Quote:
I think it's already academic. It's not uncommon to have three teammates with maneuvers these days, especially since the inclusion of inherent fitness. Since all these incarnate trials are designed around teaming, then I don't think it's going to affect builds that are already softcapped.
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Originally Posted by JRaven
However, I realize that once the incarnate buff powers start flying around after I20 the question may be academic.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I have to say I'm very impressed with the SD build Iggy posted, kind of makes me wonder just how close Elec Armor and Shield Defense are both offensively and defensively.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Yeah, and for the same reason, I think Invuln gets a little more benefit out of high-end IO investment in practice than the spreadsheet might show. The 50% DDR and the potentially huge buffer against ToHit buffs in Invincibility are hard to quantify; by contrast, a soft-capped Willpower gets full credit on a spreadsheet for the similarly crowd-boosted regen from Rise to the Challenge.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In real life, the DA build would be problematic without knockback protection and has no DDR to soften defense debuffs. The Granite tanker is also highly resistant to recharge debuffs because a significant part of its strength comes from its massive defense and resistances and rooted. So you have to take these numbers in context. They represent one aspect of a tanker's strength: the numerical mitigation. Situational issues can modify real world performance in the same way that attacking a pylon is different than attacking more dynamic spawns of critters.
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Seems to me that the ability to hit ~60% DEF to S/L/E/N/F/C, unbuffed, will be even better in upcoming Incarnate content. I already laugh at Paragon Police Peacebringers, which absolutely wreck DEF characters that don't have functional debuff immunity. Cimerorans likewise, but that's not exactly a surprise given that Invuln is RES-capped to their damage type. The thing that's particularly annoying about Peacebringer NPCs is that every single attack they use carries a massive DEF debuff, and AFAIK they're all typed as Energy attacks.
The Romans, again AFAIK, only debuff DEF with their melee attacks.
Invuln's comparative weakness to psionics is almost a blessing in disguise, I find. When making an Invuln build, I can leave psi DEF at ~19% (the amount needed to put me two small Lucks away from the soft cap with the Inspiration-boosting Vet badge) and then call it a day with a clear conscience. Likewise, gameplay tends to be pretty cut-and-dried on Invuln -- "If lots of psi = true, then pop Inspirations" -- whereas other sets tend to make me sweat the decision to build on whatever innate psi mitigation they have, and tend not to present such a clear pre-emptive choice with respect to Inspiration use.
As always, YMMV.
Oh, and for what it's worth, in my experience, psionic is probably the fourth most common damage type (after smash/lethal/energy). Subjectively, I'd have to say that psi is actually far more common than the next closest category (negative energy). And just to throw it out there, here's my INV Tanker build, which trades some of the defensive potential in other posted builds for a little more offense:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Almidon: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1467;708;1416;HEX;| |78DA7D94DD6E124114C767D945E4CB96B6405B2805DA4A0B7481166DD46AA35613B| |49856FC8A37646DC7B276BB10588CBDF32DBCF3318CFA187EB55E79AF567D83F570| |CE88984D9C00BFD9FF9C39F39F33CC569FAD07187BBEC6A4C05543EB74EA7734738| |FB73DB734ABDBD60CCF65635FDF699A1EC6588286EAEBFC31373B5CAD984FBB86C9| |DBDA23DDD0AD839818AE728373B5D66D41BF66B5B9B96B354215B3C1A16BA97F3A8| |1CD66D35037B8D6D2CD5D3F3E5C37F4DD86E5C37EADC5F94E90E49E0A41D16B2D7D| |5BBDD2EE5ABC5E6B768D7A55EB58BC7D300ED64AF07DE7851F09BECC666C49666C8| |AE57D4C345B669BAC27A5B61033B70935C47B982AD1549754947AD2893222B98C50| |21914C891439E3EA2DA8CC131610A7B2841C2202E5728B7CEE30E51B43445640546| |4F60956F45084E249E0D0C9346106311245A452880F10EEA570B7F73C4ABE0B8455| |44E02262E61262B62AF56C14C0B59F5CBBFD0D17E6D311D92788D21EC120EC23FC6| |03E48B3583086754C833424F63394C37A0FFF8323F017C20ADAAE106D7884363C26| |365C022FA3C2CB281DC5181D45848E224E47113F4413892384040B878597B089096| |590A2C24B942A374E951BA7CA7D062F1314204F909749F232791377930DE1D31238| |8A9167167B498709B9A744EE299A9A1826886D1C42F26911314DAB2769F5E434E22| |304A445409A0266292043016558764E1462EE2BEEF2F437C277C23122730E2D6556| |11DBE07C5ECC9A5F4469412514084544B68458CC2338CCCA89BF6D6E19A57C99708| |67096C257105FE04DA08ACAA9AFD045E12DE10DE135C20B652A8A53295299E24AFF| |A6C1071A5B50FAD7D1CE3A468B0EA5E450961D4AD9A16C38944D452C0B8A848A77B| |87F79ED635FFFA68BD19F7F1559BA819B71DDA373BB8B58AC207E3866FEF20DBC35| |92780F5C84C00BACA7FDDF761FA6DBA2400F06FA0F07FA5B037D6C6B70874A42F80| |D74280A96| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
It's probably a needless addition to this thread, what with Iggy_Kamakaze throwing out his build magic, but I thought it might be worthwhile to add some data points showing some of the defensive trade offs people are likely to make (in my case, taking the Flight Pool and Gloom/Dark Obliteration).
