In your personal opinion...
I honestly dont understand your numbers... Im sure its because I havn't slept much and its late but could you break them down a bit more.
*It looks like your saying Elec Tanker took the most Energy damage out of the 3 which doesn't make sense in the slightest so Im sure Im reading it wrong... or backwards lol*. Would it be possible to see the biulds you used? (guessing basic layout to keep things simple) Im curious because I'm not sure how Inv Crushs Elec in Smash/Lethal damage, when Elec "can" Cap Res to 90% and Soft Cap Def. See what your general numbers used for this would help give a point of reference. Because in Game I see Willpower Tankers taking Dirt naps all the time, and what you just posted doesn't back up what I have seen in game. (granted I'm probley not seeing High end Willpower biulds). |
What the numbers above represent are normalized incoming damage sustainable numbers - the amount of incoming damage from attacks each build could live through for the time period specified. Sustainable means "forever" while the other maximum damage per second you could sustain without dying in that timeframe. The composite score numbers are basically those numbers combined into a composite score with smash/lethal representing 66% of the score, and the other damage types representing 34% divided evenly then divided by a standard number. The strength of Invuln slotted with SOs, basically. So on sustainable damage, the composite score is saying the posted Willpower, Electric, and Invuln builds are 35 times, 26 times, and 19 times stronger than an SO-slotted Invuln tanker.
Short version: higher numbers are better.
The reason Invuln beats Electric in those posted builds is because of Dull Pain. In sustainable damage Electric wins because it has higher regeneration to offset damage over time: 26.36 to 18.80. But in short damage burst like 30 seconds, that higher regen/heal is less strong, while Invuln's higher health becomes relatively more valuable.
The Willpower build is so strong because Stratonexus (almost) capped out health. Consider this: his Willpower build has 3484.35 health. The posted Electric build has 2558.04 health. So even though the Willpower build has only 73.6% resistance to s/l and the Electric build has 81.7%, it takes a total of 13198 points of damage to take out all of that Willpower health through resistances, while it takes 13978 to to take out Electric's health through its resistances: that is nearly a tie. Invuln does better, capping smash/lethal and health. Even if Electric soft-caps defense, and caps smash/lethal, it cannot cap health (so far as I know: post an Electric build that soft caps defense and caps s/l and caps health and I'll change my mind). The posted Electric build doesn't cap s/l, so the disparity is even greater. But even if it did, Invuln would still win. It would do better against the posted Willpower build, though.
Why you see Willpower tankers die more often than Electric tankers is basically what you said: you aren't seeing very many builds as strong as the one Stratonexus posted. I'm not sure *I* have ever seen a Willpower tanker build that strong in-game. It soft-caps everything except psionic, essentially caps health, and has a ton of regen with only one thing in RTTC range. Most Willpower tankers don't have as much s/l resistance, don't cap health, and certainly aren't soft-capped to almost everything, which makes them more reliant on pure regeneration and much more vulnerable to damage spikes. A 2400 health Willpower tanker is not so hard to spike. A 3500 health Willpower tanker is a lot harder to spike and kill before its regen brings it back up to full. And its *really* hard to spike anyone that is soft-capped without resorting to tohit buffs: its not easy to kill my soft-capped SR scrapper and she's far less hardy than Strato's Willpower build, outside of high order defense debuffs.
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s/l/f/c/e/n defense softcap
35.4% psi defense
72.8 s/l res
14.6 f/c/e/n res
839% regen-121.78 HP/sec (1 foe in RttC)
3477 HP
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1429;693;1386;HEX;| |78DA65535B4F1341189D6DB7949602ADA550E4566EBDC2D2158CE2F5414041488A5| |57C32642D63D9D82C4DDBA8BCF903F4D90735BEFBBBBCA1A0FE0153BFFDCE504876| |D3F6CC9E3973CEF74D67B65EAD4484787D5B68913B35ABD9DC7D6839CF6523B0655| |5ED4A6245BEB01D99DA914E553A1599CADAE6722E28844842B6BB229F49A7298DC7| |76AD563F78291B0935B1256B92688B465645C6D69D7DD9904ECB381D444A0707356| |3535A75DBA9F6F2CB9A5DDD6FD15BFFE9D49E6C34F7ED7A98DFCB7529F7E2AB75BB| |62AC3AB2513D24E3664B360E93544E9EBE5F42F4A3D157B403E2110D4C31B90D283| |3E496004586BCC970392CD443AB4A0453C2B70D78C0102933F4DD2318137DEB0CDF| |284B43964F83FB0C22671079856CFDCAD60F5B1DB63A6CBB60DB05DB086CBF936D0| |0B6FEC07DBF6B94D960C8AD312CFC63DD0FD20539BFED0B22B71BB9DD28E62B0942| |CA28643015CE030A0CE690E61A0DD27FD9A3FAE8415212497377193412F4A20F7F2| |FFA98431FF3E8631E7DF849D7AF8CFAB1CF51EC737491E127551453825882A90B03| |8028C335DAB1B8DAB1389206903480A4149252D8AA496C9C4EB909D56802B683B01| |D84ED5C9C6199DC87E0AE0D7DF0B951C9F70C4754D8B02A6CF89DCF155F7C0378CB| |709D968E60A93EF2CBE7A68E9E008E18C68F19522DE1CA6354D198F21B4345E3A86| |81C151D53E004FCC4C425DEE51B61B733444CC17B1AA6D3089C46D20C226E927C56| |C967214F4390863C8DC519C8E354511615695934BDF091E12A191554290593C59FA| |82043514681A9CF74008AAAA3224E9B89D366E2B48DEA9D3B441F7A444EEFDCC576| |DE335BF430A68759F4304B1E66D3C39474154B8CC64C28DAB988ED9370E7D6AAD93| |F678CAEED7033995B7C33F21B0419318F7E17D0EF6F8FC1DF3346D3705EF2383D4F| |C22E87E0D2B9F1D373E36D3AF0A61A5BE7F8FFE3E9F267| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
s/l/f/c/e/n defense softcap
35.4% psi defense 72.8 s/l res 14.6 f/c/e/n res 839% regen-121.78 HP/sec (1 foe in RttC) 3477 HP Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1429;693;1386;HEX;| |78DA65535B4F1341189D6DB7949602ADA550E4566EBDC2D2158CE2F5414041488A5| |57C32642D63D9D82C4DDBA8BCF903F4D90735BEFBBBBCA1A0FE0153BFFDCE504876| |D3F6CC9E3973CEF74D67B65EAD4484787D5B68913B35ABD9DC7D6839CF6523B0655| |5ED4A6245BEB01D99DA914E553A1599CADAE6722E28844842B6BB229F49A7298DC7| |76AD563F78291B0935B1256B92688B465645C6D69D7DD9904ECB381D444A0707356| |3535A75DBA9F6F2CB9A5DDD6FD15BFFE9D49E6C34F7ED7A98DFCB7529F7E2AB75BB| |62AC3AB2513D24E3664B360E93544E9EBE5F42F4A3D157B403E2110D4C31B90D283| |3E496004586BCC970392CD443AB4A0453C2B70D78C0102933F4DD2318137DEB0CDF| |284B43964F83FB0C22671079856CFDCAD60F5B1DB63A6CBB60DB05DB086CBF936D0| |0B6FEC07DBF6B94D960C8AD312CFC63DD0FD20539BFED0B22B71BB9DD28E62B0942| |CA28643015CE030A0CE690E61A0DD27FD9A3FAE8415212497377193412F4A20F7F2| |FFA98431FF3E8631E7DF849D7AF8CFAB1CF51EC737491E127551453825882A90B03| |8028C335DAB1B8DAB1389206903480A4149252D8AA496C9C4EB909D56802B683B01| |D84ED5C9C6199DC87E0AE0D7DF0B951C9F70C4754D8B02A6CF89DCF155F7C0378CB| |709D968E60A93EF2CBE7A68E9E008E18C68F19522DE1CA6354D198F21B4345E3A86| |81C151D53E004FCC4C425DEE51B61B733444CC17B1AA6D3089C46D20C226E927C56| |C967214F4390863C8DC519C8E354511615695934BDF091E12A191554290593C59FA| |82043514681A9CF74008AAAA3224E9B89D366E2B48DEA9D3B441F7A444EEFDCC576| |DE335BF430A68759F4304B1E66D3C39474154B8CC64C28DAB988ED9370E7D6AAD93| |F678CAEED7033995B7C33F21B0419318F7E17D0EF6F8FC1DF3346D3705EF2383D4F| |C22E87E0D2B9F1D373E36D3AF0A61A5BE7F8FFE3E9F267| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |
Nice build.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Thanks Arcanaville, that clears it up.
