Quote:
The problem is, you can use that as license to move the goalposts of your argument however it suits you.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Aid self doesn't count as really being a tanker heal in terms of a damage reduction power per se; being interruptible, it can be made useless by several situations, DoT attacks being one common situation. A heal counts for survivability when it _will go off (provided you have the end for it), no matter what. Not just if there are no DoT attacks active on you, or no one manages a hit right as you hit your heal.
None of the calculations made in this thread would work with Aid Self, unless specifically ignoring it's interruptible nature. |
Note that one of your builds was sporting Maneuvers. Some people here consider putting Maneuvers on a tank a failure.
Yes, the interruptible nature of Aid Self is a detriment. But many tank sets specifically have non-damage forms of soft-control mitigation that will help prevent powers like this from being interrupted.
Tanking does not merely fit your cookie-cutter image of what a tank "should be".
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
I frequently use Aid Self on several characters. Most DoT is easily worked around with one or two Interrupt IOs and paying attention. It is especially easy to use on the types of builds we are discussing, where defenses are high. That is not to say that it never fails me, but it is much more reliable than you might think. I have never had a tanker with it, but my EA brute still uses it and I had it on a Kat/Inv for a long time and both of those characters have been in tanking situations more often than not.
|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Aid self doesn't count as really being a tanker heal in terms of a damage reduction power per se; being interruptible, it can be made useless by several situations, DoT attacks being one common situation. A heal counts for survivability when it _will go off (provided you have the end for it), no matter what. Not just if there are no DoT attacks active on you, or no one manages a hit right as you hit your heal.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
You really have it in for me, don't you? Putting personal remarks aside, regarding aid-self:|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The problem is, you can use that as license to move the goalposts of your argument however it suits you.
Note that one of your builds was sporting Maneuvers. Some people here consider putting Maneuvers on a tank a failure. Yes, the interruptible nature of Aid Self is a detriment. But many tank sets specifically have non-damage forms of soft-control mitigation that will help prevent powers like this from being interrupted. Tanking does not merely fit your cookie-cutter image of what a tank "should be". |
DoT powers will render aid-self useless, is this correct?
If so, how do we factor in Aid-Self's heal bonus into damage reduction calculations, considering if a DoT power has hit you, it's healing will be 0, otherwise it's healing will be ~45%?
Also, if you're tanking a large group, let's assume that the group has an average chance of 7.75% to hit you (taking the exact middle between the minimum of 5% and maximum of 10.5% of +4 av's), and you have 10 enemies aggro'ed on you. That means that the chance of a hit getting through is? What are the chances of a hit getting through in the 0.5 seconds that you need uninterrupted during aid-self? How long are their attacks taking to cast? How often are they hitting you? How do you calculate all these variables?
The kicker being, what if an elec tank 'also' takes Aid-Self?
Do you see why I am dismissing using aid-self as a damage reduction power for the purposes of calculating survivability?
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
I am not saying Aid-Self doesn't work; I have it on several characters, and as I mentioned, on my stone tank (to help with solo tanking recluse).|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I frequently use Aid Self on several characters. Most DoT is easily worked around with one or two Interrupt IOs and paying attention. It is especially easy to use on the types of builds we are discussing, where defenses are high. That is not to say that it never fails me, but it is much more reliable than you might think. I have never had a tanker with it, but my EA brute still uses it and I had it on a Kat/Inv for a long time and both of those characters have been in tanking situations more often than not.
|
I am simply saying that it cannot be used to determine the survivability of one tank versus another due to it's interruptible nature.
And of course, it doesn't help that 'any' tank can take it, making the survivability comparison redundant.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Build please....|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
The kicker being, what if an elec tank 'also' takes Aid-Self? |
On a side note... The build I posted has more HP/sec with DP active... (not counting in the heals)
Funny thing is that aid self used to be 'mandatory' on elec brutes before energize got introduced. Two powers from Medicine, two from Fighting (weave was considered a waste of endurance on a pure resistance set since it would be the *only* source of defense. No IOs.), three from Fitness. Dark armor and fire aura had it worse, though... two from fighting, three from leaping (acrobatics was the only source of kb protection), three from fitness.
Ah, the innocent days where SO builds were the vast majority of all builds, with HOs being for the super dedicated (people who ran STFs or yellow dawn filled Hamidon raids. No market.)
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Quote:
Yeah, that _is a really nice build. I like it quite a bit.|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Build please....
On a side note... The build I posted has more HP/sec with DP active... (not counting in the heals) |
But as per your request, elec tank with aid-self.