Apologies for rambling.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Quote:
I think when we're talking about tough tankers, we're usually talking about how tough they are in those situations where there isn't supplemental team buffing. You're not always going to have that buffing and its probably in those circumstances when you'll have the greatest need for a strong tanker. So the question of which builds are the strongest outside of that buffing isn't entirely moot. In teams with a lot of buffing, the odds are that you'll have more than enough regen and heals, and you'll probably be soft-capped defensively no matter what you are. It then all comes down to who has the highest health and resistances. That's where again Granite comes out on top, having the easiest time capping all resistances (except psi) and being able to cap health with enough speed. Dark and Electric become very strong all around contenders just below that, and Invuln essentially ties Granite on smash/lethal.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think it's already academic. It's not uncommon to have three teammates with maneuvers these days, especially since the inclusion of inherent fitness. Since all these incarnate trials are designed around teaming, then I don't think it's going to affect builds that are already softcapped.
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Incarnate-level content does throw wrinkles that the standard content tends not to, however. For example, click powers can become highly unreliable in Tin Mage due to the absolutely insane amount of -recharge the critters possess. A Granite tanker is probably going to lose EE a lot of the time, but conversely an Electric tanker may discover that Energize is reduced to an out of combat heal (even with recharge resistance). Separate from the I20 trials, its entirely possible that future Incarnate-class content will throw very powerful situations at the players that are more exotic than what tankers have to deal with now, besides 8600 point damage attacks.
In any event, its possible to compare builds vs at least Praetorian class critters by adjusting the base tohit in the spreadsheet: that's what its there for. Change it from 50% to 64%, and you can see how the builds change in relative and absolute performance. To stack maneuvers on everybody, you'll have to do that manually though. In the next iteration of the sheet, I plan on adding defense and resistance bonus rows so you can apply a blanket buff to a build without tweaking its individual numbers, specifically to compare that kind of thing. But I'm currently working on incorporating debuffs.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Aracanaville, thank you for spending so much time on this. A request for the next iteration of the workbook: include a section where we can enter our own "spread of incoming damage types" across all of them (please don't pair En/Neg, especially for us Elecs/). Please include your default values for shared comparisons. With those input cells, we could compare builds for ourselves based on our own perceptions of the content we plan to face and such.
If I wanted to really spend the time on this, I'd whip up a script/program to cull attack/damage/debuff values from a database of critters and such, with a front-end to read Mid's build info and spit out some survivability numbers based on some user input and DPS/A/E based on a user-input chain, but I'm just not going to spend that time on it. Well, at least not until this Summer and not unless someone else already has a fairly-accurate and up-to-date db of the critter values.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
Quote:
Its already in my version, which I hope to be uploading this weekend sometime. Its actually part of a special section that also provides for type distribution of debuffs. The calculations are getting ugly with that, so if I don't finish that I'll be uploading what I have anyway and continue working on debuffs next week. Types are not coupled: you could theoretically make smashing 90% of all damage and negative energy the other 10% if you want.|
Originally Posted by Wyldhunt
Aracanaville, thank you for spending so much time on this. A request for the next iteration of the workbook: include a section where we can enter our own "spread of incoming damage types" across all of them (please don't pair En/Neg, especially for us Elecs/). Please include your default values for shared comparisons. With those input cells, we could compare builds for ourselves based on our own perceptions of the content we plan to face and such.