That is a very impressive Willpower biuld (I can't see it as Mids hates me) but just the numbers you posted about it. I do wonder how it does in other areas, Dam etc
Impressive none the less, I do feel its a "what if" style biuld. As you mentioned you havn't seen a biuld like that in game. Given ulimated tools/influence style biuld thats not likly to see play.
Be interesting to see some other Elec/Inv biulds numbers run throw your system to see how they match up. I am rather surpised that Inv did so much better then Elec in S/L but you mention the biuld is not capped to Def or Res so thats a big factor in that numbers I imagine.
Because of how its divideing out damage the numbers a bit skew in certain areas. Considering how common Energy Damage is in the game (Hello Tin Mage). And like you mention Psi isn't all that uncommon of a damage type. But its still intersting.
More evidence that Elec is not a bottum rung tanker set
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
No tanker primaries are "bottom rung". Some sets are more offense oriented and some are more survivability oriented.
Electric Armor ranks 3rd on my offense rating(behind SD and FA) because it has a damage aura, top endurance management, and some recharge. Dark Armor only has a damage aura for offense, so if it wasn't better than Elec for survivability(which it is) it would mean a DA buff is in order.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
That is a very impressive Willpower biuld (I can't see it as Mids hates me) but just the numbers you posted about it. I do wonder how it does in other areas, Dam etc
Impressive none the less, I do feel its a "what if" style biuld. As you mentioned you havn't seen a biuld like that in game. Given ulimated tools/influence style biuld thats not likly to see play. |
Also, its cheaper than the SR build I'm playing now. Its expensive, given that it uses the PvP +Def and +Res procs, but its not the most expensive build I've seen really. So while I haven't seen one like it that I'm aware of, it was well within my ability to make and play one myself if I had a mind to. And knocking out those two procs, the build is *still* softcapped (albeit barely) and still very strong, so a player could build up to this build over time, slotting those last two IOs down the road.
Its actually a very good build. I think the compromise on total damage is reasonable. The only compromise you don't want to make in an ultra-strong tanker build is endurance, because if you can't swing, you can't gauntlet things. Especially important for Willpower.
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Ok, I've whipped up a quick and dirty spreadsheet that distills the important stuff from the old power proliferation spreadsheet I was using to quick calculate this stuff. I've made some tweaks, in particular this spreadsheet presumes smash/lethal is 60% of all damage, not 66%. Otherwise its basically using the same calculations.
Just download your own copy and fill in anything you want. You can basically plug in the numbers right from Mids. All you have to do is this:
1. Pick an empty column to the right
2. Enter description, base tohit, and the res cap of the archetype in question (its just a safety precaution to prevent numbers from exceeding that limit). Base tohit should be 50% (i.e. 0.5) unless you want to see what happens when you fight Praetorian DE or Praetorians from the Incarnate trials, in which case enter 0.64 (64%). Or whatever you want to compare to.
3. Enter all the defense values. Keep Toxic blank. You can enter the value shown in Mids: the spreadsheet will correctly compute soft-cap limits from the base tohit you set in step 2.
