If you take out the tier 9, Invuln is the most survivable IMO. Tons of defense, easily capped HP, capped S/L resists and solid DDR. You have the end drain weakness and psi damage weakness, but that's about it.
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If not Invul, WP has to be right there as well.
EDIT: Bah. Dark's tier 9 is a rez, so I'll add that in their as well.
Stone can achieve softcap (and then some) to S/L/E/N/Psi w/some DDR to back it, end drain resist & excellent regen out of Granite. Decent resists to S/L/F/C too. Not as good as Invul against most mobs, but maybe better vs. mixed Psi damage.
I'd also take a softcapped ELA, whose only real hole is tox. High resists everywhere (higher than DA or FA), infinite end, good regen (plus an okay heal).
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This, and also the fact that Invuln is pretty much a set and forget primary. You have a first line panic button in Dull Pain, which is all I find I need. The tier 9 is not all that helpful, IMO, and I have never bothered on a tanker.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
If you take out the tier 9, Invuln is the most survivable IMO. Tons of defense, easily capped HP, capped S/L resists and solid DDR.
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i dont find invul the best...but the easiest to tank with...so ill go that route but lets place invul where it needs to go.
its the easiest and the safest for any new tanker.
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Agreed -- if we are ignoring aggro-holding and just sticking to durability, I'd rate WP roughly equal to Inv. I personally consider it slightly less strong for certain encounters, but really it's stronger for other encounters, and in any case they're close enough that player preference will make more difference than the narrow statistical gap I am claiming exists.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
If not Invul, WP has to be right there as well.
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I'd agree.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Agreed -- if we are ignoring aggro-holding and just sticking to durability, I'd rate WP roughly equal to Inv. I personally consider it slightly less strong for certain encounters, but really it's stronger for other encounters, and in any case they're close enough that player preference will make more difference than the narrow statistical gap I am claiming exists.
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When it comes to the raw ability to survive high burst damage, Invuln is kings (aside from Granite, which was tossed out). It has def, res (capped s/l), a heal, and +maxhp. It also has a lot of debuff resistance (most notably defense / end drain) which makes its survivability harder to strip away.
WP, on the other hand, isn't quite as hearty at surviving high burst damage, but it is much better at surviving damage for long periods of time due to RttC. It also has more rounded protection (ie: no hole to psi, and yes I understand Invuln gets psi mitigation through +def via Weave, Steadfast, etc) as well as stronger status protection (fear, confuse, +perception).
There are times I look enviously at Invuln's toolset on my WP, then I remember its shortcomings when looking at it objectively.
Throwing out Granite armor I agree that Invuln with moderate IO investment will come out on top in the majority of cases. There's a few situations where other sets would be better but they're rare. In my opinion Invuln is the best overall tanker. Others may be marginally better in one situation or another but I don't know of anything that's as good over as many situations.
Obviously Granite armor beats everything else in raw durability... it's the only set I know of that can cap S/L resistance, push E/N/F/C resistance to just short of 80% and soft cap S/L/E/N/F/C/Psi defense (albeit the Psi defense means running Minerals instead of Granite).
I've been pondering my Inv/Stone tanker and possible improvements... I can say that Unstoppable is entirely optional once you've soft capped it. Heck, most of the time I don't even need Dull Pain let alone Unstoppable. Tanking the ITF I sometimes need Dull Pain for the first take down of Romulous when that autohit nictus is up but I almost never need it any other time in the TF. For Tin Mage I used it twice on my last run, once vs Director 11 and once vs Bobcat.
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I am just returning after a long hiatus and wanted to try out a tanker, for the first time in a long time. I have been pondering this question myself and have been going back and forth between Elec (for looks and utility) and Inv (for straight up "Awesome"). I would be pairing it with SS either way, so would you recommend INV over Elec for a first tank, or would both do the job come end game?
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With minimal or no inventions, I think for Tankers its Granite first and then outside of tier 9s Invuln, no question.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Throwing out Granite armor I agree that Invuln with moderate IO investment will come out on top in the majority of cases. There's a few situations where other sets would be better but they're rare. In my opinion Invuln is the best overall tanker. Others may be marginally better in one situation or another but I don't know of anything that's as good over as many situations.