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Quote:
| If I wanted to really spend the time on this, I'd whip up a script/program to cull attack/damage/debuff values from a database of critters and such, with a front-end to read Mid's build info and spit out some survivability numbers based on some user input and DPS/A/E based on a user-input chain, but I'm just not going to spend that time on it. Well, at least not until this Summer and not unless someone else already has a fairly-accurate and up-to-date db of the critter values. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Regarding the damage type problem, I was thinking about a few ways to gather data.
One option would be to work through the enemy sets a bit at a time in a test mission with invulnerability on. If you have controlled spawns of enemies, you can easily get a good sample of their attack distribution by just parking in a spawn for a long while, then moving to the next controlled spawn. Then if you can estimate the natural distribution of those enemies in their respective group, that would give you a good starting point, yes?
From there, it could just be an inventory of all the enemy groups in standard content, along with any named entities.
Does this seem plausible? I mean, it would take a while, but it should be fairly complete if done right.
EDIT: If you think this would be useful, I'm willing to volunteer my time for it. I mean, having City running in the background while I'm doing other stuff and occasionally moving from spawn to spawn wouldn't be a problem for me.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Quote:
Gathering the data is not really a problem for me. More critically important is weighting it, which would require making a lot of potentially controversial judgment calls.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Regarding the damage type problem, I was thinking about a few ways to gather data.
One option would be to work through the enemy sets a bit at a time in a test mission with invulnerability on. If you have controlled spawns of enemies, you can easily get a good sample of their attack distribution by just parking in a spawn for a long while, then moving to the next controlled spawn. Then if you can estimate the natural distribution of those enemies in their respective group, that would give you a good starting point, yes? From there, it could just be an inventory of all the enemy groups in standard content, along with any named entities. Does this seem plausible? I mean, it would take a while, but it should be fairly complete if done right. EDIT: If you think this would be useful, I'm willing to volunteer my time for it. I mean, having City running in the background while I'm doing other stuff and occasionally moving from spawn to spawn wouldn't be a problem for me. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Hope this works
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
Quote:
Its interesting... but I see things I dont think anyone playing a Elec Tanker would do. Like Badly Under slotting Power sink.|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Well I'm having one heck of a time trying to come up with an Electric build
throwing in the towel... here's where I'm at Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1477;704;1408;HEX;| |78DA9D53CB52134114ED994CC08440120284571E8447088F81A8E552CA12AC12495| |5107467A5626849244C52932C64E737B87161A13FE3DBB5967E820FD0955A9638DE| |B9A70958D9D995C9E9397DE7DC7B4F77E7EE2D0784B8BF24B4C0E56AB1D1286C16A| |D1D69FB3765A96CD5AAB5ED3DD1298488812E2CCB3BD26A4873A52A4B4DBB522A5C| |B2776B7654ADE664554A73B968EF601ABE6A95A52DADA6793C09E46BB5AAB9268BF| |58AB5DDCD2F572ADBE526BD058F97B6A4DD2857EA7E7EDFA84BB9155EA9574A667E| |CF96855CB1D194F6DE20D574819EA741FAD3E8118E47A4689216E371868904608CE| |1BB4FA8E118224F90121D1B0C67D601D719FC5B0459F19C643525AB415687AC0ED9| |0EC8FE24590F6475CFA14E3E09E300F091E10509792124BC51CDA55E12D5A9A8CEB| |31E37DD0059EC53E97CD798F2AF3224FB3517E68FDC3D10AFE8D32ED54557920302| |A38018C3581C90607846E1DD4AB61B65F5A0AC9ECF0C7D5F187E511741C87A83302| |704574270A51756F5C29CBE0986D7F44958F5117668088DDA8840C713814E063A73| |D0C942C74371FDAAAE7EB83B007707E06E16EE1A14175571511831D8070831CC441| |87E50FD43CA9621E41D46DE61E48D236FFC2E17FE9BC247F8D038DE911A53A31600| |26C53F31CCC39DF95D5E0B53313114A3C7504C12C5A4514C84021208D0128F74D78| |AE43EC391CFCDCE09F514528C23C53852FCA18049D5C0241A9842035368600A0DA4| |D1408A324DAB52A66799CA006600EF69FB6795DEEC5B4E31F70EB0CF010B8F19B24| |F183E50B8A94EB1F94FC00202DED0562FA201B198845546EB42D1CFDDFD8CD1BA8A| |CE4CDBEA621B936D63CEB531E7DB98B536266FA8B4C468CCF842AD5BE91CF85B375| |9AD7E3D610CED266FDDD845BE99E9553E76991B385CEB0C876D02DF4E184D7BA8BB| |41130F18DC65A7E8771790FDD6A979FED4FCF6A9F97F8E25BA695925F11722C533B| |4| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |
But a valiant effort
Heres my biuld in case my other link didn't work.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Praetor Imperium: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Armor -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(3), RctvArm-ResDam(7), ResDam-I(7)
Level 1: Jab -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 2: Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 4: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 6: Lightning Field -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Erad-%Dam(48), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 8: Static Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), RctvArm-ResDam(15)