4. Enter all resistance values.
5. Enter base health and you actual average max health. Base health is the correct base for the archetype in question: this will be used to compute the strength of heals. Your average max health is trickier. If you have +health powers that are always up (HPT) or perma (perma DP) that's easy: its just your max health from Mids. If you have non-perma DP, you will have to average based on up time to get an accurate value. If you have non-perma hasten and that's boosting non-perma DP, you'll have to do some calculations, sorry. Or guestimate. Or read this.
6. Enter regen rate straight from Mids.
7. Enter total strength of all heals in % per second. Take all your heals, find the percent heal, calculate cycle time (cast time + recharge time), and divide. That is the %/sec for that heal. Add them up for all heals and enter value in the blank.
8. You can enter the value for DDR (defense debuff resistance) or not: the sheet doesn't do anything with it either way yet. Its there because I was playing around with some ideas involving it.
Down below are the calculated scores. The Sustained, 180 seconds, 60 seconds, and 30 seconds sections are straight from my old proliferation spreadsheet for those familiar with that. Its the amount of incoming damage for each type you can sustain indefinitely, or over a fixed amount of time. Just to clarify, the 60 seconds value is the maximum damage per second incoming you can sustain without dying in 60 seconds. Meaning that level of damage will likely kill you in 61 seconds.
For each damage type, the defense type presumed to work for that damage type is the *better* of the average of all positional types or the specific defense type aligned with that damage type. Toxic is a special case: there's no toxic attack type in use in the game so it only uses the average of all positional types as a guess. Psionics are also special: All psionic damage is split in half, half obeys the normal rules, the other half will *only* use Psionic defense, not positional types (see the values for SR in the first column with powerset data).
I have prefilled in some reference data. My actual current soft-capped SR build is in the first column, and its also by default the reference values for all other normalized metrics. For these purposes, I ignored the scaling resistances. Then I have some of the builds posted in this thread. I also have a prototype Granite build I'm playing around with, and a proposed alternative build someone gave to me. And I have a build labeled "ridiculous" that just has massive numbers in it, so you can see what the ultimate in survivability will likely look like in terms of scores.
At the very top of that bottom section are the composite scores for the four time windows: sustained, 180, 60, and 30 seconds, which are just copied from those sections below. And there is a normalized set of scores below that, with my SR scrapper set to 1.0 (whatever you put in that first column will be the reference value for those scores).
Note, as with all such calculations, this should be a guide, not the final answer on survivability. It does not factor in things like End drain, or the debuff in RTTC (at the moment). It does not factor in powers like mezzes in Dark Armor. You have to use your judgment to decide how to weight the different time windows for survivability. Its a consolidated way to look at the calculable numbers quickly.
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Very Cool Arcanaville Nice for quick and dirty looks at your surviability.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
s/l/f/c/e/n defense softcap
35.4% psi defense 72.8 s/l res 14.6 f/c/e/n res 839% regen-121.78 HP/sec (1 foe in RttC) 3477 HP |
I'll have to review my build to see if I could tweak it a bit.
Romans aren't that scary with SoW up. I've actually waited until ~25% hp, popped SoW, then regenned to full in a full crowd during ITFs. I think at the time I had ~720% regen (w/1 target) and ~3150 hp. My regen took a bit of a hit when they removed the enhancability part of Numina and Regen Tissue.
has anyone hear noticed that the only arguement is how cheap a player is v.s. how great a tank is?
its funny how influence has some much influence when it comes to whats the "best". Im still not sure though if its laziness or cheapness that keeps this as the only real arguement.i mean really with all these different kinds of ways to get loot in this game and we still have to place limitations on things to win so we cheapen it up to have your opinions matter more.
really ? cause its real sad when im the voice of reason around here while the rest of you keep talking to prove a point based on pure unwillingness to work any harder then absoloutely nesscessary
has anyone hear noticed that the only arguement is how cheap a player is v.s. how great a tank is?
its funny how influence has some much influence when it comes to whats the "best" |
Shield, another defense heavy set on the other hand, can earn a reasonable amount of resistance (~50%, iirc?) and can cap s/l res and HP while OwtS is active, making it less susceptible to burst damage.