Obviously Granite armor beats everything else in raw durability... it's the only set I know of that can cap S/L resistance, push E/N/F/C resistance to just short of 80% and soft cap S/L/E/N/F/C/Psi defense (albeit the Psi defense means running Minerals instead of Granite). |
When you toss in unlimited budget builds, I think Willpower and Dark Armor have a shot at taking the crown away from even Granite in many circumstances.
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Invulnerability will be easier to level up, but Electric will be better for end-game content with a decent investment in IO sets. So far, the most common enemy in incarnate content has been Praetorian Clockwork which do primarily energy damage. Smashing and lethal are also major threats, and Electric Armor can come very close to capping those resists as well. |
Originally Posted by Atomic_Funk
I would be pairing it with SS either way, so would you recommend INV over Elec for a first tank, or would both do the job come end game?
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I don't know if Granite Armor should be excluded from the "no Tier 9's" demand. It can be left on permanently, unlike the others.
My Dark Armor tank has no "Tier 9 Survivability Thingy" and tanks all content about equally well. That's because the way I've built, I have no real weaknesses.
I mean, he has a Tier 9 power. I just never get to use it.
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Invul, followed closely by Fiery Aura...
(wait for it..)
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What? My Fire Tank is plenty survivable, and he doesn't fear mobs nearly as much as my Invuln tanker does. Heck, make that most exotic damage dealers. |
Originally Posted by Acemace
Invul, followed closely by Fiery Aura...
(wait for it..) |
Though I suppose he fears defense debuffers quite a bit more. Heh.
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Inv in my experience is very durable. Every typed defense save Psi can be softcapped for defense, S/L Resistances can be hard capped, and in the right build your other Resistances can be over 35%, save again Psi.
I made up a DM/Inv Brute in Mids that looks pretty good as well, particularly with the extra heal DM has.
Most survivable to least:
Stone (king of the hill in survivability, by miles and miles)
Elec (expensive though to soft-cap)
Dark (KB can be an issue, plus expensive to soft-cap)
WP (again expensive to soft-cap)
Invuln (almost impossible to totally soft-cap unless giving up a lot)
SD (best for damage)
-- below this, really don't bother
Ice
Fire (don't roll a fire tank, really)
When I say 'expensive', I mean both in inf and in terms of dropping other useful powers. This is just not my personal opinion, it's reality (except for WP/Invuln, lines are a bit muddled there).
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I'd take Invul simply for the simplicity of it. The tier 9 I have as a mule for a proc, and I can't remember the last time I meant to use it (I have used it by mistake, but then again I am too lazy to rearrange that tray).
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What?|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
SD (best for damage)
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
-- below this, really don't bother
Fire (don't roll a fire tank, really) |
Fiery Aura is so bad, a Fiery Aura brute just soloed the STF. That is pretty bad.
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FA is squishier than other tankers, but it's by no means a bad choice. It can't take the same punishement as an Inv, true, but it can dish it out in spades. With S/L raised to 30% or more they can be a beast.
Isn't death the ultimate debuff?
Fire/ has more damage, granted, but really, as a tank, it kinda sucks; which is why I don't consider it an option when looking at 'best damage'.
With Shield Charge and AAO, SD beats all other tank primaries on damage.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Fiery Aura is so bad, a Fiery Aura brute just soloed the STF. That is pretty bad.
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Are you sure you are in the right AT forum?, Invul hard to softcap? *Blinks* For a tanker? And yet is Elec better then Dark, WP and Invul *blinks* A pure Resistance set is 'hard' and expensive to softcap but a set that includes a scaling defense power is almost 'impossible' without problems. |
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Most survivable to least:
Stone (king of the hill in survivability, by miles and miles) Elec (expensive though to soft-cap) Dark (KB can be an issue, plus expensive to soft-cap) WP (again expensive to soft-cap) Invuln (almost impossible to totally soft-cap unless giving up a lot) SD (best for damage) -- below this, really don't bother Ice Fire (don't roll a fire tank, really) When I say 'expensive', I mean both in inf and in terms of dropping other useful powers. This is just not my personal opinion, it's reality (except for WP/Invuln, lines are a bit muddled there). |
Right, not personal opinions, really... *laughs*
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What is the best Primary power a tanker can choose for sheer ability to take a beating and still stand without having to go tier 9 on your primary?