Level 10: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 12: Energize -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(13), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(15)
Level 14: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 16: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam(19)
Level 18: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I(A)
Level 20: Conductive Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(21), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), RctvArm-ResDam(50)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), DefBuff-I(23)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), SW-ResDam/Re TP(25)
Level 26: Power Sink -- Zinger-Acc/Rchg(A), Zinger-Dam%(27), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(27), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(33), EndMod-I(33)
Level 28: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(29), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(29), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 30: Knockout Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(31), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(31), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(37), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(37)
Level 32: Power Surge -- GA-3defTpProc(A)
Level 35: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(36), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(36), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(36), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(37), Zinger-Dam%(40)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(40), Sciroc-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Mu Lightning -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Ball Lightning -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Knock%(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 50: Cardiac Core Boost
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(50), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
I'll keep my Shield/Dark, thank you. I only took One with the Shield because I was out of useful powers... And it's a useful "Oh, crap, the team is dead" button. lol
Tweaked Iggy's awesome Inv build so it has some more regen:
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...4BFE0774A5D65C
Code:
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Where would those calls lie? It seems like determining the frequency of attack/type usage per enemy group wouldn't be difficult to determine. Is it regarding the percentage of encountering the enemy groups?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Gathering the data is not really a problem for me. More critically important is weighting it, which would require making a lot of potentially controversial judgment calls.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Throwing out some considerations for data-gathering I can think of:
1. What powers are used by each mob type, what is each power's effect, and what endurance each power costs to use.
2. What innate resistances etc. each mob type has.
3. What could be considered a "mean average" (if this term could be mutated a bit and applied here) spawn, and what are the outliers for spawn composition, by level range.
4. What difference team size and difficulty settings will have on spawn composition.
My guess is that #1 and #2 would be the most time-consuming to compile and keep up-to-date, although some sources have a very good head start on this. A guesstimate of CoX's spawning code might be discoverable through *enough* mission/zone runs, with good player logs of those activities.
I'm absolutely sure I'm missing some data considerations, though.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
My softcapped Willpower (softcap to all except Psi, that at 35%) only hits the tier 9 when doing things like having to tank all heroes in the LRSF because the pull went horribly wrong. Other than that nothing bothers him, and I mean nothing.
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Making a judgment on how often you should be expected to face the different critters is one hazy area of guestimation. Are we considering players who play all the content, or focus on just some content? Are we looking for the best tanker for specific situations like high end task forces or all content?|
Originally Posted by Wyldhunt
Throwing out some considerations for data-gathering I can think of:
1. What powers are used by each mob type, what is each power's effect, and what endurance each power costs to use. 2. What innate resistances etc. each mob type has. 3. What could be considered a "mean average" (if this term could be mutated a bit and applied here) spawn, and what are the outliers for spawn composition, by level range. 4. What difference team size and difficulty settings will have on spawn composition. My guess is that #1 and #2 would be the most time-consuming to compile and keep up-to-date, although some sources have a very good head start on this. A guesstimate of CoX's spawning code might be discoverable through *enough* mission/zone runs, with good player logs of those activities. I'm absolutely sure I'm missing some data considerations, though. |
Another thing that requires judgment is the concept of thresholding. For example, certain critters can only generate so much threat due to the aggro cap. Should they count and under what circumstances.