Also keep in mind this thread has a lot of "survivability focused" builds (most notably the Elec ones) make compromises some (most?) may consider unpalatable. It would fit the bill of highly survivable, but whether or not that alone makes the "best" tank is another story, imo.
has anyone hear noticed that the only arguement is how cheap a player is v.s. how great a tank is?
its funny how influence has some much influence when it comes to whats the "best". Im still not sure though if its laziness or cheapness that keeps this as the only real arguement.i mean really with all these different kinds of ways to get loot in this game and we still have to place limitations on things to win so we cheapen it up to have your opinions matter more. really ? cause its real sad when im the voice of reason around here while the rest of you keep talking to prove a point based on pure unwillingness to work any harder then absoloutely nesscessary |
1. Many players have limited time to spend playing CoH and earning influence and other rewards.
2. Many players would prefer to spend their limited time playing the game rather than playing the market, farming, or whatever else is necessary to accrue large amounts of influence.
3. Players with limited budgets--and there are a hell of a lot more of them than players who can spend multi-billions of influence on builds--have just as much reason to ask "what's the best/most surivable/most damaging tank for X influence" as players who have unlimited budgets.
and finally--and most importantly, IMO,
4. The game has been specifically designed so players who don't have top-end builds can play and be successful. Calling players who have different priorities than you 'lazy' or 'cheap' is just plain ignorant, IMO.
And as an addendum, that sort of argument plays into the hands of players who feel that rewards should be made more easily available with little or no work. If anything, you should applaud those who are to play with a less-than-uber build because it fits their playstyle.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
has anyone hear noticed that the only arguement is how cheap a player is v.s. how great a tank is?
its funny how influence has some much influence when it comes to whats the "best". Im still not sure though if its laziness or cheapness that keeps this as the only real arguement.i mean really with all these different kinds of ways to get loot in this game and we still have to place limitations on things to win so we cheapen it up to have your opinions matter more. really ? cause its real sad when im the voice of reason around here while the rest of you keep talking to prove a point based on pure unwillingness to work any harder then absoloutely nesscessary |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
A few things you seem to have forgotten--or have ignored:
1. Many players have limited time to spend playing CoH and earning influence and other rewards. 2. Many players would prefer to spend their limited time playing the game rather than playing the market, farming, or whatever else is necessary to accrue large amounts of influence. 3. Players with limited budgets--and there are a hell of a lot more of them than players who can spend multi-billions of influence on builds--have just as much reason to ask "what's the best/most surivable/most damaging tank for X influence" as players who have unlimited budgets. and finally--and most importantly, IMO, 4. The game has been specifically designed so players who don't have top-end builds can play and be successful. Calling players who have different priorities than you 'lazy' or 'cheap' is just plain ignorant, IMO. And as an addendum, that sort of argument plays into the hands of players who feel that rewards should be made more easily available with little or no work. If anything, you should applaud those who are to play with a less-than-uber build because it fits their playstyle. |
so lemme get this straight.
your saying that with
vanguard merits
reward merits
hero merits
tickets
tip mishs
weekly strike forces
radio mishs
rwz raids
hami raid
cop and all other trials
ae mishs
all those contacts in the entire game
and i havent even mentioned farming or the market i might add
and god knows what else im missing you cant possibly make any influence what so ever?
really?
and god knows what else im missing you cant possibly make any influence what so ever?
really? |
Can you not understand that? Really?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
so lemme get this straight.
your saying that with vanguard merits reward merits hero merits tickets tip mishs weekly strike forces radio mishs rwz raids hami raid cop and all other trials ae mishs all those contacts in the entire game and i havent even mentioned farming or the market i might add and god knows what else im missing you cant possibly make any influence what so ever? really? |
We have considered the issue of SO builds verses moderate IO builds verses maxed out builds, because those three tiers are significant: SO builds represent both the normal balance point for the sets and performance similar to what people will see leveling up which tends to inform people's judgment of the sets. The difference between "moderate" builds and maxed builds is grey, but clearly there are certain things most players cannot easy stick into a build even with very large effort. The Gladiator +Def proc, for example, is not something you can just easily earn, is difficult to buy, and would take over two months of alignment merit earning to acquire.