Code:
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Not correct. They render it less likely to work. I have gotten Aid Self off on top of triple stacked Caltrops. Many (most?) ticks of DoT will come slow enough that you can get Aid Self off, if you slot for interrupt. That being said, DoT does often hinder the power. Certain toggles will always interuupt it (like the Radioligists).|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
DoT powers will render aid-self useless, is this correct?
|
I assume you actually play an Electric tanker. Could you post a build you play? The builds you have posted so far sacrifice so much and have terrible endurance consumption, I can't believe most people would be happy playing either of them.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Am I really reading this correctly.... You guys are now arguing about whos the better tanker based off the use of Aid Self? O_o
I dont even know were to begin on whats wrong with that.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
Quote:
Oh, Tough is OK, Aid Self is bad? You can use Weave, but Aid Self is right out? Aid Self is mostly just a side conversation, but there is nothing wrong with discussing it in the context of builds made for maximum survivability.
|
Originally Posted by Breog
Am I really reading this correctly.... You guys are now arguing about whos the better tanker based off the use of Aid Self?
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
I play a stone and a SD (I have a WP that is gathering cobwebs for a while now); I've been thinking of making a purely survivability machine of an Elec or Dark tank. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Not correct. They render it less likely to work. I have gotten Aid Self off on top of triple stacked Caltrops. Many (most?) ticks of DoT will come slow enough that you can get Aid Self off, if you slot for interrupt. That being said, DoT does often hinder the power. Certain toggles will always interuupt it (like the Radioligists).
I assume you actually play an Electric tanker. Could you post a build you play? The builds you have posted so far sacrifice so much and have terrible endurance consumption, I can't believe most people would be happy playing either of them. |
I am not really discussing what people will be happy playing; I've already conceded that Invuln is a more versatile tank. I'm simply arguing which is a more 'survivable' tank when built for pure survivability, as was the OP's question.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Tough doesn't get interrupted *shrug*
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Oh, Tough is OK, Aid Self is bad? You can use Weave, but Aid Self is right out? Aid Self is mostly just a side conversation, but there is nothing wrong with discussing it in he context of builds made for maximum survivability.
|
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Oh, Tough is OK, Aid Self is bad? You can use Weave, but Aid Self is right out? Aid Self is mostly just a side conversation, but there is nothing wrong with discussing it in he context of builds made for maximum survivability.
|
Besides what was said above about Tough, Medince is not a "standard" for tanks to take. At least in this point in the game. Medince pool also requires yet 2 more power picks.
Standard Pools of choice for tanks: Fighting almost by Default for all tankers (dare I say even brutes and Scrappers) basicly reguardless with what type of biuld they are.
Other pools that are extremely popular and almost always taken in biulds. Leaping and Speed
Other sets that are very commonly taken: Flight, Leadership, and Teleport.
Stealth, Medince, Presence are all bottum of the barrel when it comes to number of times they get picked on Tankers. (stealth is much more common on non-tanker biulds).
Nit picking with the medince pool I feel this thread is getting dangerously close to Custom biuld biulds for encounters to try and prove whos the better tank. When such a tank would fail at general content. I mean seriously... just because I can biuld a Fire tanker soft capped to Fire Defense and Im packing 90 Fire res and do only Fire Based AE missions doesn't mean that same fire tank can tank Lord Recluse.
If you want to compare tankers without Power Pools you start down another slipery slop in this debate. I would also point out that even Inv doesn't Cap S/L res without Tough, and weave certainly helps INV tankers as well.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
What do you guys think of this Elec tank build? I was thinking that with the now prevalance of Maneuvers on teams, plus the fact that I'll be taking Darkest Night, positional might be better than typed defense.
Do you guys think this build would be better than a typical s/l soft capped build? I mean with DN running I'd basically be soft capped to everything, and on teams it wouldn't take much to give me all position soft capping.
Code:
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Quote:
If you would post this on the Tanker forum, I'd be happy to give you some input. This is kinda OT for this thread.
|
Originally Posted by Crazy_Larry
What do you guys think of this Elec tank build? I was thinking that with the now prevalance of Maneuvers on teams, plus the fact that I'll be taking Darkest Night, positional might be better than typed defense.
Do you guys think this build would be better than a typical s/l soft capped build? I mean with DN running I'd basically be soft capped to everything, and on teams it wouldn't take much to give me all position soft capping. Code:
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Negative. Most DoT powers don't tick fast enough to reliably interrupt it *IF* you have interrupt reduction in it.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
DoT powers will render aid-self useless, is this correct?
|
Quote:
| Also, if you're tanking a large group, let's assume that the group has an average chance of 7.75% to hit you (taking the exact middle between the minimum of 5% and maximum of 10.5% of +4 av's), and you have 10 enemies aggro'ed on you. That means that the chance of a hit getting through is? |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
I've been seeing the Medicine pool on a lot more toons, including tanks, since we got inherent Fitness.
|
Originally Posted by Breog
Stealth, Medince, Presence are all bottum of the barrel when it comes to number of times they get picked on Tankers. (stealth is much more common on non-tanker biulds).
