A quick advice in dealing with uncooperative teammates.
I know this is totally at a tangent, but I am not convinced that this particular belief is so wrong. I used to be of the opinion that respect had to be earned until someone pointed out something very simple.
The idea that your respect is so valuable that other people have to earn it suggests two things. One; that you think a great deal of yourself and Two; that other people should respect you instantly in order to want to gain your respect. In my opinion respect should be a given. Yes, it is very easily lost and very hard to win back but to think less of someone because they haven't yet proven something to you seems rather... disrespectful? |
Being courteous and polite to people costs me nothing, though, and is a good place to start when interacting with strangers.
Sorry, OP, but YOU were the one being the jerk in your example. Yes, you put the team together, and yes you had the star next to your name. That doesn't give you the right to bark orders at people and get pissed when they didn't jump when you told them to.
Personally, I would have added a player note to you reminding me never to join a team you are leading. Since you have given no indication of your behavior when you are not the leader of a team, I would still give you the benefit of the doubt if you happened to show up on a team I joined.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Others always talked about this, but just to reiterate, being a team leader isn't so much a privilege as it is a responsibility. When I'm leading a Task or Strike Force I consider it my responsibility that the team members enjoy themselves. Usually it doesn't take much more than supplying a constant stream of missions, but I do think communication helps a lot at keeping everyone on the same page (for example I always tell TF teams, while recruiting and before starting, that we're going for a high bodycount so if they want speed this isn't the team for them).
So if I both want the team to have fun but consider communication incredibly important, you'd think that orders are the way to go, and I suppose you'd technically be right. I do tend to give orders (I'm kinda afraid I'm like the leader Wicked Wendy talked about, haha), but I try to never sound forceful about it. "Let's try it this way", "how about we do this?" "I suggest we do that". I found that most players are flexible enough that often they don't really care how things are done as long as they get done and they'll eagerly follow your suggestions if you ask nicely. In the third mission of the ITF for example I kinda prefer taking out the AVs before destroying the computer so I ask "how about we take out the AVs out first on their little platform?" and then that's what people do.
On that note, like I said earlier, I really am afraid I sound too much of a drill seargeant at times, and the truth, like I also said, orders and suggestions and the like usually aren't necessary. In fact more often than not I find that teams often just follow into a rhythm after one mission. I had teams that did horrible against Arbiter Sands in the first STF mission and then proceeded to steamroll Recluse's lieutenants without anything obvious having changed. In the Renault SF I did a couple days ago we only had ranged squishies and had someone faceplant every second mob in the first mission only to proceed to utterly obliterate everything from the second mission on. This really isn't an issue of order or strategy as much as it is the team just getting into a rhythm they can work with.
TL;DR: If you're the team leader, keep your team happy. Games are supposed to be fun.
I'd have gone with the Captain Obvious remark too (generally combined with the "lets not bother buffing or healing them in the next spawn as I have Power Boost and Vengeance ready to go anyway).
I strongly dislike team leaders who seem to think they're running some sort of tactical masterpiece here. The game isn't hard, we don't need your guidance to play it thanks, lets just cream them as quickly as we can.
If we die a few times at a room I'm willing for someone to pull, but being a team leader doesn't mean the entire team is at your beck and call and we should do it exactly as you say.
I've had a few of them in the last few weeks. And oddly they almost always seem to be Tankers. Maybe next time I'll suggest they try a mastermind instead.
The best tanks are the bouncy hyperactive ones you've to try and keep up with who just do their thing and trust you to do yours and just say things like "Wheee"
The best tanks are the bouncy hyperactive ones you've to try and keep up with who just do their thing and trust you to do yours and just say things like "Wheee"
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@OP I think most of it has already been covered by other posters and you seem to be willing to take what has been said on board, which is nice to see.
One thing I'd add is, if you're coming to CoH from other MMOs like EQ2, LotRO and maybe WoW (not sure how much coordination/communication is needed there tbh) you may need to change your thinking slightly.
My experience is mainly with EQ2 where running high-end dungeons there was actually some strategy needed and short commands like "Wait", "Pulling", "Assist", "Mez x" etc from the leader (normally the tank) were fairly common and no one really batted an eyelid at it.
CoH is a much more relaxed game and for the vast majority of the content that's simply not required. The fights are much more chaotic, especially on a full team but as long as the team sticks fairly close together and everyone uses their powers with even a little common sense, they're generally pretty easy. Add to that the fact that a large percentage of the playerbase has been here for years, have a ridiculous number of alts and probably tried out every powerset in the game at this stage and really don't need to be told how to play and it's not surprising you encountered some attitude.
So just relax, throw out the old rulebook, embrace the chaos and have fun This game has probably the friendliest and most helpful community of any MMO I've played but you will get back what you give. Try being polite and more respectful next time and you'll be amazed at the difference.
I disagree with those who claim this game is nothing but easy. If you want strategy, go with a small to mid-size team. Rarely do full teams challenge my strategic thinking cap. A three or four-man team on the other hand, with powers well-balanced (or not), but up against the odds with the difficulty cranked up a bit-- this is where strategy comes into play. And believe me, it does. Smaller teams also give teammates a chance to get familiar with each others fighting styles. This is rarely, if ever, possible on full teams (excluding static or regular team-ups between the same people). Build up a good friend list and global friend list, and use it to put smaller teams together with people you can grow familiar with over time. (And don't simply rely on your super group to supply you with familiar faces. A good friends list often outlives a super group.) This is the most rewarding way to team.
Excluding a small handful of task forces, trials and Architect Entertainment missions, full teams require little thought. But that doesn't mean they don't appeal to me too. They're great fun and everyone gets a chance to type out saucy one-liners without risking their life or their team's. But people who always insist on a full team are missing out!
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But, I don't automatically expect people to respect me either, because it wouldn't be fair to expect something from someone I haven't given in return yet.
Being courteous and polite to people costs me nothing, though, and is a good place to start when interacting with strangers. |
I think the conflict here may just be a different idea of what 'respect' entails. For me being courteous and polite is a part of being respectful and, from what you say, you are respectful when interacting with strangers. What differs is possibly the level of respect. If someone has done something that raises them in your eyes you gain more respect for them and that is good. What I argue is that if you say all respect has to be earned then, until that respect is earned, you have no respect for a person. And, as a corollary you expect no respect from anybody until you have proven yourselves to them.
I don't think that respect is either fully there or non-existent but nor can I quantify a sliding scale of respect. What I do think is that a certain level of respect should automatically be shared rather than the very arrogant sounding argument of 'you must earn my respect'.
A semantic argument, yes, but it is important to me.
When you hit 50 it gets even worse. The Mr. Awesome (which I am any way) syndrome kicks in, and people do what ever they want. They leave the group, to kill on their own (which makes me wonder why they team at all), or they pull 3 other groups to the one the team is already struggling with.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Learn from experience, and from the comments made here.
Poop happens. I did a TF after taking ambien last night. I was not at my best (didn't think it would kick in so fast), and was embarrassed. I apologized, and they forgave me. Admitting that you screwed up can go a LONG way.
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Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm invited to a group, the leader becomes my new dad.
If dad says wait, I wait. If dad says use my best attacks, I use my best attacks. If dad says 'Will you die for me?' I shout YES and prove it. I am afraid of my dad, so I do what he says. Dad doesn't like it when I burn the bacon.
Leaders are never to be questioned. This isn't some social revolution folks. It's a game where you do what you're told, or else you will have your fun card revoked. You want to express yourself, get a diary, but it has no place in Team Chat. Team Chat is for LEADERS. Shut your mouth and do what you're told.
It's not about what works, it's about doing what you're told to do. If you do what you are told and it doesn't work, do it again and do it better this time.
Listen to your Dad. Don't burn the bacon.
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm invited to a group, the leader becomes my new dad.
If dad says wait, I wait. If dad says use my best attacks, I use my best attacks. If dad says 'Will you die for me?' I shout YES and prove it. I am afraid of my dad, so I do what he says. Dad doesn't like it when I burn the bacon. Leaders are never to be questioned. This isn't some social revolution folks. It's a game where you do what you're told, or else you will have your fun card revoked. You want to express yourself, get a diary, but it has no place in Team Chat. Team Chat is for LEADERS. Shut your mouth and do what you're told. It's not about what works, it's about doing what you're told to do. If you do what you are told and it doesn't work, do it again and do it better this time. Listen to your Dad. Don't burn the bacon. |
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm invited to a group, the leader becomes my new dad.
If dad says wait, I wait. If dad says use my best attacks, I use my best attacks. If dad says 'Will you die for me?' I shout YES and prove it. I am afraid of my dad, so I do what he says. Dad doesn't like it when I burn the bacon. Leaders are never to be questioned. This isn't some social revolution folks. It's a game where you do what you're told, or else you will have your fun card revoked. You want to express yourself, get a diary, but it has no place in Team Chat. Team Chat is for LEADERS. Shut your mouth and do what you're told. It's not about what works, it's about doing what you're told to do. If you do what you are told and it doesn't work, do it again and do it better this time. Listen to your Dad. Don't burn the bacon. |
I'd never demand this attitude from someone else (and I'm sure you're stretching for sarcasm), but this is actually exactly how I feel about it when I join another person's team. If they play fast and loose, fine. But if the leader's barking orders, I stick close and do what I'm told because it's their team. When they know how to lead, I don't let my ego get in the way because these can be incredibly fun and cohesive teams. When they don't know how to lead, I find out soon enough, and excuse myself after a team wipe or three.
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If I have encountered this kind of problem ever in this game, it's been less than a handful of times, and I can't recall any specific times now. The first step in "Knowing how to lead" is in knowing that, unlike certain dictators in the Real World, or certain bad bosses in the workplace, no 'leader' in this game holds anything more over anyone else's head than the Invite/Kick buttons. "Success" is only really a key Leadership quality in the Real World -I've had more fun on a few failed TFs than I have on some other successful ones led by people that don't know how to have Fun.
And any schmo can quit that team and become a Leader themselves. So, Noxilicious, Nuclea, Carnifax, and others seem to have it just right.
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You sound like a jerk of a team leader, actually.
How would I deal with a jerk team leader? I'd quit the team after letting you get defeated a couple of times.
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I have dealt with leaders like the OP... I just drop an 'lol' in team chat, quit the team, move on to a team without a complete tool as the star holder...
or use tells to other team members, determine that the leader is indeed a nut job, all of us quit the team and shread thru the mish out of team... :P
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
It is my suspicion that this entire thread is one big Vik roll.
While I'm not exactly known for being polite, even I must say..you kinda went overboard there man. I mean.. ok.. so your the one who formed the team..big deal. Forming a team doesn't automatically give you the right to boss the team around. While having the star /does/ give you the ability to choose mission, invite more people, or even kick someone from the team, it doesn't mean you deserve respect.
Like another poster said earlier, respect is to be earned, and this isn't the military where a star means people are supposed to listen to you lol..its a game, the star means nothing more than. "Hey.. this guy can choose missions." Yes, your right that one person was a little out of line..maaybe just a little, but at the same time so were you in just kicking him. Of course, this /is/ a MMO, where folks seem to thrive on being overly sensitive little whine *****, but still..
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm invited to a group, the leader becomes my new dad.
If dad says wait, I... |
j/k <3
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And yet with your statement (you'r belief is wrong) you do expect to be respected. If you, and therefore your opinion, is not to be respected until such a time as you have proven yourself worthy or respect then what is the point of voicing an opinion?
I think the conflict here may just be a different idea of what 'respect' entails. For me being courteous and polite is a part of being respectful and, from what you say, you are respectful when interacting with strangers. What differs is possibly the level of respect. If someone has done something that raises them in your eyes you gain more respect for them and that is good. What I argue is that if you say all respect has to be earned then, until that respect is earned, you have no respect for a person. And, as a corollary you expect no respect from anybody until you have proven yourselves to them. I don't think that respect is either fully there or non-existent but nor can I quantify a sliding scale of respect. What I do think is that a certain level of respect should automatically be shared rather than the very arrogant sounding argument of 'you must earn my respect'. A semantic argument, yes, but it is important to me. |
Take, for example, the CEO of a corporation. I'm not automatically going to respect that person simply because of the position they hold.
They could be a pathetic excuse for a human being that takes advantage of their position to make life hell for others, and thus not worthy of being respected.
On the other side, they could use their position to help people in need of it, in which case they will have earned my respect.
I respect others based on their actions, not the position they hold relative to me. If I have not witnessed any of their actions, then I have no basis to know whether I respect them or not, and they are a blank slate until such time as their actions merit a decision as to whether I respect them.
But, if they have taken no positive or negative action, I have no reason to not be polite and courteous. I do not consider respect and politeness to be the same thing.
Also: When you disagree with someone, it is bad form to come out and say "your belief is wrong". If you disagree with me, that's fine. But disagreeing does not automatically make you right, and stating that I am wrong simply because you disagree with me is displaying a distinct lack of respect on your own part.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Also: When you disagree with someone, it is bad form to come out and say "your belief is wrong". If you disagree with me, that's fine. But disagreeing does not automatically make you right, and stating that I am wrong simply because you disagree with me is displaying a distinct lack of respect on your own part. |
With the CEO example I would respect the CEO. However I would not respect him more than I would respect any other person just because of his job. Depending on the CEO's actions he may gain greater respect but then so may the random other unnamed person with whom I have made a comparison.
It does seem to be two slightly different definitions of respect. Where my stance comes from is looking at the negative connotations of the phrase 'having no respect for'. To me, someone who has no respect whatsoever must have done something terribly unpleasant to deserve such a status rather than a person who I have yet to encounter.
And yes, respect is more than just being polite but being polite to someone is a sign of respect.
I agree totally. I was not saying that your belief was wrong, I was mis-attributing to you a quote from the original post which I had quoted. It was my mistake which I freely admit to.
With the CEO example I would respect the CEO. However I would not respect him more than I would respect any other person just because of his job. Depending on the CEO's actions he may gain greater respect but then so may the random other unnamed person with whom I have made a comparison. It does seem to be two slightly different definitions of respect. Where my stance comes from is looking at the negative connotations of the phrase 'having no respect for'. To me, someone who has no respect whatsoever must have done something terribly unpleasant to deserve such a status rather than a person who I have yet to encounter. And yes, respect is more than just being polite but being polite to someone is a sign of respect. |
To people who say "I have no respect for you until you earn it" I say, "Thanks for letting me know that. I now have no interest in earning your oh-so-precious respect. Keep it, because you've just shown me that you don't deserve the respect I've already extended to you."
it would be better for him first : to research the game, learn the mechanics, learn the mobs, learn how most powersets works and how each teammate can help the team... before barking rude orders to people that would probably know a lot better than him
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