In other news I've updated the spreadsheet, adding two things. One: Iggy's Invuln build (because its a nice one), and I added a new sheet to the total workbook that will make some average calculations for the main mitigation sheet a little easier. First, if you punch in Mids recharge for Hasten, it will tell you what Hasten will *really* recharge in, if Hasten is non-perma. It will then also tell you Hasten's average speed boost based on its total cycle time.
It will then feed *that* into two other calculators you can use to determine Aid Self's cycle time and Dull Pain's cycle time given the average buff of Hasten. Again: just type in Mids numbers, and it will tell you what the real cycle time is. If Hasten is perma, numbers will be the same. If Hasten is not perma, they will be a little longer. If you also fill in the Heal strength and +Health strength of the two powers, it then calculates for you the heal/sec for Aid self, the heal/sec for Dull Pain, and the average +health for Dull Pain. Add up the heal/sec and fill in. You'll need to do a tiny bit of math for the average +health: multiply base health by the average +health for DP.
Note: these are averages: true cycle times will vary up and down as Hasten goes up and down. Technically speaking its possible to have non-perma Hasten, have Dull Pain's average recharge time be under 120 seconds, and see actual gaps occasionally in-game. I don't account for that here: this is just an estimator so you can easily plug numbers into the first sheet.
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no i cant.. wanna know why.cause youve been here for 6 years like myself. if you dont wanna focus on one toon in 6 years it doesnt say anything but about the game.
its about you!...YOU have every resource to do whatever you want including a higher placed build.YOU can make it real easy.YOU choose not to.
but whatever you do dont blame the game...its gotten WAY easier now then its ever been and it proves my point even more so.
at the end of the day. it really is the only arguement there is.it really is all about the influence. there simply is no other arguement.
im 39 years old. i work full time. pay bills and go out everyday life. i got the same problems in life as everyone else.so dont use real life as the excuse
dont use your too busy to focus on one toon..ive been here for 6 years and got 36 lvl 50s. gimmie a break if i was focusing on one toon i would still have only the lvl 50 thank you..so stop using that as an excuse.
stop blaming alt itis for it too...no one says they gotta be retired for the next 4 years while you do a 2nd build either.
there simply is one reason you guys say you cant have a high priced build.its influence! and this game has never been easier to gain influence.
no i cant.. wanna know why.cause youve been here for 6 years like myself. if you dont wanna focus on one toon in 6 years it doesnt say anything but about the game.
its about you!...YOU have every resource to do whatever you want including a higher placed build.YOU can make it real easy.YOU choose not to. but whatever you do dont blame the game...its gotten WAY easier now then its ever been and it proves my point even more so. at the end of the day. it really is the only arguement there is.it really is all about the influence. there simply is no other arguement. im 39 years old. i work full time. pay bills and go out everyday life. i got the same problems in life as everyone else.so dont use real life as the excuse dont use your too busy to focus on one toon..ive been here for 6 years and got 36 lvl 50s. gimmie a break if i was focusing on one toon i would still have only the lvl 50 thank you..so stop using that as an excuse. stop blaming alt itis for it too...no one says they gotta be retired for the next 4 years while you do a 2nd build either. there simply is one reason you guys say you cant have a high priced build.its influence! and this game has never been easier to gain influence. |
People play the game differently than you do. Some people don't enjoy farming or playing the market to earn influence. Some people would rather play a tanker that's more survivable out of the box because they don't WANT to invest the time/influence into I/O'ing another set out to get a beast of a build.