For example, imagine a mission with lots of minions and Lts that all do smash/lethal damage that ends in an AV that does negative damage. The s/l damage is all in minions and LTs, and the most damage you could possibly face from them is seventeen times the output of one LT. That might end up being far lower than the damage output of the AV. The s/l damage might be 90% of the total damage you might face, but 0% of the total damage from damage sources capable of killing you.
So weighting isn't just about the pure damage ratios, but also their peak levels. Put simply, if you have a mission in which 99% of the time you're facing 500 dps of s/l damage, and 1% of the time you're facing 1000 dps of energy damage, energy protection might be far more important than its damage ratio would imply. Energy protection is only 2% of the total, but does that underweight energy protection? Something with 99% mitigation to s/l and no protection to energy might look better on paper than something with 75% s/l and 99% energy using unweighted ratios, but the latter might perform better.
When we start looking at specific critters and damage mixes, its starts to become interesting to ask if we can abandon averages altogether and come up with a set of damage targets to survive. In other words, suppose we make a list likie this:
1. Tank average 0x8 critter spawn (of each type of high level critter).
2. Tank all Praetorian AVs (singly)
3. Tank Lord Recluse in STF
4. Tank all AVs in LRSF (combined)
5. Tank buffed Bobcat in Tin Mage
etc. Instead of asking how strong a tanker is, we could ask whether a tank build could theoretically reach these specific targets which would have both damage levels and damage mixes intrinsic to them. A tank build would then hit some of them, and only reach a percentage of the rest. That would be a real-world-anchored way to compare tanker builds. Picking the targets for comparison would then be the area of debate.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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yeah, about my softcapped Will Tank. He is a monster (I think), but without a ton of team support he could not tank all the Heroes in the LRSF. I had enough problems handling 4 of them, (Posi and BABS being 2 of the 4). I was eating inspirations, hitting tier 9, and wondering how long I could last basically. In truth I held out for about 5 minutes, but it was horrid. And again, that was 4 of the 8. Also, I am not sure I could hold agro from all 8 at once. By spamming taunt and punching I could keep the attention of most of the 4, but with 8, I just do not think so on Willpower. In my limited understanding my agro aura and the Heroes natural resistance to the taunt effect make it probable somebody on my team will eat agro, and that means one less buffer, and cascading failure. At least, IMO. Maybe a Invulnerabilty/Dark Melee tank, that is somehow both softcapped DEF AND a ton of Rech, this will bring up Invul Heal often, and keep the build on its feet. i do this with a DM/Invul Brute, on a pure RECH build to great affect, but unsure if the build could be worked into a Tank with DEF having most of the priority over RECH.
I did Tank LR in STF, and it was easy peasy. Tin Mage also offers no problems. Havent tried the Praetorian challenge. I also do not see my build having a problem with any +0/x8 mobs, any creature type, including Psi. Trying to think, seems one group like to nerf me and it gets annoying, but with inspirations not a prob. Something about nerfing defense, and oh yeah, group also nerfs recharge. is it Nemesis? Anyways, makes it tough to tank cause taunt doesnt come up fast enough. Not too big a survival prob tho. Cannot remember, definitely no problem with Cims or Riktii. And maybe the ones I see a problem with are set at higher than +0, I run with some pretty aggressive group leaders sometimes, as we all find in the 50 groups.
I wouldn't play it, but another INV/SS build just for LOLs:
45+% S/L/N/E/F/C DEF, 45.2% Psionic DEF
90% S/L RES, mid-30s% RES to E/N/F/C/Toxic, 9% Psi RES
~53 HP/sec regeneration, capped HP, ~52% global recharge (but no Hasten)
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Code:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Obitus -
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So, if I wanted to take a powerset that would be impossible to kill, what should I take?|
45+% S/L/N/E/F/C DEF, 45.2% Psionic DEF 90% S/L RES, mid-30s% RES to E/N/F/C/Toxic, 9% Psi RES ~53 HP/sec regeneration, capped HP, ~52% global recharge (but no Hasten) |
Obitus: Invulnerability
Me: Invulnerability? What's it have to offer in the high end others don't?
Obitus: You're invulnerable.
Me: To...?
Obitus: You are invulnerable.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
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Originally Posted by Obitus
I wouldn't play it, but another INV/SS build just for LOLs:
45+% S/L/N/E/F/C DEF, 45.2% Psionic DEF 90% S/L RES, mid-30s% RES to E/N/F/C/Toxic, 9% Psi RES ~53 HP/sec regeneration, capped HP, ~52% global recharge (but no Hasten) Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Code:
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Under slotted attacks and no Hasten, no thanks. I considered at one point softcapping fire/cold, but decided against it. Most if not all cold attacks, range and melee, have a lethal component which you will be protected from if your softcapped to S/L. Fire melee attacks also have a smashing component. Unless you go out of your way to fight CoT, you won't be facing pure range fire attacks. I'd rather build for other things and use insp's for those extremely rare encounters.
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Tee hee |
Originally Posted by Katten
Obitus: Invulnerability
Me: Invulnerability? What's it have to offer in the high end others don't? Obitus: You're invulnerable. Me: To...? Obitus: You are invulnerable. |
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
Under slotted attacks and no Hasten, no thanks. I considered at one point softcapping fire/cold, but decided against it. Most if not all cold attacks, range and melee, have a lethal component which you will be protected from if your softcapped to S/L. Fire melee attacks also have a smashing component. Unless you go out of your way to fight CoT, you won't be facing pure range fire attacks. I'd rather build for other things and use insp's for those extremely rare encounters.
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I agree about Fire/Cold DEF in particular, having spouted that same line you just did almost verbatim countless times in this very forum. The build is basically just a thought exercise. Soft-capping F/C wasn't an explicit goal; it happened almost by accident on the way to soft-capping psionic DEF.That said, the build is surprisingly playable. The attacks are not so underslotted (with a caveat, below) that the build's offense is bad by SO-build standards. We're looking at a ToHit-capped attack chain against +3 critters, with more than the equivalent of pre-ED perma-Hasten (between the global recharge bonus and the Spiritual Alpha) on top of at least decent/middling recharge enhancement in each (except for Jab, which frankly doesn't need recharge). Damage enhancement in the high 80s% on a build with perma-Rage and +7% in global damage ain't a big deal; the net difference between 95% damage enhancement and 85% on a build with +87% in damage buffs is (1.95 + 0.87) / (1.85 + 0.87) = a whopping ~3.7%.
The loss of what I'd call good APP attacks is a significant flaw relative to the builds I prefer to play, but then again a lot of people go for Energy Mastery. Heck, a lot of the Superman-themed defensive Tanker builds I've seen around this forum don't even take Punch, so even if they have Hasten the LOL build probably tends to have marginally higher single-target DPS. There's a likelihood that endurance could become a problem in protracted fights, but I don't see anyone who might be inclined to play something like this doing a lot of soloing.
The closest thing to a deal-breaking (mechanical) flaw in the build is the lack of Taunt. That is legitimately a big deal on a build that is designed around defense. For that reason, I'd probably drop Punch to embrace the full-on theme of meatshield.
Speaking of flaws, it's worth noting that I made a rather large mistake in the slotting of Jab when I was messing around in Mids' this morning: There's supposed to be a full set of Pounding Slugfest in there, and those IOs are supposed to be at level 30, and not 25. (That explains the E/N DEF mystery I had when I was still blinking sleep out of my eyes this morning, too.
) Also, the new version of Mids' seems to have Accolades and Incarnate Boosts toggled off by default, so you'll have to turn those on to see final numbers.In any case, I'll edit the previous post to fix Jab. I'm certainly not the best build maker on the forums, and I'm sure that any number of people in this thread could improve on the build.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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A more meatshield-ish version. Swapped Punch out for Taunt, added incidental amounts of recovery, ToHit, and global damage/recharge:|
Originally Posted by Obitus
The closest thing to a deal-breaking (mechanical) flaw in the build is the lack of Taunt. That is legitimately a big deal on a build that is designed around defense. For that reason, I'd probably drop Punch to embrace the full-on theme of meatshield.
