I did feel rather un-important right at first. Now that I have a few slots under my belt I'm realy starting to feel important. A good team that was getting taken out in 2 shots can now smack him down like any other AV. And while leading has had a few problems, fing MAKE SURE YOU HAVE LEAGUE CHAT ON, It has bin rather fun especially whin you win even though you think you wouldn't. Doubly so now that most know the basic hot to dos. All one realy needs to do is issue a few basic commands... and pray. :P
It takes about 3 runs to unlock each of your first set of slots about 2 more to get enough components to set them to tear 3, depending on how well you do in them. Maby 1/3-1/2 more than that for the next 2. Granted getting them all to teir 4 will take a while but IT"S SUPPOSED TO. You seem like the sort that likes to max his caricature in a week. Well that's not going to happen. Casual play is good but it isn't going to be equal to those of us who make a dedicated effort to enjoy all this game has to offer. About the only think that bothers me is twiddling my thumbs through the cut seens. And the occasional instability in the leage system.
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In other words, the more a game focuses on the MULTIPLAYER part of "MMO", the less social it becomes. Well, that kind of kills the arguments of the "it's a multiplayer game, go on a raid!" crowd.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
As far as the whole "my character doesn't feel special in multiple team content" argument goes: How do you define feeling special?
It's not a matter of the game making you feel special. The game doesn't make you feel special in single team content. The game will not acknowledge that your tank pulled the agro off a controller and saved his butt. The game will not recognize that your empath brought the blaster back from the brink of death. The game is not capable of recognizing those things, it is at it's core a collection of numbers and calculations. It's not a matter of YOU knowing what you did either. If that's all that was important it wouldn't matter a bit if you were by yourself or had 47 other people with you. You would know what you did regardless. If it were about YOU knowing what you did, why would you care if no one else noticed? What it's really about is getting the praise and recognition of other players. When your tank saves the controllers butt, the controller recognizes that you did that. When your empath brings the blaster back from the brink of death, the blaster is appreciative. In multiple team content like the trials, no one is saying "good tanking" or "Thanks for the heal", because they're too busy with what they're doing to type it out. That denies you the attention you crave, which is what it's really all about here. Other players' reactions are really the only means of feeling "special" that you can't have just as easily solo. Multiple team content isn't bad for the game.....it's just bad for your ego, because no one is patting you on the back saying "Way to go!" The people who are okay with multiple team content are aware that they don't have to feel special while they are doing something this large scale. You win or lose as a TEAM....there isn't room for egos in something like that. |
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