Some people value their own time differently than you value yours. It's that simple.
no i cant.. wanna know why.cause youve been here for 6 years like myself. if you dont wanna focus on one toon in 6 years it doesnt say anything but about the game.
its about you!...YOU have every resource to do whatever you want including a higher placed build.YOU can make it real easy.YOU choose not to. but whatever you do dont blame the game...its gotten WAY easier now then its ever been and it proves my point even more so. at the end of the day. it really is the only arguement there is.it really is all about the influence. there simply is no other arguement. im 39 years old. i work full time. pay bills and go out everyday life. i got the same problems in life as everyone else.so dont use real life as the excuse dont use your too busy to focus on one toon..ive been here for 6 years and got 36 lvl 50s. gimmie a break if i was focusing on one toon i would still have only the lvl 50 thank you..so stop using that as an excuse. stop blaming alt itis for it too...no one says they gotta be retired for the next 4 years while you do a 2nd build either. there simply is one reason you guys say you cant have a high priced build.its influence! and this game has never been easier to gain influence. |
For the record, I didn't use to make extreme IO builds, just because. Didn't feel like it. I decided to do so after I19 came out, and since then I've more or less completed three, with a couple more in progress. I don't have problems making these builds myself, nor have I ever complained about making them personally. I'm actually able to build them relatively quickly, compared to most players. In fact, my energy blaster currently has a multi-billion inf build (I didn't bother to even keep track) that just tries to acquire maximum speed. As any min/maxer will tell you, maximum speed on an energy blaster doesn't buy you much: the DPA on all its attacks are too similar. I could have range-capped her for less effort. I did it just because its fun, not for any on-paper performance benefit. By my best estimate, I've put about thirty billion influence into high performance builds since December. My next major project: a *dual build* Stone tanker that has an optimized multi-billion inf Granite build *and* an optimized multi-billion inf toggle build. Just because it sounds like a fun challenge.
But I acknowledge the fact that these builds are not in the reach of many players, and certainly not for multiple alts. That's reality. To believe otherwise is frankly silly.
Instead of ranting randomly, why not post one of these ultra-expensive Fiery Aura builds you claim is possible to build just as strong as all other tanker primaries. We have people actually posting real builds to compare the secondaries against, which allows for meaningful discussion about the potential strengths of the individual primaries without having to talk hypothetically or anecdotally. You asserted its possible for Fiery Aura to be just as strong as all other tanker primaries if only people were willing to spend enough influence, which is easy to get. Prove it with a posted build.
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dont use your too busy to focus on one toon..ive been here for 6 years and got 36 lvl 50s. gimmie a break if i was focusing on one toon i would still have only the lvl 50 thank you..so stop using that as an excuse.
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there simply is one reason you guys say you cant have a high priced build.its influence! and this game has never been easier to gain influence. |
We get that you play a high-end Fire Tanker and that you play it very well. I happen to think that at the high end, Fire Tankers are among the best in the game -- given good Inspiration management and given the growing emphasis on large-team content (where buffs are generally plentiful). It would be misleading near to the point of irresponsibility to say in a defensive comparison that Fire Tankers are anything but mediocre, though.
You simply can't assume that everyone who goes through character creation is going to put the maximum possible investment into a build (or that they start at level 50, for that matter).
Your attempts to pat yourself on the back by inventing shortcomings in other people are growing stale. It seems like every time I come on this forum, I see you beating that drum in one topic or another.
Arcanaville you made my point for me
I hear so many people tell me Fire tanks are great and I never die on mine and blah, blah, blah. I was with one of those the other night - I was on my 42 fire tank (over a billion spent so far + normal rewards cashed in) and they were saying I tank the ITF just fine (they were 50+1)!
I said not me in 2 runs I have died 9 times - they said your build is bad. I did not argue - I just decided to wait and see. Guess, what? I died LESS than they did and I was the Primary Alpha tank. I only died 2 times and once to be fair was a Self Destruct + Rise to Battle self nuke during an ambush.
Yes, I taunt and move and try to not just belly up and fight or the Romans just chop you down. I don't have Defense debuff resistance - so 2 or 3 Romans hit me and all my defense is gone. This is a fact, I am realistic and see that my tank if they could access defense debuff resistance could be a solid tank - without it I am at the whims of a couple of swords or other debuffs to floor me.