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
LOL2: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Code:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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This is what I'm leaning more towards, with an interface which allows the player to specify what he/she personally determines to face in-game. In other words, I'll pick on Sailboat since I've teamed with him all of once now: I value the opinions he (and many others) have given on the forums, but I'm pretty sure I have a different impression of "average content" than he does, mostly because I haven't faced most of the TF content he has.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
When we start looking at specific critters and damage mixes, its starts to become interesting to ask if we can abandon averages altogether and come up with a set of damage targets to survive. In other words, suppose we make a list like this:
1. Tank average 0x8 critter spawn (of each type of high level critter). 2. Tank all Praetorian AVs (singly) 3. Tank Lord Recluse in STF 4. Tank all AVs in LRSF (combined) 5. Tank buffed Bobcat in Tin Mage etc. Instead of asking how strong a tanker is, we could ask whether a tank build could theoretically reach these specific targets which would have both damage levels and damage mixes intrinsic to them. A tank build would then hit some of them, and only reach a percentage of the rest. That would be a real-world-anchored way to compare tanker builds. Picking the targets for comparison would then be the area of debate. |
I'd honestly rather have an interface where I can specify my own target content, say "STF" or "CoT lvl 40-50 at +1/x8/bosses/EBs" and have numbers spit out from that. I think many have a feeling that it's practically impossible to determine the most survivable tankers for all content (even Granite has its Psi-hole), but it may be possible to determine relative survivability for specific content - however, the following has me wondering whether even that's going to require some judgment calls, based on this:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For example, imagine a mission with lots of minions and Lts that all do smash/lethal damage that ends in an AV that does negative damage. The s/l damage is all in minions and LTs, and the most damage you could possibly face from them is seventeen times the output of one LT. That might end up being far lower than the damage output of the AV. The s/l damage might be 90% of the total damage you might face, but 0% of the total damage from damage sources capable of killing you.
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Hmm... Is it worthwhile to abandon "comparative survivability" completely and instead go for "pass-fail (or minimum) survivability?" In other words, in the mission example you give, specify the targets the character will need to survive (X damage mix for each of the spawns the character will face in the mission in burst and over the time brackets). Of course, this would need to include burst damage assuming everything hits, just to remind defense-dependent characters that they could still get defeated by the RNG if they don't have enough HP/Res...
Your workbook already allows us to see survivability numbers vs each damage type, and it could stop there, leaving all arguments of "how much of this damage type will I face?" to players, as those arguments have been around since the beginning of the game, and will continue at least as often as game content changes. Let me suggest this as a short-term goal for a survivability workbook checklist, which would allow it to come to closure for a while:
1. Each of the following by damage type:
...a. Burst damage
...b. Damage during 15s
...c. Damage during the other brackets you already have
2. A composite across all damage types for each bracket (burst/durations), with input cells to allow the player to specificy percentages of total composite for each of the damage types.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
Quote:
The advantage of simple calculations are that they are simple. Other people can read them, learn them, and adapt them. Lots of people have over the years, or reinvented them, but at the time I first wrote the basic versions of the survivability equations, I had that same choice: maximum fidelity or maximum clarity. I chose to use simple average equations because they would be most useful at the time. I still think most players at best can run those equations, or use a spreadsheet and get some numbers and try to extrapolate. They are still useful, if imprecise. Virtually all more complex approaches ever conceived of have been lost to time, because no one can sustain them.|
Originally Posted by Wyldhunt
Is it worthwhile to abandon "comparative survivability" completely and instead go for "pass-fail (or minimum) survivability?"
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The irony is that the more complex you get, the less interesting the numbers can get because beyond a certain point, people can't understand precisely what you're doing and have to take your numbers on faith. And if they do, your numbers have to have very little room for misinterpretation.
I think the threshold idea would be a good supplement to the simpler calculations, but I don't see them replacing those calculations.
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I wonder how I managed to miss this thread for so long. It has been a very interesting read, in particular the posted builds and the analysis how Electric and Dark perform with soft-capped defenses. I haven't had the time to play around with Arcanavilles spreadsheet yet, but I am very curious to do so.
In particular I'm very curious about what happens in the new Incarnate content as enemy ToHit is a bit higher there. I'd expect the sets with some native defense would handle that better, if they have been built for higher defense levels. Invulnerability and Ice may be the most interesting there: while I'm not familiar with Ice most soft-capped Inv builds I've seen will be far above the soft-cap if Invincibility is saturated.
However, I realize that once the incarnate buff powers start flying around after I20 the question may be academic.