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Focus.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Negative. Most DoT powers don't tick fast enough to reliably interrupt it *IF* you have interrupt reduction in it.
Well, if I Foot Stomp first, then the chance of getting hit is pretty low. Or if I use Shield Charge. Or Fault. |
I am not saying that Aid-Self is NOT useful.
I am saying that you cannot use it in calculations due to it's reliance on no-interrupt.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Slot an interrupt in it and with a little practice you'll be able to get it to fire about 75% of the time even standing on caltrops. I used it constantly in the issue 6-11 era and I well know how it works.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Focus.
I am not saying that Aid-Self is NOT useful. I am saying that you cannot use it in calculations due to it's reliance on no-interrupt. |
Which is neither here nor there as a soft capped Invuln will very rarely need even dull pain let alone aid self. That's with a fully functional build too, not some monstrosity that sacrifices everything on the alter of defense.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
As to the orginal question of this thread.
I dont really think thier is a clear cut "best" all around tanker primary. It really comes down to your style and what you want to do, and how you want to do it.
Inv
Elec
Dark
Stone
Are my top 4 picks for all around Tanking in a varity of different content.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
Quote:
I agree mostly.|
Originally Posted by Breog
As to the orginal question of this thread.
I dont really think thier is a clear cut "best" all around tanker primary. It really comes down to your style and what you want to do, and how you want to do it. Inv Elec Dark Stone Are my top 4 picks for all around Tanking in a varity of different content. |
But if the argument was 'pure' survivability, I'd reorder that to,
Stone
Elec/Dark (not sure which now)
Invuln
WP
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Claiming Aid Self is invalid because it isn't popular is certainly one of the most hilarious arguments against it I've ever seen.
Quote:
I would put Dark above Electric.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
I agree mostly.
But if the argument was 'pure' survivability, I'd reorder that to, Stone Elec/Dark (not sure which now) Invuln WP |
They are quite similar in numbers but Dark has an additional layer of mitigation that Electric doesn't posess - control.
Oppressive Gloom allows Dark to Stun all surrounding minions thus reducing not only all damage from them but also any debuffs including -defense. This allows Dark to survive against mobs that Electric is not able to.
You can go even further and pair this with a Secdondary with a Stun component such as EM or WM for stacking stuns on Lts and Bosses thus negating all damage and debuffs from nearby mobs (excluding AV's and the like).
So Dark can eliminate alot of the incoming damage before even taking into account Defense/Resistance or heals.
Dark for me.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
Nope. Just disagree with your argument. So I'm attacking the argument.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
You really have it in for me, don't you?
|
Quote:
| Putting personal remarks aside, regarding aid-self: |
Quote:
| DoT powers will render aid-self useless, is this correct? |
Quote:
| If so, how do we factor in Aid-Self's heal bonus into damage reduction calculations, considering if a DoT power has hit you, it's healing will be 0, otherwise it's healing will be ~45%? |
Quote:
| Also, if you're tanking a large group, let's assume that the group has an average chance of 7.75% to hit you (taking the exact middle between the minimum of 5% and maximum of 10.5% of +4 av's), and you have 10 enemies aggro'ed on you. That means that the chance of a hit getting through is? What are the chances of a hit getting through in the 0.5 seconds that you need uninterrupted during aid-self? How long are their attacks taking to cast? How often are they hitting you? How do you calculate all these variables? |
Quote:
| The kicker being, what if an elec tank 'also' takes Aid-Self? |
Quote:
| Do you see why I am dismissing using aid-self as a damage reduction power for the purposes of calculating survivability? |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
ok i'll bite...
Cap s/l/c/f/e/n defense
36% f/c res
33.5 e/n res
386% regen
47.5% recharge before hasten
44.9% heal every 11-13 seconds
Aid self doesn't count as really being a tanker heal in terms of a damage reduction power per se; being interruptible, it can be made useless by several situations, DoT attacks being one common situation. A heal counts for survivability when it _will go off (provided you have the end for it), no matter what. Not just if there are no DoT attacks active on you, or no one manages a hit right as you hit your heal.
None of the calculations made in this thread would work with Aid Self, unless specifically ignoring it's interruptible nature.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense