Allow me to suggest a syllogism:
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
And when it comes down to it, you can't really please any one person all of the time. (There shouldn't really be anyone who loves EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THE GAME ALWAYS. Heck, even I can find a few things I don't like. For example, Bases. Want more love. Next.)
Hence, no matter who you are, prepare to be disappointed at some point. Keep expectations reasonable, and hope for the best.
Take note: the Devs cannot have it in their minds that they want to please everyone. To do so is to invite heartburn and emotional burnout. They have to make a game that a lot of people will like, and other stuff too, which is too complicated to go into here, and beyond my ken.
So if you think every decision the Devs make should jibe with your idea of how the game should go, I suggest you ... not think that. Learn to deal with the fact that not everything in the game (like in Life) will adhere to your personal standards and qualifications - you will be a happier person for it.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Originally Posted by galadiman
Allow me to suggest a syllogism:
You can't please all of the people all of the time. And when it comes down to it, you can't really please any one person all of the time. (There shouldn't really be anyone who loves EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THE GAME ALWAYS. Heck, even I can find a few things I don't like. For example, Bases. Want more love. Next.) Hence, no matter who you are, prepare to be disappointed at some point. Keep expectations reasonable, and hope for the best. |
Paging Golden Girl to the thread. Golden Girl to the thread please.
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Back as a Level 1, we picked an Origin, say, Science. Your actual origin and backstory was up to you. You filled in the details. |
Originally Posted by Chyll
I'm in the same boat with the OP, and I've posted a few times now similarly.
I was excited for Incarnate stuff - eager even. But, now that it is here it feels wrong to me. It doesn't feel like CoX... and sadly is coloring my entire play experience from level 1 on a newbie, to my level 40 striving to win the good fight, and my level shifted incarnates. It is there, like a high pitched tone on a bad phone line. Logic is out the window, no matter how I've tried to get it back. At this point it is a gut response to what has been done so far... No, I cannot say what I would do different. I like the structure (well, Lore is kinda silly) of the implementation. But is is linear, it doesn't allow any sort of choice/freedom. The game mechanic, IMO, has been poorly supported by story and narrative structure. And this grates and disappoints terribly. |
For me, it is now as though if you pick Science, then your character is an escaped, failed experiment by Crey, period. That is the only story allowed. You can merrily ignore it, but it is irksome. That is pretty much the ground I covered in Where Is The Amorality of the Well Taking Us? There are no choices, just a deific Well.
And as you say, there is just a "wrong feel" going on.
And, as noted, you can avoid IOs and such and still participate successfully in the same content any other player can. Now, unless you go the Well route, you cannot participate in some content.
As others have said, I like being a Hero in a City of Heroes. I would prefer not to be shoehorned into the Well business as it is being presented. Of course, I would also prefer that Troy Hickman and David Nakayama would helm a revived City of Heroes comic, too, for what that is worth.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really, you have about 4 or 5 options in regards to dealing with the Incarnate content.
1) Dive into it and play what is offered as you see fit. 2) Completely ignore it and keep doing the things you've been enjoying so far. 3) Play a little bit of it and continue doing other stuff as well. 4) Take a break or quit altogether because you don't like it. 5) Come to the forums and complain bitterly to anyone who will listen that the devs are wasting their time and ruining the game, because they decided to focus on something you don't personally like. Judging by the content of recent threads on the subject, it's pretty clear what the most popular reaction has been so far.... |
6) Come to the forums and attempt to have an open and frank discussion about something that concerns you and try to determine if it is a flawed solo viewpoint, or one that is shared - perhaps even promote moving towards something everyone would appreciate and be able to enjoy.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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No, because if I wanted to run repetitive Raids for concept-breaking loot I'd be playing WoW.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really, you have about 4 or 5 options in regards to dealing with the Incarnate content.
1) Dive into it and play what is offered as you see fit. |
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| 2) Completely ignore it and keep doing the things you've been enjoying so far. |
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| 3) Play a little bit of it and continue doing other stuff as well. |
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| 4) Take a break or quit altogether because you don't like it. |
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| 5) Come to the forums and complain bitterly to anyone who will listen that the devs are wasting their time and ruining the game, because they decided to focus on something you don't personally like. |
The sad thing is, something I've come to realise during this latest round of discussion of the incarnate system, is I'm now looking at CoH the way I look at WoW. I enjoy levelling in WoW, but I've never touched their endgame raiding and never will. The game doesn't start at the level cap, for me, the game ends at the level cap. Same here, now.
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I totally agree with this. And if it were presented this way even 10% of the time, it would be terrific. But 90% of the time, it's|
Originally Posted by Chyll
or
6) Come to the forums and attempt to have an open and frank discussion about something that concerns you and try to determine if it is a flawed solo viewpoint, or one that is shared - perhaps even promote moving towards something everyone would appreciate and be able to enjoy. |
I hate X!
or
X is ruining the game for everyone!
or
Why did they change X? It was already perfect! Idiots!!
or
This game has never been about X. Complete waste of time to even address it. Don't bother with X, no one likes it anyway.
or
Just because (other game) does X, we should make our X more like (other game)'s X!
or
X eats kittens! It is Ebil Incarnate (no relation) and it is making my hair recede! Kill it with an axe!
or
Working on X is taking away time from the REAL problem, Y!! I like Y, and hate X! MOAR Y!
You'll notice a trend here - a lack of perspective, otherwise known as self-centered behavior. The post you showed displayed reasonable adult thinking behind a considered viewpoint. More of that would go a long way.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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I got beaten to the punch, it seems.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
or
6) Come to the forums and attempt to have an open and frank discussion about something that concerns you and try to determine if it is a flawed solo viewpoint, or one that is shared - perhaps even promote moving towards something everyone would appreciate and be able to enjoy. |
Yes, how dare we have opinions! How dare we not sit down, shut up and take our lumps like good little munchkins!
How dare we give feedback and critiscism while still playing and paying. And still having fun, might I add. Theres always more options, there is never 'black and white'. Even in forum posts.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
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You seem to also be ignoring a large proportion of people that have given calm, collected and discussed feedback and critique. And, as always, the people that do try to make a reasoned arguement are shouted down for not 'sitting down and dealing with it' or other drivel like that which gets touted out time and again.|
Originally Posted by galadiman
I totally agree with this. And if it were presented this way even 10% of the time, it would be terrific. But 90% of the time, it's
I hate X! or X is ruining the game for everyone! or Why did they change X? It was already perfect! Idiots!! or This game has never been about X. Complete waste of time to even address it. Don't bother with X, no one likes it anyway. or Just because (other game) does X, we should make our X more like (other game)'s X! or X eats kittens! It is Ebil Incarnate (no relation) and it is making my hair recede! Kill it with an axe! or Working on X is taking away time from the REAL problem, Y!! I like Y, and hate X! MOAR Y! You'll notice a trend here - a lack of perspective, otherwise known as self-centered behavior. The post you showed displayed reasonable adult thinking behind a considered viewpoint. More of that would go a long way. |
In a sense, a lot of posters here are like your 1) point; "Posters are ruining the forums, argh!" simply because others have a different opinion.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You forgot 6b) Come to the forums and have your open and frank discussions constantly hijacked and derailed by people who obstinately refuse to understand why you are dissatisfied and why you feel your dissatisfaction (which, as it turns out, isn't just you) is symptomatic of a problem with the direction the game is taking.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
6) Come to the forums and attempt to have an open and frank discussion about something that concerns you and try to determine if it is a flawed solo viewpoint, or one that is shared - perhaps even promote moving towards something everyone would appreciate and be able to enjoy.
|
Oh, and 6c) Have your open and frank discussions constantly trolled and spammed with the same inane garbage over and over that amounts to "haha, I get a cookie and you don't, now STFU." And for once I'm not just referring to one person.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I think - well, fell - that this is still in some way a holdover from Incarnates initially being mentioned as an Epic AT. Epics do precisely that - you're a specific origin, with a specific storyline given by contacts specific to you. It can be done well (Khelds, going from current status to Kheldian history (Winslowe's Cosmotron) explaining why they're fighting the Nictus, to the Nictus plans for the Earth - and thwarting the same) to ... not so well (the VEAT storyline.) |
Originally Posted by Melancton
Back as a Level 1, we picked an Origin, say, Science. Your actual origin and backstory was up to you. You filled in the details.
For me, it is now as though if you pick Science, then your character is an escaped, failed experiment by Crey, period. That is the only story allowed. You can merrily ignore it, but it is irksome. That is pretty much the ground I covered in Where Is The Amorality of the Well Taking Us? There are no choices, just a deific Well. And as you say, there is just a "wrong feel" going on. And, as noted, you can avoid IOs and such and still participate successfully in the same content any other player can. Now, unless you go the Well route, you cannot participate in some content. |
As an actual EAT, the whole "Well" schtick would be perfect. Learn about it, get empowered by it, battle for or against it, find what's made it 'insane' and cure or stop it.
As a game system... not so much. It feels tacked on, it's running roughshod over our own character concepts, and it feels forced.