I hear the I farm the wall stuff too - I will say it again - my Fire/Dark corr is a better tank in almost every case than my Fire Tank. -To hit is nearly as good as an armor set as most tanks get as it basically equals defense. I then have the Resistance armor from Ghost widow because - I don't get hit and when I do I have an awesome self heal that almost never misses and resistance at near cap levels that means when I farm the wall I can herd 3 large roman groups safely.
On a fire/dark corr i can and have defeated the crystal spawn and the resulting ambush for an 8 man team SOLO. I can walk up the road towards Rommie and take one side SOLO. I can and have cleared the towers in an ITF SOLO. My fire tank can't do this. I want to see the exact build and I would love to see a gameplay video.
If you doubt me on ANY of these claims I would be more than happy to show you.
I don't think build investment is at all important when comparing primaries to each other(except Ice Armor-Elec Armor). In terms of being "good enough" to take on current content however, build investment is definitely a factor.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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its about you!...YOU have every resource to do whatever you want including a higher placed build.YOU can make it real easy.YOU choose not to.
but whatever you do dont blame the game...its gotten WAY easier now then its ever been and it proves my point even more so. |
That does not mean it is invalid to discuss builds that only require 1 billion or less influence. That does not mean all we should talk about are unlimited influence builds because some small percentage of the player base chooses to play in a way that makes having things easy.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Sustainable: 35.43 26.36 18.80
180 seconds: 24.24 17.71 14.31
60 seconds: 17.39 12.42 11.55
30 seconds: 14.12 9.89 10.24
The Willpower numbers beat *everyone*, before I even add in SoW. Why? Two reasons. One: your build nearly perma-caps health. That's a huge advantage that partically makes up for your lesser resistances. Two: the composite scores presume you're going to see a constant barrage of all the damage types, 66% smash/lethal, and all the rest evenly distributed (with half the psionic damage being non-positional). This means ultra-high protection in one area won't compensate for massive weakness in another: think of it as leaks in a dam. A lot of small leaks is better than one big one. If you have one big one, it doesn't matter if you seal the other leaks completely. Willpower's performance is a bit more even, which means it doesn't have the one big leak in damage.
Consider, these are the damage numbers for the 30 second window for Willpower:
Smash/Lethal: 8056.46
Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative: 2490.52
Toxic: 741.24
Psi/Non-positional Psi: 1955.16
Compare to the Electric build:
Smash/Lethal: 8996.90
Fire/Cold: 1161.16
Energy: 16464.33
Negative: 3292.87
Toxic: 505.16
Psi: 830.53
Non-positional Psi: 328.18
And Invuln:
Smash/Lethal: 17635.53
Fire/Cold: 3019.78
Energy/Negative: 2676.10
Toxic: 546.14
Psi: 328.18
Non-positional Psi: 328.18
In a completely smash/lethal environment, Invuln crushes them both. But in an environment where only 5.7% of the total damage is psionics, Invuln has problems compared to Willpower that blows them both away.
One issue with my composite score is that its a bit naive relative to true damage type distribution. It assumes that s/l is 66% of all damage (which is probably close to the truth) and the rest is evenly distributed (probably not so close to the truth). But since we're talking about slicing up 34% of the damage in different ways, that's usually not a bit deal. And actually psionic damage is probably under-represented, which is actually depressing Willpower's scores relative to the other two sets.
So why do so many people think Willpower isn't in the same class as Invuln or Electric? Probably because few people have seen a health capped defensive soft-capped Willpower Tanker with 665% regen. And that's with one thing in RTTC. With RTTC maxed out, its a ridiculous 1096% regen. Its also true that these numbers don't factor in endurance drain as mitigation, although that's probably not strong enough to shift the numbers radically without Power Sink.
Plug numbers in from this build arcana? It's about 124hp/s with just 1 target in RTTC.
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