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I've posted a few times too. I had to highlight a part of your post that struck me. That is dead on. It just seems contrary to what I perceive to be the game. It seems contrived. It doesn't seem like a comic story. It just feels like more of the horrid writing we've been getting since Issue 15 (Reichsman anyone?). |
Originally Posted by Chyll
I'm in the same boat with the OP, and I've posted a few times now similarly.
I was excited for Incarnate stuff - eager even. But, now that it is here it feels wrong to me. It doesn't feel like CoX... and sadly is coloring my entire play experience from level 1 on a newbie, to my level 40 striving to win the good fight, and my level shifted incarnates. It is there, like a high pitched tone on a bad phone line. Logic is out the window, no matter how I've tried to get it back. At this point it is a gut response to what has been done so far... Since it hit, I've played less and less. At this point I haven't even logged in for nearly three weeks. No, I cannot say what I would do different. I like the structure (well, Lore is kinda silly) of the implementation. But is is linear, it doesn't allow any sort of choice/freedom. The game mechanic, IMO, has been poorly supported by story and narrative structure. And this grates and disappoints terribly. It has actually gotten worse as I've filled my spare game time with Mass Effect and Dragon Age - shining examples of moving down the same path with choices. |
Anyway, I've found the same thing. I am finding myself and my limited play time drawn away to other games. I just hope they come to their senses and change directions.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I think - well, fell - that this is still in some way a holdover from Incarnates initially being mentioned as an Epic AT. Epics do precisely that - you're a specific origin, with a specific storyline given by contacts specific to you. It can be done well (Khelds, going from current status to Kheldian history (Winslowe's Cosmotron) explaining why they're fighting the Nictus, to the Nictus plans for the Earth - and thwarting the same) to ... not so well (the VEAT storyline.)
As an actual EAT, the whole "Well" schtick would be perfect. Learn about it, get empowered by it, battle for or against it, find what's made it 'insane' and cure or stop it. As a game system... not so much. It feels tacked on, it's running roughshod over our own character concepts, and it feels forced. |
I know there are many kinds of players of this game. It seems to me those that object to the system are those that put the emphasis on their character concepts. Those that think it is great and fun, seem like the kind of player that hits the random button for a costume, and is more concerned with challenge and power progression. I recognize there may be players that fall a bit into both camps. But for the most part it seems that players that care about the concept of their character are just being ignored.
And this is the key element that feels wrong. From 1 - 50 we can make any character we want. If we need to hand wave or ignore a mission or two then no problem, especially since the entire game revolves around giving us the ability to make our character play and look like we want them to. Now come Incarnates and suddenly all that is gone. The worst example is of course the Lore ability. But that isn't the only offender. We could start with why our Natural origin martial artist or the tech savy inventor are suddenly getting powers from some watery tart.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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What part of an evil mirror version of a signature hero ruling an alternative world with an iron fist and using a source of cosmic power to attemtpt to conquer the multiverse seems out of place in a comicbook game? |
Originally Posted by Draugadan
That is dead on. It just seems contrary to what I perceive to be the game. It seems contrived. It doesn't seem like a comic story.
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| I just hope they come to their senses and change directions. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I knew that before you started posting it all over. Yes, I know what the next two trials are. Doesn't change my mind or my hope that they come to their sense.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
After I20, the next 2 Incarnate Trials are an attack on Anti-Matter's reactors, and a fight with the Praetorian Hamidon in the Underground
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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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They have - that's why those are the next 2 Trials |
Originally Posted by Draugadan
I knew that before you started posting it all over. Yes, I know what the next two trials are. Doesn't change my mind or my hope that they come to their sense.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I wish I had a job that let me post all day. Maybe I'd have thousands of posts too. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They have - that's why those are the next 2 Trials
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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Then go study and try to learn something while we try to have a well thought out converation. Little winks don't make the comments less snide. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm at college
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One line troll comments do not help the conversation.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Odd how that works. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Oh, and 6c) Have your open and frank discussions constantly trolled and spammed with the same inane garbage over and over that amounts to "haha, I get a cookie and you don't, now STFU." And for once I'm not just referring to one person.
|
The people who wanted a real end game had been dealing with exactly that for over 6 years.
It sucks to be told what you want doesn't matter, doesn't it?
Well, I guess now you know how the people who wanted an end game felt for all that time.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I can do both - multi-tasking isn't an Incarnate ability |
Originally Posted by Draugadan
Then go study and try to learn something while we try to have a well thought out converation.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I haven't liked the game's direction for a while now. It's become obsessed with delivering new systems and not new story content. The "Coming Storm" has been coming for a very long time; the Honoree was captured in Issue 10 and we only see Vanguard has him in custody in Issue 19. That's quite the snail pace. The Rularuu, the 5th's "temporal war", there are lots of threads that are dangling and begging to be picked. But now it's all about Praetoria, and I'm getting quite tired of it.
And now, content is being split within issues. Rather than get 4 trials at release, for some variety, we're getting two trials now, two in a couple of months. I don't like that. If it were 4 trials now, 4 trials in a couple of months, well, okay, that's understandable. But when it comes to content, this issue is delivering 2 TFs (and one of them is really forgettable and needs work) and 2 trials. I can be done with all the content in this issue in 3 hours.
I was happier with the game back when it was 15 guys doing it, than now that NCsoft did its reinvestment. Issue 10 is still my favorite issue content-wise: zone revamp, four story arcs, a task force, a raid, and a world event. Since then, we got weapon and power customization, flashback, purple IOs, PVP revamp, architect, dopplegangers, ultra mode, side switching, incarnates, and raids; but no issue has been as content-heavy (GR excluded; it's not content that my existing characters can do). Even the new arcs are about the Praetorian invasion. What, did all the Primal villains go to sleep?
I blame Architect quite a bit for this. It's like Paragon decided that "regular" story arcs were pointless to do since people could make very similar things in the AE. But the AE won't tell me canon stories that reveal more of the universe I've been playing.
For me, the last several issues have felt as if I was watching a TV series for 4 years, a good TV series at that, and then suddenly it was replaced by something different, and the creators said "we'll continue the old series someday, but don't worry, you can still create lots of fanfic based on it".
The one mission that I like the most in the past 3 issues is the tip mission where Frosfire and Ms. Thystle ask for my help. Why? Because I know Frostfire from years ago, I handed him his butt way back in the first week I was playing. And now he's redeemed himself and got a girlfriend. I'm more emotionally invested in that than in the one-dimensional evil Fascist Praetors from another dimension.
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
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But the other 2 Trials aren't ready yet |
Originally Posted by Leandro
And now, content is being split within issues. Rather than get 4 trials at release, for some variety, we're getting two trials now, two in a couple of months. I don't like that. If it were 4 trials now, 4 trials in a couple of months, well, okay, that's understandable.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Issue 19 was released on November 30th. It's almost been four months. And yet, only 2 trials are ready? Come on. It shouldn't take 2 months to perfect one trial. If anything, I'd say 4 months to release 4 trials is fair; one month of development for each trial. If it takes 2 months to fine-tune each trial, the process is not efficient in the slightest.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But the other 2 Trials aren't ready yet
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www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
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So delay the issue til they are.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But the other 2 Trials aren't ready yet
|
(Yeah, I know how that'd be recieved...)
Leandro summed up my feelings pretty succinctly. I feel exactly the same about being more connected to the single Frostfire redemption story than I am any of the Praetors and compatriots. After 7 years of putting him in his place, he's finally matured and started to grow. To me, this was one of the 1st 'game changers' that could make it seem like my individual Heroes were actually making a difference without much imaginating.
We 'showed him the light' so to speak. Made fighting by his side all the more satisfying. Cole on the other hand, though I initially really liked the whole GR storyline and the way it fleshed out the Praetors more, the longer it goes on though and to a lesser degree the more emphasis is put on them by the Dev's the more hollow it all starts to feel.
What really killed any interest in Incarnate content for me was making the Well of the furies a sentient being. You'd have thought the Furies might have mentioned that to Marcus when they visited him in Paragon all those years ago...
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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In fairness to the Dev's, it's not just 2 TF's. It's multiple new systems that require extensive testing so we aren't hit with game crashing bugs on live.
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Originally Posted by Leandro
Issue 19 was released on November 30th. It's almost been four months. And yet, only 2 trials are ready? Come on. It shouldn't take 2 months to perfect one trial. If anything, I'd say 4 months to release 4 trials is fair; one month of development for each trial. If it takes 2 months to fine-tune each trial, the process is not efficient in the slightest.
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Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
1) Dive into it and play what is offered as you see fit.
2) Completely ignore it and keep doing the things you've been enjoying so far.
3) Play a little bit of it and continue doing other stuff as well.
4) Take a break or quit altogether because you don't like it.
5) Come to the forums and complain bitterly to anyone who will listen that the devs are wasting their time and ruining the game, because they decided to focus on something you don't personally like.
Judging by the content of recent threads on the subject, it's pretty clear what the most popular reaction has been so far....
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